RE: Can't get no love from me | PH Footnote

[Dickie-D]

ChocolateFrog said:

As a 17 year old I was on about £4.50ph (double on Sundays).

What's the minimum wage these days? £9.something, so less than double, yet the same stuff is atleast 4x more expensive.

The National Minimum Wage is £6.83 for 18-20 year olds, increasing to £7.49 from April. As an 18 year old in 1989, I was paid £7.50 per hour. That's progress for you.

[Rumdoodle]

Dickie-D said:

ChocolateFrog said:

As a 17 year old I was on about £4.50ph (double on Sundays).

What's the minimum wage these days? £9.something, so less than double, yet the same stuff is atleast 4x more expensive.

The National Minimum Wage is £6.83 for 18-20 year olds, increasing to £7.49 from April. As an 18 year old in 1989, I was paid £7.50 per hour. That's progress for you.

But that can't have been a typical minimum wage in 1989. I employed school leavers in the mid 90s and started them on £3 an hour. You must have been a good negotiator!

[Dickie-D]

Rumdoodle said:

But that can't have been a typical minimum wage in 1989. I employed school leavers in the mid 90s and started them on £3 an hour. You must have been a good negotiator!

There wasn't any negotiation because I was far too green for that; I just had a half-hour interview at a temp agency in Covent Garden. They regularly found me post room work with their clients: delivering and collecting internal office mail, using franking machines to prepare sacks of letters for delivery to post offices, etc.

They charged the clients £15 per hour and I received half of that. I was utterly clueless, with no prior work experience other than an occasional paper round, and even recall feeling slightly hard done by because I was only receiving 50% of what they charged. I had no one to compare earnings with because all my friends were at university.

[What The Deuces]

Cars and fuel are too expensive for youngsters

Early 2000's you could buy a brand new car with a years insurance for £5k

Cars today don't give young people freedom, they are a millstone round their neck

[Dickie-D]

aestivator said:

AC43 said:

I grew up in a boring provincial Scottish town...

My son's now 18 and living in London

That's not a fair comparison though is it. I dare say growing up in a boring provincial town, in Scotland or elsewhere, is conducive to wanting a car or other means of transport ASAP.

Likewise for those who grew up in London even 30 years ago, I doubt a car was of such great interest - the tube has been there since before cars were a thing.

I don't think location necessarily has that much to do with it. I grew up in outer London in the 1970s and I've enjoyed the freedom allowed by cars since I learned to drive at 17. Most of my London friends felt the same way and still do. I still live in London, never use buses and avoid the Tube unless I need to travel into central London, which is a place for work and entertainment but not living.

In general, if I can't drive to an intended destination and park for free (or at a reasonable cost), I just don't go. I'd rather inhale petrol fumes than other people's discarded skin cells and viruses on the Tube. If I couldn't just go for a drive in the countryside on a whim, I would start losing the will to live.

[Wadeski]

Dickie-D said:

aestivator said:

AC43 said:

I grew up in a boring provincial Scottish town...

My son's now 18 and living in London

That's not a fair comparison though is it. I dare say growing up in a boring provincial town, in Scotland or elsewhere, is conducive to wanting a car or other means of transport ASAP.

Likewise for those who grew up in London even 30 years ago, I doubt a car was of such great interest - the tube has been there since before cars were a thing.

I don't think location necessarily has that much to do with it. I grew up in outer London in the 1970s and I've enjoyed the freedom allowed by cars since I learned to drive at 17. Most of my London friends felt the same way and still do. I still live in London, never use buses and avoid the Tube unless I need to travel into central London, which is a place for work and entertainment but not living.

In general, if I can't drive to an intended destination and park for free (or at a reasonable cost), I just don't go. I'd rather inhale petrol fumes than other people's discarded skin cells and viruses on the Tube. If I couldn't just go for a drive in the countryside on a whim, I would start losing the will to live.

OK Jeremy Clarkson, but you can recognize that young people in big cities like London have always had more options? Very few of my friends had cars at teenagers, most rode the bus / tube or biked. Some got 50cc or 125cc scooters. And this was 20 years ago!

[stuart100]

Dickie-D said:

Rumdoodle said:

But that can't have been a typical minimum wage in 1989. I employed school leavers in the mid 90s and started them on £3 an hour. You must have been a good negotiator!

There wasn't any negotiation because I was far too green for that; I just had a half-hour interview at a temp agency in Covent Garden. They regularly found me post room work with their clients: delivering and collecting internal office mail, using franking machines to prepare sacks of letters for delivery to post offices, etc.

They charged the clients £15 per hour and I received half of that. I was utterly clueless, with no prior work experience other than an occasional paper round, and even recall feeling slightly hard done by because I was only receiving 50% of what they charged. I had no one to compare earnings with because all my friends were at university.

I was on about £2.80 an hour at a Whitbread restaurant. £3.50 at a girls school in the late 90s. McDondalds were payinh £3.xx or so. Sounds like you had temporary work and a very good wage to reflect. Your £7.50 accoding to the BOE calculator is about £18 per hour. That is not average wage.

[Gordon Hill]

In the late 1980's I was earning more as a coal mining deputy than my 25 year old daughter does now as a qualified vetinary nurse, much more. Most people would be horrified at working a mile underground but I actually enjoyed it. She works full time as does her partner but after paying for childcare, rent, extortionate fuel bills and the like they are barely scraping by. Something has gone very, very wrong here.

Luckily I'm not starting a family or having to fork out to a greedy private landlord but I do feel for the younger generation who can only dream about having the things that I've taken for granted all my life, yes I've grafted hard for over 40 years and have generous private pensions but I can't ever remember having to go without when I was their age, I had a car at 17, own house at 20, mortgage free at 45, they'll e working until they're 140 and still have nothing to show for it.

[Dickie-D]

Wadeski said:

Dickie-D said:

aestivator said:

That's not a fair comparison though is it. I dare say growing up in a boring provincial town, in Scotland or elsewhere, is conducive to wanting a car or other means of transport ASAP.

Likewise for those who grew up in London even 30 years ago, I doubt a car was of such great interest - the tube has been there since before cars were a thing.

I don't think location necessarily has that much to do with it. I grew up in outer London in the 1970s and I've enjoyed the freedom allowed by cars since I learned to drive at 17. Most of my London friends felt the same way and still do. I still live in London, never use buses and avoid the Tube unless I need to travel into central London, which is a place for work and entertainment but not living.

In general, if I can't drive to an intended destination and park for free (or at a reasonable cost), I just don't go. I'd rather inhale petrol fumes than other people's discarded skin cells and viruses on the Tube. If I couldn't just go for a drive in the countryside on a whim, I would start losing the will to live.

OK Jeremy Clarkson, but you can recognize that young people in big cities like London have always had more options? Very few of my friends had cars at teenagers, most rode the bus / tube or biked. Some got 50cc or 125cc scooters. And this was 20 years ago!

Of course. I didn't own a car as a teenager and neither did my friends. We used public transport, or cycled, and borrowed a car when we could, if we were lucky enough to be included on the insurance of a family runabout. Now that I think about it, I wasn't particularly interested in learning to drive at 17 but my dad insisted, as did most of my friends' parents. It was that initial taste of the freedom to travel further afield, and the ability to go to places that weren't so accessible by public transport that got me interested in cars.

[Talksteer]

What The Deuces said:

Cars and fuel are too expensive for youngsters

Early 2000's you could buy a brand new car with a years insurance for £5k

Cars today don't give young people freedom, they are a millstone round their neck

Cheapest new car is now £12.5k, this equates to about £5.95k in 1998 relative to wages.

It is also objectively a much better car.

Relatively few young people end up driving new cars anyway.

[E90_M3Ross]

Talksteer said:

What The Deuces said:

Cars and fuel are too expensive for youngsters

Early 2000's you could buy a brand new car with a years insurance for £5k

Cars today don't give young people freedom, they are a millstone round their neck

Cheapest new car is now £12.5k, this equates to about £5.95k in 1998 relative to wages.

It is also objectively a much better car.

Relatively few young people end up driving new cars anyway.

But 2nd hand cars are also, seemingly, more expensive now, although I may be wrong.

Interestingly, I came across an old photo the other day, in the background was a petrol station where it was 94.9p/L for petrol, this was back in, I believe, 2008. I put it into the inflation calculator and it came out at the equivalent being £1.55/L or so......

[Talksteer]

E90_M3Ross said:

Talksteer said:

What The Deuces said:

Cars and fuel are too expensive for youngsters

Early 2000's you could buy a brand new car with a years insurance for £5k

Cars today don't give young people freedom, they are a millstone round their neck

Cheapest new car is now £12.5k, this equates to about £5.95k in 1998 relative to wages.

It is also objectively a much better car.

Relatively few young people end up driving new cars anyway.

But 2nd hand cars are also, seemingly, more expensive now, although I may be wrong.

Interestingly, I came across an old photo the other day, in the background was a petrol station where it was 94.9p/L for petrol, this was back in, I believe, 2008. I put it into the inflation calculator and it came out at the equivalent being £1.55/L or so......

Second hand cars depreciate less because people have finally realized that cars last much longer.

The old early 90's rule used to be 1/3 lost in the first year and 2/3rds by end of year 3. Which is crazy for a product which is expected to last about 16 years on average. That said I got my old M6 for 1/3 of its purchase price at 4 years old so there is still monster deprecation if you know where to look!

So yes the same amount of wage means you get an older car for a fixed percentage, but then it has more years of useful life in it

[porsche9Martin]

The last 20 odd years have pressed teenagers into university for no good reason. I know, my youngest son is one. He had a blast studying music tech etc and became a chef. Anyway, no parking on campus and living in halls negates the need for a car. He’s 29 now and still doesn’t drive. He still beats me on any driving game on the Xbox though.
My older son however wanted me to put neons under my BMW M5 e39 when he was 15 sixteen years ago. I blame Fast and furious but he started driving and living at 17. 1.2 Corsa by the way

[Hammersia]

Alias218 said:

I’m mid-thirties so whether you’d put me in the young adult bracket is up for debate (I’d say probably not).

I’m finding myself less and less interested in cars as times goes on partly because most new cars are so artificial that they just feel a little try hard (farting exhausts abound round my way), and partly because driving in the south east in general is such a bore. It’s too busy, too heavily policed by cameras, and too full of people who seem to have forgotten how to drive in a competent fashion over the last 5 years or so.

It’s boring, and it’s frustrating.

I used to love driving and would frequently go out just to drive. Now, I just can’t be arsed with it all.

Indeed, I'm very slightly older but living in the South East I feel the same.

I always win karting night evenings at work.

I'm a hero on any red letter day track or rally event.

I have innate mechanical sympathy and a god given talent for driving.

I have money.

And I have zero desire ever to go out on the public highway for the joy of driving.

[Fastlane]

Hammersia said:

Indeed, I'm very slightly older but living in the South East I feel the same.

I always win karting night evenings at work.

I'm a hero on any red letter day track or rally event.

I have innate mechanical sympathy and a god given talent for driving.

I have money.

And I have zero desire ever to go out on the public highway for the joy of driving.

And your only fault is your modesty...

[CABC]

Hammersia said:

Indeed, I'm very slightly older but living in the South East I feel the same.

I always win karting night evenings at work.

I'm a hero on any red letter day track or rally event.

I have innate mechanical sympathy and a god given talent for driving.

I have money.

And I have zero desire ever to go out on the public highway for the joy of driving.

SidewaysSi, where have you been?

[Mr Peel]

Lots of good points raised in this thread. Never a simple explanation. However I suspect this is one of the most significant factors in the decline.

Gordon Hill said:

Luckily I'm not starting a family or having to fork out to a greedy private landlord but I do feel for the younger generation who can only dream about having the things that I've taken for granted all my life, yes I've grafted hard for over 40 years and have generous private pensions but I can't ever remember having to go without when I was their age, I had a car at 17, own house at 20, mortgage free at 45, they'll e working until they're 140 and still have nothing to show for it.

[Lil_Red_GTV]

There are clearly many factors at play, particularly financial, but I do think there is something about the amount of distractions and diversions that modern kids have, that means they can easily fill their time without leaving the house.

When I think back to my teenage years in the 1990s, there really wasn’t a lot to do. 5 TV channels that showed things at fixed times, basic computer games with only local multiplayer, and magazines. Nowadays there is endless on-demand content, and you can get lost in youtube on whatever your niche interest is for days. That’s before you even start proactively engaging with social media, which can be full-time activity in itself. My son can’t seem to stick at any one thing, and I suspect it is because he simply has too many options. He is never bored in the way that I remember being as a kid.

I used to think or hope that video games would be the saviour of the car, with titles like Forza and Gran Turismo inspiring a new generation of car enthusiasts. Now it feels like those games aren’t saving the car, but replacing it. Why spend hundreds of pounds a month on an actual car to sit in traffic, when you can have more fun in a perfect virtual automotive fantasy world for a fraction of the cost?

[Gordon Hill]

Fastlane said:

Hammersia said:

Indeed, I'm very slightly older but living in the South East I feel the same.

I always win karting night evenings at work.

I'm a hero on any red letter day track or rally event.

I have innate mechanical sympathy and a god given talent for driving.

I have money.

And I have zero desire ever to go out on the public highway for the joy of driving.

And your only fault is your modesty...

If this isn't ironic (and I strongly suspect that it is), then widen those doors, a head the size of a small moon is about to enter, wow, just wow.

[TDW911]

Most 18yr olds I know have little interest in driving which is a shame as I remember fondly saving £700 to buy a rusty old Fiesta and then spending £50 in Halfords on huge speakers. Fun times….
… speaking of which, if you want fun and electric you can’t go far wrong with a BMW i3S. It’s a funny looking thing but an absolutely brilliant piece of engineering and great fun to drive around town. Looking at it compared to many EV’s I can’t help but think they’ve gone backwards. I put that down to OEM’s being interested in making money. The i3 was clearly a financial disaster for BMW with extensive use of carbon, aluminium and recycled bottle tops but hey, we the owners get to benefit.