RE: Vote for the best saloon of the last 25 years!
Discussion
herebebeasties said:
cerb4.5lee said:
If you are on this website then I'd imagine that you actually care about cars, and surely anyone who is actually into cars wouldn't consider an EV in the first place. Someone who just wants 4 wheels and a nice interior isn't a car enthusiast to me.
I own a Lotus Elise SC (my second Lotus!) and a 350bhp (i.e. relatively fast) estate. I've been reading PH since 2006. I think it's safe to say that I care about cars. So obviously I couldn't agree with you more.Errr, no hang on. I mean couldn't agree with you less.
It must break your brain to be told that stupid little me bought a Tesla Model 3 with my own money (what?!), not on a business scheme (what?!), for cash (what?!), because it was an objectively better solution to the particular set of criteria I had for a saloon car, including how fun it is to drive.
It goes round corners pretty well (my benchmark is an Elise, remember), and is quick, with amazing, almost addictive throttle response. It's fun trail-regening it into corners (yes, really). It's well-packaged (I'm buying a saloon, not a Caterham - so yes, that is important). Sure, it doesn't have a V8 soundtrack, or particularly feelsome steering (it is quick and direct mind you), but then nor does anything else these days, unless you want to spend the thick end of £100k. The only thing that's really wrong with it is a pretty naff interior (at least it's not chintzy, unlike Merc & BMWs of late), and pretty rubbish standard brakes that cook themselves fairly quickly if you're really going for it (it's a Long Range, not a Performance).
Everything is a compromise, saloon cars especially so. A compromise between space, pace, handling, steering feel, packaging, weight, running costs, comfort, reliability, styling (looking at you M3 touring), etc. It's not like anyone buys a saloon car to be a Radical.
I really don't understand the hate for EVs. (And it does seem to be pretty much hate, and vitriol, and personal attacks, and all the rest of it on this forum. It's weird.)
A Model 3 Performance perhaps does deserve a listing in the top 25. It's an interesting and in many ways highly competent fast saloon. IMO it doesn't deserve to come in the top ten even, though - the driving experience and styling are too anodyne, not enough character to it.
Edited by herebebeasties on Friday 31st March 18:59
I just go on an odd occasional grumpy old man rant about them that's all. I don't even know where my strong dislike of them really comes from(nobody is forcing me to buy one to be fair), and it is daft really with how irrational they can make me look/sound.
I don't like the way they look inside or outside for sure, but then that is always subjective anyway. I guess I am a bit baffled about how EVs have become so prominent on this website though. But I've recently cancelled both my CAR and EVO magazine subscriptions because I don't like the direction that cars are going in anymore, and EVs do seem to be taking over and I just struggle to handle it I think.
I think I'm just mourning the incoming death of the ICE I reckon.
AddyT. said:
I knew before reading the comments it will predictably be a BMW that wins. From the first few comments looks like that will be the outcome. In some articles this site is like being on a BMW fan club page. How boring. BMW’s really arent the be all and end all….
Engage antagonise mode - sorry 😂Have to agree here. It’s all so predictable. Yes, the BMW’s are undeniably commercially successful but frankly they are very uninspiring in the main. You have different sizes of dull cuboid - Granada clone, Cortina clone, Escort clone - fairly well put together with everything from 1600 to 5l engines and appropriately updated suspension in different levels of trim.
When BMW first entered the UK they had no interest from customers. Some marketing guy said increase the prices by x% and people will think they are premium. It worked - people buy them like they buy iPhones and not because they are amazing cars in the main.
I’d go for some of the more interesting and perhaps flawed Astons, Jags, Conti, etc.
Yes shame it is 25yrs so no Lotus Carlton or V600, but please - cars should have some real design inspiration and virtually no BMWs do. Merc and perhaps Audi a little better.
Outside of the M1 which was an Lamborghini and the i8 which was a wonderful anomaly there is nothing characterful or inspirational - some are fast and some even compete with pace and handling with really interesting cars but not otherwise interesting.
Disengage antagonise mode.
😂
Expecting a real telling off now 😀
I don't like Electric Cars and cant imagine me owning one ever (given my age)
However, I do think the Tesla Model 3 (Performance) could/should have been in the 25 as it is a "phenomina" and has transformed Tesla from a quirky loss making EV pioneer into a profit machine. I wouldn't have voted for it but I think it should have been there to be voted for by anyone who wanted to (almost no one on PH I suspect but at least we would have known)
As to a BMW winning. I have never owned a BMW and doubt I ever will. I worked for Jaguar for 20 years and drove pretty much every BMW in that period and I've driven a few since. Most BMW's are just a bit sterile for me. I really respect them as they are well engineered and deliver what they are meant to deliver. Quite what they've been doing with styling in the past 5 to 10 years is beyond me but you have to accept that they are selling more cars and are making big profits so one assumes the styling is working for the people they want to sell to.
Having said I am unlikely to ever own a BMW, I did vote for the M5 E39 as it is such a gloriously well engineered car of it's type and of its day. I remember driving to back to back with the X308 XJR and being in awe of its combination of ride and handling and the combination of response and torque from it V8 and manual transmission. Had I not worked for Jaguar (and hence a "need" to own an X308) there is a good chance I might have an E39 on my drive rather than the X308. (that said the Jag does "whaft" better and has a decent auto box which for 90% of the time is actually better than a manual).
Amusingly for me, the other car on my drive is a GR Yaris which is so different to the XJR but indeed it makes me appreciate the whafting of the XJR even more as for on the occasions I want to tear around, the GRY is better than any big saloon could ever be
However, I do think the Tesla Model 3 (Performance) could/should have been in the 25 as it is a "phenomina" and has transformed Tesla from a quirky loss making EV pioneer into a profit machine. I wouldn't have voted for it but I think it should have been there to be voted for by anyone who wanted to (almost no one on PH I suspect but at least we would have known)
As to a BMW winning. I have never owned a BMW and doubt I ever will. I worked for Jaguar for 20 years and drove pretty much every BMW in that period and I've driven a few since. Most BMW's are just a bit sterile for me. I really respect them as they are well engineered and deliver what they are meant to deliver. Quite what they've been doing with styling in the past 5 to 10 years is beyond me but you have to accept that they are selling more cars and are making big profits so one assumes the styling is working for the people they want to sell to.
Having said I am unlikely to ever own a BMW, I did vote for the M5 E39 as it is such a gloriously well engineered car of it's type and of its day. I remember driving to back to back with the X308 XJR and being in awe of its combination of ride and handling and the combination of response and torque from it V8 and manual transmission. Had I not worked for Jaguar (and hence a "need" to own an X308) there is a good chance I might have an E39 on my drive rather than the X308. (that said the Jag does "whaft" better and has a decent auto box which for 90% of the time is actually better than a manual).
Amusingly for me, the other car on my drive is a GR Yaris which is so different to the XJR but indeed it makes me appreciate the whafting of the XJR even more as for on the occasions I want to tear around, the GRY is better than any big saloon could ever be
There is no reason EVs cannot be fun
The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road
Electric go karts can be a hoot
At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque
This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch 😀 - and I doubt that many would vote for it.
The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road
Electric go karts can be a hoot
At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque
This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch 😀 - and I doubt that many would vote for it.
Jesus Christ, 80s BMWs being merely clones of fords but a bit better built… 
I understand that BMW and Porsche are brands which annoy people because they are talked about so much. But why are they? Because they’re (annoyingly!) good.
I have very limited experience of BMWs and its mostly E30 3 series from years ago, so i don’t have a dog in the fight. But, BMW stand head and shoulders above everyone else when it comes to sports saloons.
Comparing early 80s fords to the equiv BMWs
I understand that BMW and Porsche are brands which annoy people because they are talked about so much. But why are they? Because they’re (annoyingly!) good.
I have very limited experience of BMWs and its mostly E30 3 series from years ago, so i don’t have a dog in the fight. But, BMW stand head and shoulders above everyone else when it comes to sports saloons.
Comparing early 80s fords to the equiv BMWs
pgamble said:
When BMW first entered the UK they had no interest from customers. Some marketing guy said increase the prices by x% and people will think they are premium. It worked - people buy them like they buy iPhones and not because they are amazing cars in the main.
I'm not here to defend BMW nor have I owned one for many years but what you stated above is rubbish. I reckon you've just got a chip on your shoulder, bet you know it too.I'll just take you up on one point. BMW's were always expensive in the U.K. from day one compared to any non German comparable car. In the main this was due higher labour costs and better build quality. Not forgetting the standard of engineering, R&D investment and a massive commitment to motorsports.
It's no wonder they sell and their market share keeps increasing.
Me,I wouldn't have a modern BMW in a million years but nothing got to do with your badly flawed logic.
Edited by JJJ. on Friday 31st March 22:12
Alfa 156 GTA
BMW M5 (E60 / E61)
Rolls-Royce Phantom VII
Also from BMW Group:
Rover 75 / Tourer - sense of occasion (a plasticky rep car it is not), design and comfy ride
Pair the original chassis settings, pre-facelift styling, build quality (pre-Project Drive), real wood (rather than the post-PD veneer), with X12 / X13 RWD platform and the SOHC 3v version of the Modular V8 (225 kW (306 PS) / 435 Nm) & 6-speed manual / 5-speed auto from the Mustang GT - you'd have a more rounded P5B successor (P6B in ZT 300 guise). SOHC variant as it would fit under the bonnet.
BMW M5 (E60 / E61)
Rolls-Royce Phantom VII
Also from BMW Group:
Rover 75 / Tourer - sense of occasion (a plasticky rep car it is not), design and comfy ride
Pair the original chassis settings, pre-facelift styling, build quality (pre-Project Drive), real wood (rather than the post-PD veneer), with X12 / X13 RWD platform and the SOHC 3v version of the Modular V8 (225 kW (306 PS) / 435 Nm) & 6-speed manual / 5-speed auto from the Mustang GT - you'd have a more rounded P5B successor (P6B in ZT 300 guise). SOHC variant as it would fit under the bonnet.
Edited by AppleJuice on Saturday 1st April 16:24
Paul_Riordan said:
Robertb said:
oops... was it really that long ago.....
herebebeasties said:
A Model 3 Performance perhaps does deserve a listing in the top 25. It's an interesting and in many ways highly competent fast saloon. IMO it doesn't deserve to come in the top ten even, though - the driving experience and styling are too anodyne, not enough character to it.
I agree, it's an era defining car which brings huge performance and electrification down to a price point that makes it relatively attainable. How can it not have a place? Edited by herebebeasties on Friday 31st March 18:59
cerb4.5lee said:
I think I'm just mourning the incoming death of the ICE I reckon.
Even as the owner of an EV, I very much understand/feel that.Am busy bringing forward plans to own some more interesting metal as a result. I think EVs will get there in terms of character, handling, and light-weighting, but there's likely to be a bit of a chasm between 2030 and 2040 while they do that.
Hereward said:
Whitestrand said:
...Astonishing performance and comfort outweigh all other considerations
Very sad to read this, implying that handling, feedback, driver involvement and induction/exhaust noise have no place. Seems that many people simply want a white good on wheels.cerb4.5lee said:
C.A.R. said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Surely there must be the odd "What EV?" website knocking about?
EVs shouldn't even get a look in on a car enthusiasts website like this one for me. They are a totally different proposition to the traditional ICE'd car in my opinion, and you just can't really compare them in anyway...other than they both have 4 wheels.
Who actually wakes up one day and thinks "I can't wait to buy an EV?". What a completely depressing mindset to have I reckon.
If you hadn't guessed already...I'm not a big fan of them!
You say that, but take another look at the options.EVs shouldn't even get a look in on a car enthusiasts website like this one for me. They are a totally different proposition to the traditional ICE'd car in my opinion, and you just can't really compare them in anyway...other than they both have 4 wheels.
Who actually wakes up one day and thinks "I can't wait to buy an EV?". What a completely depressing mindset to have I reckon.
If you hadn't guessed already...I'm not a big fan of them!
"Porsche Taycan"
If you're going to include EVs, probably should have included the one which wipes the floor with the rest of the options on nearly every metric, but it's unpopular to do anything other than slate Tesla.
I know a chap who buys a Taycan and he keeps it a few months, orders another one and he makes at least £10k on it everytime he changes it. It is a very decent money spinner to be fair.
I reckon that if I made £10k everytime I changed my car...even I could manage to start to like an EV perhaps?
ks. People are allowed different opinions, different drivers, even on PH.turbobungle said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Surely there must be the odd "What EV?" website knocking about?
EVs shouldn't even get a look in on a car enthusiasts website like this one for me. They are a totally different proposition to the traditional ICE'd car in my opinion, and you just can't really compare them in anyway...other than they both have 4 wheels.
Who actually wakes up one day and thinks "I can't wait to buy an EV?". What a completely depressing mindset to have I reckon.
If you hadn't guessed already...I'm not a big fan of them!
^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^EVs shouldn't even get a look in on a car enthusiasts website like this one for me. They are a totally different proposition to the traditional ICE'd car in my opinion, and you just can't really compare them in anyway...other than they both have 4 wheels.
Who actually wakes up one day and thinks "I can't wait to buy an EV?". What a completely depressing mindset to have I reckon.
If you hadn't guessed already...I'm not a big fan of them!
A Tesla may be bloody fast (for a short while) but the best sports saloon should be great to drive, have character and be able crush continents. The Tesla does not fit the bill, its just stupidly fast in a straight line.
dvshannow said:
There is no reason EVs cannot be fun
The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road
Electric go karts can be a hoot
At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque
This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch ?? - and I doubt that many would vote for it.
Go drive a Taycan (with an open mind), then come back.The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road
Electric go karts can be a hoot
At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque
This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch ?? - and I doubt that many would vote for it.
Julian Scott said:
dvshannow said:
There is no reason EVs cannot be fun
The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road
Electric go karts can be a hoot
At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque
This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch ?? - and I doubt that many would vote for it.
Go drive a Taycan (with an open mind), then come back.The problem with current EVs I think is they are heavy and their performance is so linear which is a bad combination for enjoying them on the road
Electric go karts can be a hoot
At some point we will have properly lightweight enthusiast aimed EVs which will be a lot more visceral- however I don’t see an EV being more fun to drive on a public road than a good ICE manual as you cannot replace the noise and interaction with the car via clutch, the vibration etc with instant torque
This said, a Tesla model S should be in the list IMO it’s prob one of the most important cars, let alone saloons of the 2010s , and it’s more a saloon than a GR Yaris is a hot hatch ?? - and I doubt that many would vote for it.
If I needed a car for doing long motorway trips or town driving, then I can see an electric car being the best tool for the job, no question. Quiet, smooth, refined, easy to drive, quick, and responsive.
Would I buy one as a fun car to enjoy on a weekend? Definitely not.
Given that this is Pistonheads, and these cars are supposed to be fun cars, then I see no reason to include a Tesla.
I'm with a few others on here, I don't have ANY interest in most modern cars now simply because they've got no soul / character anymore. They are literally just appliances to get from A-B in my opinion.
Will there ever be any fun ones? I guess there probably will be eventually, but I can't see me ever having fond memories of them like the ICE cars of old.
Would I buy one as a fun car to enjoy on a weekend? Definitely not.
Given that this is Pistonheads, and these cars are supposed to be fun cars, then I see no reason to include a Tesla.
I'm with a few others on here, I don't have ANY interest in most modern cars now simply because they've got no soul / character anymore. They are literally just appliances to get from A-B in my opinion.
Will there ever be any fun ones? I guess there probably will be eventually, but I can't see me ever having fond memories of them like the ICE cars of old.
Julian Scott said:
cerb4.5lee said:
C.A.R. said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Surely there must be the odd "What EV?" website knocking about?
EVs shouldn't even get a look in on a car enthusiasts website like this one for me. They are a totally different proposition to the traditional ICE'd car in my opinion, and you just can't really compare them in anyway...other than they both have 4 wheels.
Who actually wakes up one day and thinks "I can't wait to buy an EV?". What a completely depressing mindset to have I reckon.
If you hadn't guessed already...I'm not a big fan of them!
You say that, but take another look at the options.EVs shouldn't even get a look in on a car enthusiasts website like this one for me. They are a totally different proposition to the traditional ICE'd car in my opinion, and you just can't really compare them in anyway...other than they both have 4 wheels.
Who actually wakes up one day and thinks "I can't wait to buy an EV?". What a completely depressing mindset to have I reckon.
If you hadn't guessed already...I'm not a big fan of them!
"Porsche Taycan"
If you're going to include EVs, probably should have included the one which wipes the floor with the rest of the options on nearly every metric, but it's unpopular to do anything other than slate Tesla.
I know a chap who buys a Taycan and he keeps it a few months, orders another one and he makes at least £10k on it everytime he changes it. It is a very decent money spinner to be fair.
I reckon that if I made £10k everytime I changed my car...even I could manage to start to like an EV perhaps?
ks. People are allowed different opinions, different drivers, even on PH.I’m going with at least 90%. Would they have bought one anyway, maybe some of course but it won’t be many.
dvshannow said:
petelong said:
Wab1974uk said:
For me, I voted
B7 RS4 (best Audi RS product by far)
Impreza GC8 (changed a generation)
M5 E39 (manual V8. Best combo of any M5)
How can you vote for the RS4, it’s an estate! NOT a saloon! B7 RS4 (best Audi RS product by far)
Impreza GC8 (changed a generation)
M5 E39 (manual V8. Best combo of any M5)
Surely the RS5 Sportback should be considered!
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