RE: Can't get no love from me | PH Footnote
Discussion
Alias218 said:
I’m mid-thirties so whether you’d put me in the young adult bracket is up for debate (I’d say probably not).
I’m finding myself less and less interested in cars as times goes on partly because most new cars are so artificial that they just feel a little try hard (farting exhausts abound round my way), and partly because driving in the south east in general is such a bore. It’s too busy, too heavily policed by cameras, and too full of people who seem to have forgotten how to drive in a competent fashion over the last 5 years or so.
It’s boring, and it’s frustrating.
I used to love driving and would frequently go out just to drive. Now, I just can’t be arsed with it all.
Me too.I’m finding myself less and less interested in cars as times goes on partly because most new cars are so artificial that they just feel a little try hard (farting exhausts abound round my way), and partly because driving in the south east in general is such a bore. It’s too busy, too heavily policed by cameras, and too full of people who seem to have forgotten how to drive in a competent fashion over the last 5 years or so.
It’s boring, and it’s frustrating.
I used to love driving and would frequently go out just to drive. Now, I just can’t be arsed with it all.
And i'm 60, so It's not just rose-tinted views of a sepia past - it really was a different century.
Interesting article - it is true that young people are far less interested in driving ( I am amazed when I try to recruit young area salespeople how few have driving licences ). Don't think it has much to do with EVs though other than it makes absolutely no sense for most young people in particular to buy an EV.
You can really only run an EV if you have off street parking and your own charge point. Young people, on their first steps on the property ladder, will very rarely be in such a position - more likely in a flat share with 4 others...
You can really only run an EV if you have off street parking and your own charge point. Young people, on their first steps on the property ladder, will very rarely be in such a position - more likely in a flat share with 4 others...
This is a bit like religion (hear me out).
I used to be that large swathes of the population would go to church, simply because it was 'the done thing'. It no doubt made an impression on some people but for most it was a nominal affiliation. That has changed, but the people left still going now do genuinely want to be there, rather than going out of some sense of duty.
Similarly with driving, there's less need to own a car from a young age and our culture is less centred around it, so fewer people are doing it (and yes, modern cars are much more homogenous than they used to be). But that doesn't mean you won't get a new generation of enthusiasts. Sites like PH aren't populated by people trying to choose between 1.4 and 1.8 Vauxhall Meriva.
The downside is, with less general interest in cars, enthusiast cars become even more niche as manufacturers have less and less money to invest in developing them.
I do worry about short-range, long-wait-to-charge EVs and the general march towards always-on, always-monitored everything though. For me cars are about freedom and possibility; stick a couple of jerry cans in the boot and you could drive nearly 1000 miles between fill ups. 200 miles at 56mph whilst staring at the range meter, then a crawl round to find a vacant charger before an hour's wait hardly carries the same romantic attraction.
I used to be that large swathes of the population would go to church, simply because it was 'the done thing'. It no doubt made an impression on some people but for most it was a nominal affiliation. That has changed, but the people left still going now do genuinely want to be there, rather than going out of some sense of duty.
Similarly with driving, there's less need to own a car from a young age and our culture is less centred around it, so fewer people are doing it (and yes, modern cars are much more homogenous than they used to be). But that doesn't mean you won't get a new generation of enthusiasts. Sites like PH aren't populated by people trying to choose between 1.4 and 1.8 Vauxhall Meriva.
The downside is, with less general interest in cars, enthusiast cars become even more niche as manufacturers have less and less money to invest in developing them.
I do worry about short-range, long-wait-to-charge EVs and the general march towards always-on, always-monitored everything though. For me cars are about freedom and possibility; stick a couple of jerry cans in the boot and you could drive nearly 1000 miles between fill ups. 200 miles at 56mph whilst staring at the range meter, then a crawl round to find a vacant charger before an hour's wait hardly carries the same romantic attraction.
Probably nothing that hasn't been said, but I think basically there's very little that's aspirational about cars.
Imagine what would actually motivate you, get you excited in cars as an idea.
Something different enough to offer an attraction beyond simple utility, but actually attainable, not ridiculous exotica. This is helped if it isn't just a point on a continuous spectrum where whatever you choose there is always something slightly better.
Something that would in theory improve your life - it can have its obvious downsides but you need to be able to dismiss enough of them to rationalise it overall. And something you can actually accommodate, e.g. somewhere to park.
Something associated with or represented by people you respect, and definitely not the opposite of that. Something promoted in advertising and other media that's part of your influences.
And then think about how this manifests.
Especially if you live in a city, what might be potentially interesting cars are usually represented either by outright t
ts - funded by who knows what, drugs and money laundering probably - and only noticed because they're driven unimpressively and anti-socially in urban settings, or by a niche of affluent old people, boomers basically. So I think interesting cars are seen as the preserve of rich, entitled people and I think you can't underestimate what a turn-off this is.
Then aside from the fact that everything is expensive, the industry has done a pretty terrible job of creating exciting affordable cars for fear of cannibalising its own higher end market, and in fact the opposite occurs, excluding people who might engage more at a lower price. They collectively out out thousands of permutations of models whose sum total proposition is too complex and leaves no single 'affordable halo' idea. All of the remaining relevance is directly towards utility. There's nothing engaging about supercars if you're never going to be able to afford a £50k car, never mind a £x million one.
And then all the environmental factors (your environment rather than green stuff - like no parking provision or nowhere to actually put a capable car to good use) make it practically impossible anyway. Population density is the major factor in that.
Imagine what would actually motivate you, get you excited in cars as an idea.
Something different enough to offer an attraction beyond simple utility, but actually attainable, not ridiculous exotica. This is helped if it isn't just a point on a continuous spectrum where whatever you choose there is always something slightly better.
Something that would in theory improve your life - it can have its obvious downsides but you need to be able to dismiss enough of them to rationalise it overall. And something you can actually accommodate, e.g. somewhere to park.
Something associated with or represented by people you respect, and definitely not the opposite of that. Something promoted in advertising and other media that's part of your influences.
And then think about how this manifests.
Especially if you live in a city, what might be potentially interesting cars are usually represented either by outright t
ts - funded by who knows what, drugs and money laundering probably - and only noticed because they're driven unimpressively and anti-socially in urban settings, or by a niche of affluent old people, boomers basically. So I think interesting cars are seen as the preserve of rich, entitled people and I think you can't underestimate what a turn-off this is.Then aside from the fact that everything is expensive, the industry has done a pretty terrible job of creating exciting affordable cars for fear of cannibalising its own higher end market, and in fact the opposite occurs, excluding people who might engage more at a lower price. They collectively out out thousands of permutations of models whose sum total proposition is too complex and leaves no single 'affordable halo' idea. All of the remaining relevance is directly towards utility. There's nothing engaging about supercars if you're never going to be able to afford a £50k car, never mind a £x million one.
And then all the environmental factors (your environment rather than green stuff - like no parking provision or nowhere to actually put a capable car to good use) make it practically impossible anyway. Population density is the major factor in that.
MitchT said:
I'm 48. I was raised on a diet of TV shows where, if the motor vehicle wasn't the main feature, there'd at least be one of distinct character used by the star(s) of the show. Off the top of my head...
The Dukes of Hazzard
C.H.I.P.S.
Knight Rider
The A Team
The Fall Guy
Streethawk
Starsky & Hutch
What is there for today's young to stimulate an emotional connection with motor vehicles?
Good point I don't think shows like that (a hero saves the day type show) exist anyway today. An if they did thier car would be some sort of modified tesla etc.The Dukes of Hazzard
C.H.I.P.S.
Knight Rider
The A Team
The Fall Guy
Streethawk
Starsky & Hutch
What is there for today's young to stimulate an emotional connection with motor vehicles?
I suspect young people today care more about experience than material things so going to x bar, posting on Instagram etc having a car that's 10 years old likely is not as cool as having a Samsung Galaxy S23 etc. Times change in 97 like the author I was 17 I had a 1986 fiesta 950 it was rubbish, I loved it.
I can't find any love for an EV either, but that is because I love ICE so much though. Whereas I'd imagine that if you were only ever used to an EV then you'd be fine with them because they are quiet and cheap to run. I'm lucky that I've experienced a more exciting way of doing things with cars that make a noise and have a 3 pedal manual gearbox though.
A lot of people on here say that you can enjoy both an ICE and an EV, however I don't agree with that though, and for me you either like one or the other. A true Petrolhead or someone who is really interested in cars would always turn their nose up at an EV for me, and surely nobody would ever wake up on a nice and sunny Sunday morning and want to take an EV for a drive just for the sake of it either.
The future is grim for the car enthusiast in my opinion.
A lot of people on here say that you can enjoy both an ICE and an EV, however I don't agree with that though, and for me you either like one or the other. A true Petrolhead or someone who is really interested in cars would always turn their nose up at an EV for me, and surely nobody would ever wake up on a nice and sunny Sunday morning and want to take an EV for a drive just for the sake of it either.
The future is grim for the car enthusiast in my opinion.
forzaminardi said:
Agreed, it's silly to "blame" electric cars. Irrespective of the mode of power, cars are simply less necessary or desired by many young people living in urban areas. Back then, the rose-tinted view of how things "used to be better" was just as prevalent. Young people didn't buy the little, cheap, tinbox hatchbacks mentioned in the article because they were really good - they bought them because they were cheap.
Absolutely. I really like the style of the article but to this bit of it:...their rudimentary design and hollow build quality were all part of the appeal. Front-wheel drive and naturally aspirated petrol engines coalesced splendidly with everyone’s take-no-prisoners driving style: not too fast to be unavoidably lethal, but just light and spritely enough to seem fun.
...my response is "b
ks". I got my licence at exactly the time when base Novas, 205s etc were the go-to-choice for a teenage driver. My first car was a Nova and it was clear at the time that it was utterly crap, but so was everything else I could afford. None of my friends thought that the shonky old hatchbacks we were stuck with enbodied any 'joie de vivre', if anything we were always on about the day when we could get something bigger and better, but those shonky old hatchbacks were still a hell of a lot better than being stuck in the boonies pre-internet. Any of us would have taken something like a Cupra Born in a heartbeat.If it's really true that electric cars in particular are putting off young 'uns then it'll be for the reason set out a few posts above this one - at the moment they're a bugger to run without dedicated off-street parking and your own charger. Through a combination of going to various higher education institutions and generally figuring out what I was going to do with my life I must have lived at ten different addresses from taking my test to hitting 30. Hardly any had dedicated off-street parking so, imagining for the sake of argument that the public charging network had been the same as it is today, an EV would have been a right PITA.
I have three teenage kids - 2 who are driving and one learning, and we also own a Cupra Born so feel like I can comment on this one!
Firstly, the Cupra is for my wife who wanted a little run-around for trips to the station for work and running around town in. We have had electric cars for 6 years now (two Renault Zoe's) and she wanted something that was a little bigger but not something that made bombing around town and driving on the little country roads around our place taxing in any way (I'm looking at you Porsche Taycan - which she rejected as being too wide). First impressions are that its a real step up on the Zoe and pretty fun to drive in a non-enthusiast way. We specced the V3 with the 77kwh battery and the range is excellent - once a week fill ups max from our home charger -which takes around 10 hours). The tech is actually really good and if you are geeky in any way it's got hours of enjoyment ahead in getting all the settings sorted out just right. The other part of the equation that I was dreading after looking at all the reviews was the interface, and I couldn't be happier with it as its far better than I was led to believe on that front. They have either fixed it or the motoring press are a bunch of luddites - I'm hoping its the former...
The kids on the other hand are a different issue. They are begging to drive the Cupra but until they are 21 years old there's literally no insurance company who will insure them. Instead they are driving a 118i which for them is actually really good fun. It's relatively light, manual, peppy in a small engined kind of way and for me the most important thing, has all the safety features possible. It's also relatively cheap insurance wise. Interestingly though, they've all been super keen to drive as soon as possible as they feel its a way to freedom just like I and millions of others did when I was growing up. The feeling of driving is still a joy to them and the visceral feel of going faster than you can run and being able to go wherever you want whenever you want looks to me to be just as powerful now as when I was beginning my driving career.
Yes we are on the fringe of London and not in it, and yes our family household is not the average one (I am a complete car nut) but I have been really encouraged by the fact that our kids still have a passion for cars that I thought would have been seriously in danger of being quashed. I think other things like Drive to Survive and YouTube car reviews by young enthusiasts have a real bearing on this rather than the traditional ways in which we had many years ago for fanning the flames of this (TV series with cars in them etc) but it still feels like its alive and kicking for the younger generation in 2023.
Firstly, the Cupra is for my wife who wanted a little run-around for trips to the station for work and running around town in. We have had electric cars for 6 years now (two Renault Zoe's) and she wanted something that was a little bigger but not something that made bombing around town and driving on the little country roads around our place taxing in any way (I'm looking at you Porsche Taycan - which she rejected as being too wide). First impressions are that its a real step up on the Zoe and pretty fun to drive in a non-enthusiast way. We specced the V3 with the 77kwh battery and the range is excellent - once a week fill ups max from our home charger -which takes around 10 hours). The tech is actually really good and if you are geeky in any way it's got hours of enjoyment ahead in getting all the settings sorted out just right. The other part of the equation that I was dreading after looking at all the reviews was the interface, and I couldn't be happier with it as its far better than I was led to believe on that front. They have either fixed it or the motoring press are a bunch of luddites - I'm hoping its the former...
The kids on the other hand are a different issue. They are begging to drive the Cupra but until they are 21 years old there's literally no insurance company who will insure them. Instead they are driving a 118i which for them is actually really good fun. It's relatively light, manual, peppy in a small engined kind of way and for me the most important thing, has all the safety features possible. It's also relatively cheap insurance wise. Interestingly though, they've all been super keen to drive as soon as possible as they feel its a way to freedom just like I and millions of others did when I was growing up. The feeling of driving is still a joy to them and the visceral feel of going faster than you can run and being able to go wherever you want whenever you want looks to me to be just as powerful now as when I was beginning my driving career.
Yes we are on the fringe of London and not in it, and yes our family household is not the average one (I am a complete car nut) but I have been really encouraged by the fact that our kids still have a passion for cars that I thought would have been seriously in danger of being quashed. I think other things like Drive to Survive and YouTube car reviews by young enthusiasts have a real bearing on this rather than the traditional ways in which we had many years ago for fanning the flames of this (TV series with cars in them etc) but it still feels like its alive and kicking for the younger generation in 2023.
cerb4.5lee said:
Roger Irrelevant said:
Any of us would have taken something like a Cupra Born in a heartbeat.
I look at the interior in that Cupra Born and I reckon that the interior in my 1982 Skoda Estelle was more inviting. Have you seen the state of it? Awful. 
cerb4.5lee said:
Roger Irrelevant said:
Any of us would have taken something like a Cupra Born in a heartbeat.
I look at the interior in that Cupra Born and I reckon that the interior in my 1982 Skoda Estelle was more inviting. Have you seen the state of it? Awful. Don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone talk favourably about an 80s Skoda
schaeffs said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Roger Irrelevant said:
Any of us would have taken something like a Cupra Born in a heartbeat.
I look at the interior in that Cupra Born and I reckon that the interior in my 1982 Skoda Estelle was more inviting. Have you seen the state of it? Awful. ballans said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Roger Irrelevant said:
Any of us would have taken something like a Cupra Born in a heartbeat.
I look at the interior in that Cupra Born and I reckon that the interior in my 1982 Skoda Estelle was more inviting. Have you seen the state of it? Awful. Don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone talk favourably about an 80s Skoda
Apologies about the screen though! I never thought that I'd ever talk positively about the Skoda either to be fair!
cerb4.5lee said:
Roger Irrelevant said:
Any of us would have taken something like a Cupra Born in a heartbeat.
I look at the interior in that Cupra Born and I reckon that the interior in my 1982 Skoda Estelle was more inviting. Have you seen the state of it? Awful. Roger Irrelevant said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Roger Irrelevant said:
Any of us would have taken something like a Cupra Born in a heartbeat.
I look at the interior in that Cupra Born and I reckon that the interior in my 1982 Skoda Estelle was more inviting. Have you seen the state of it? Awful. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff