RE: Uncertainty over EU ICE ban resolved

RE: Uncertainty over EU ICE ban resolved

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NGK210

2,912 posts

145 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Wab1974uk said:
And what is your evidence? The telly told me !!

It's always funny that the people screaming for evidence are always the ones who's only point of research is turning on the BBC news.

Go look at Cloud seeding. But you won't.

Chemtrails are a conspiracy theory !!!. While ignoring the chemtrails above their own head.

Anyway, climate change should have killed us all years ago. Yet nothing happens. But it will next time. The telly said so !

All of the above are predictions.
Climate change is happening now.
As witnessed / acknowledged by Clarkson in the Vietnam episode of Grand Tour, and also illustrated in episode 6 of the BBC’s Frozen Planet II, available on iPlayer.
But no doubt the evidence / science in both examples is specious, because Clarkson and Attenborough are from the same cabal of baby-eating alien lizards.

GT9

6,537 posts

172 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
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Otispunkmeyer said:
JCB reckon they've got zero tailpipe with their hydrogen ICE. Via low temperature combustion design. However I would expect to find some kind of emissions from the lube oil. This is also a thing on natural gas engines and is being picked up on more. So I would expect hydrogen to be the same.

All very well, but it doesn't address the elephant in the room that you can't store enough compressed hydrogen in a typical 4/5 person passenger car to feed a hungry engine. Fuel cell scrapes through by virtue of being significantly higher efficiency than an engine.

D4rez

Original Poster:

1,381 posts

56 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Otispunkmeyer said:
D4rez said:
kambites said:
I'm pretty sure our proposed ban IS technology agnostic - it simply states that cars must be zero emission at point of use. How that is to be achieved is not specified.
It’s zero at the tailpipe, which disqualifies anything like hydrogen ice or e-fuel. Reason being NOx, particulates etc
JCB reckon they've got zero tailpipe with their hydrogen ICE. Via low temperature combustion design. However I would expect to find some kind of emissions from the lube oil. This is also a thing on natural gas engines and is being picked up on more. So I would expect hydrogen to be the same.
You can probably get close but there would be so little performance from the engine

Nomme de Plum

4,513 posts

16 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
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MDMA . said:
Livestock farming in the EU generates more greenhouse gases than all the combined vehicles on the road in the same region. When is the ban on cows, pigs and sheep coming? I haven’t seen the memo on the switch to a plant based diet in 2035 yet.
The UK is no longer in the Eu.

I don't see any herds of cows, pigs or sheep in our cities. Do you know different.




MDMA .

8,884 posts

101 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Nomme de Plum said:
MDMA . said:
Livestock farming in the EU generates more greenhouse gases than all the combined vehicles on the road in the same region. When is the ban on cows, pigs and sheep coming? I haven’t seen the memo on the switch to a plant based diet in 2035 yet.
The UK is no longer in the Eu.

I don't see any herds of cows, pigs or sheep in our cities. Do you know different.
If you can’t read, don’t comment.

blue al

937 posts

159 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
This discussion is totally missing the point
What’s more frustrating is the people making these decisions don’t or cannot drive.

For example Nicola sturgeon has made it known that she has now got the opportunity to get a few driving lessons in….

People in Westminster are predominantly using public transport to the most connected building in the country
From their publicly funded second homes, same thing in Brussels and the rest of Europe.

Nomme de Plum

4,513 posts

16 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
MDMA . said:
Nomme de Plum said:
MDMA . said:
Livestock farming in the EU generates more greenhouse gases than all the combined vehicles on the road in the same region. When is the ban on cows, pigs and sheep coming? I haven’t seen the memo on the switch to a plant based diet in 2035 yet.
The UK is no longer in the Eu.

I don't see any herds of cows, pigs or sheep in our cities. Do you know different.
If you can’t read, don’t comment.
Personally i think we should all eat less meat. I eat little meat these days.

This thread is about continuing ICE cars past 2035. My understanding is that e-fuels are not yet pollution free. Now we know that pollution causes harm especially to brain development in the young are you happy that we should ignore this and from other sources in our cities?



Nomme de Plum

4,513 posts

16 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
blue al said:
This discussion is totally missing the point
What’s more frustrating is the people making these decisions don’t or cannot drive.

For example Nicola sturgeon has made it known that she has now got the opportunity to get a few driving lessons in….

People in Westminster are predominantly using public transport to the most connected building in the country
From their publicly funded second homes, same thing in Brussels and the rest of Europe.
Sorry but most of us on PH do drive. In my case way more than 700,000 miles to date. What is in discussion is what propels the vehicle.

blue al

937 posts

159 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Nomme de Plum said:
blue al said:
This discussion is totally missing the point
What’s more frustrating is the people making these decisions don’t or cannot drive.

For example Nicola sturgeon has made it known that she has now got the opportunity to get a few driving lessons in….

People in Westminster are predominantly using public transport to the most connected building in the country
From their publicly funded second homes, same thing in Brussels and the rest of Europe.
Sorry but most of us on PH do drive. In my case way more than 700,000 miles to date. What is in discussion is what propels the vehicle.
Double that milage and we can have a conversation biggrin

ChrisCh86

845 posts

44 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Nomme de Plum said:
Personally i think we should all eat less meat. I eat little meat these days.

This thread is about continuing ICE cars past 2035. My understanding is that e-fuels are not yet pollution free. Now we know that pollution causes harm especially to brain development in the young are you happy that we should ignore this and from other sources in our cities?
E fuels are going to be expensive.

They're not mass market and will be just for the rich to use for special occasions. The vast majority of personal mobility will be via public transport or via EVs.

Sustainable fuels is a complete non-issue as they will be used by such a small part of the population.

whp1983

1,171 posts

139 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Robertb said:
My question is, what will happen to fuel retail in Britain in the next 10 yrs? What will be the 'fulcrum point' of EV ownership as a % before its not economic for as many fuel stations to operate as they now do?

Provision of charging infrastructure already looks massively better than it did, although there is room for improvement. The more EVs there are, the better it will get as there will be demand, and the better it is, the more waverers will be encouraged to abandon ICE, so a parabolic uptake.

At what point will the govt start turning the screw on fuel prices for a final prod? They know we can take £2 a litre...
Next ten years will probably see very little change in fuel availability. The vast majority of stuff leaving show rooms right now still has an ICE component…. Hybrids won’t be banned until 2035. Then you have to work through mass cycle of cars to get to your point of exponential EV sales making up the majority. Plus commercial stuff etc etc. all assuming law makes don’t change again.

Nomme de Plum

4,513 posts

16 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
blue al said:
Double that milage and we can have a conversation biggrin
I'm not a boiler fixer, sales rep, HGV or delivery driver and prefer public transport as I could work while travelling. Driving is a waste of a life.

In your case about 15 years behind a wheel.





Edited by Nomme de Plum on Tuesday 28th March 21:50

Nomme de Plum

4,513 posts

16 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
whp1983 said:
Next ten years will probably see very little change in fuel availability. The vast majority of stuff leaving show rooms right now still has an ICE component…. Hybrids won’t be banned until 2035. Then you have to work through mass cycle of cars to get to your point of exponential EV sales making up the majority. Plus commercial stuff etc etc. all assuming law makes don’t change again.
I'd guesstimate 2050 before we are full EV for personal transport.

MartinGLeeds

123 posts

138 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
The German Manufactures; BMW, Audi, Merc etc all know that they don’t have the clear blue water between their Cars and Cars from their less prestigious competitors with the electrification of the Motor Car. It simply won’t be there, performance wise anyway………so can you imagine the lobbying done by Ze German Manufacturers to their Government?

I bet they’ve been going fking berserk to be honest.

Trust Me it’s not all over yet for the combustion engine by a long shot. It’s a nice soft cuddly thought to make the noise that all transport will be from electric………the infrastructure and the undeniable rising cost of charging the bd things, we will be defend by the sound of Warning Vehicle Reversing chimes from all the powers that be, as D-Day approaches.

Dombilano

1,132 posts

55 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Wab1974uk said:
Nomme de Plum said:
wildatheart said:
The sad part about this 'progress' is that when you follow the money, you soon realise that CO2 driven 'climate change' is one. giant. scam.
Do have some authoritive evidence to validate your assertion?
There is lots out there. Go research it.

Asking for evidence while watching the BBC for yours.

But while the media and Google (and similar) refuse to report / show it then only one side (the agenda) gets shown.




^^^^ That is not normal ^^^^
Hahahaha jesus. Is that elvis on his phone too

Nomme de Plum

4,513 posts

16 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
MartinGLeeds said:
The German Manufactures; BMW, Audi, Merc etc all know that they don’t have the clear blue water between their Cars and Cars from their less prestigious competitors with the electrification of the Motor Car. It simply won’t be there, performance wise anyway………so can you imagine the lobbying done by Ze German Manufacturers to their Government?

I bet they’ve been going fking berserk to be honest.

Trust Me it’s not all over yet for the combustion engine by a long shot. It’s a nice soft cuddly thought to make the noise that all transport will be from electric………the infrastructure and the undeniable rising cost of charging the bd things, we will be defend by the sound of Warning Vehicle Reversing chimes from all the powers that be, as D-Day approaches.
I suggest that the current youth think very differently about car ownership they are also overwhelmingly climate action supporters.

If there is any backsliding expect the government of the day to come under incredible pressure. VW were caught out once and MM will be treated with contempt if they try to delay the transition.

I also suspect the Government will add additional tax to fossil fuels and e fuels to provide revenue. This will act as a major nudge to Jo public.






Terminator X

15,041 posts

204 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
D4rez said:
Newsflash, the U.K. isn’t in the EU anymore and isn’t following suit as our ban is not technology agnostic. It is much tougher

Second newsflash - the average punter won’t be able to afford this or the very rare, expensive new car with an engine to still run it.

It is good news for decarbonising classics though.
So good at future predictions yet unable to predict that ICE would survive the ban. Perhaps the EV fanboys can't predict the future after all which includes (a) the tech won't scale up (b) but but it is so expensive right now and can't possibly get cheaper over time. Add in your new one too, ICE cars aparently will be "very expensive"!

TX.

nismo48

3,678 posts

207 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
DriveSnowdonia said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Personally i think we should all eat less meat. I eat little meat these days.
Why is that then? And why is it that you feel that the rest ot us should eat less meat?
Hmmmmm scratchchin

GT9

6,537 posts

172 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
Terminator X said:
Add in your new one too, ICE cars aparently will be "very expensive"!

TX.
Unfortunately that will most likely be the case.

ICE car production costs are currently based around mass manufacturing at volumes EVs could only dream of up until now.

In the next 12 years that will, in all probability, reverse, and you will no longer be able to get so animated about the high cost of EVs. smile

An electric car is actually quite a simple beast compared to an ICE, on a level playing field volume-wise, there is no real difference in cost.

If EVs are being produced at say 10 times the rate of ICEs, you can be pretty sure the ICE won't be able to compete on price anymore.

We also have to be realistic about how much e-fuel will be available, regardless of how much it costs.

I know you want to believe that e-fuel will be the saviour of ICEs but that's just not realistic in the timeframe before the ban.

E-fuels needed to happen 20 years ago or more to be running at a sufficient production rate by 2035 to warrant anything like having a mainstream range of ICE cars continuing in production.

Some manufacturers may decide not to bother, some will.

Which of the ones who have said 100% electric before the ban do we think are going to change course?

I will repost the summary I did of the top 20 European manufacturers and their statements regarding this as a prompt.

GT9

6,537 posts

172 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
As promised:

Mercedes

“Step by step, we see the market turning. I really believe that in this decade, we will flip from being based upon high tech internal combustion engines to going dominant electric, if not all electric, in the luxury segment.
We’ve all realized that climate change is real, the CO2 problem needs to be solved. And where does that problem end? It ends on the desks of our engineers.
“We do it because we think it’s right. But we also do it because we think it’s going to be the better business. I don’t think there’s any question for a modern company, a forward-thinking modern company, that we need to decarbonize."

Audi

"Audi’s plan is to have more than 20 fully electric models in its portfolio by 2025. By as early as 2026, the only new models the brand with the four rings releases on the market will be fully electric. The company has made a clear commitment to electromobility in terms of investment planning as well. For instance, in the years 2022 to 2026, Audi intends to invest around 18 billion euros in electrification and hybridization, based on its planning round adopted at the end of 2021. With overall investments of around 37 billion euros, nearly half of the outlays will go to these future-oriented topics."

BMW

"Electric drivetrains are a prerequisite for climate-neutral mobility of the future. This is why the BMW Group is consistently expanding its range of electric vehicles. As early as 2023, the Group will offer at least one fully electric model in virtually all key segments. From 2025 onwards, the BMW Group plans to increase its delivery share of all-electric vehicles to 50% with the Neue Klasse, while also further reducing its carbon footprint over the entire life cycle. In doing so, it will utilize its experience as a pioneer of e-mobility."

VW

"Volkswagen is on its way to ZERO. In concrete terms, this means: the company has committed itself to the targets of the Paris Agreement and the EU’s European Green Deal. The long-term goal is to become completely carbon-neutral by 2050. This is a marathon that starts with a sprint: Volkswagen’s goal for 2030 is to reduce emissions per vehicle in Europe by 40 percent compared to 2018, which means that each Volkswagen vehicle will then emit 17 tonnes less CO2 on average throughout its life-cycle. Volkswagen is eager to make a substantial contribution to mitigating climate change and, at the same time, become the most coveted brand for sustainable mobility.Volkswagen is taking a holistic approach to decarbonisation, which is why its Way to ZERO goes beyond vehicle electrification to include the entire vehicle life-cycle. Between now and 2025 alone, the company will invest approximately €14 billion in decarbonisation measures that will focus on four central pillars. The first pillar is continuing the accelerated electrification of the product portfolio. The second pillar is decarbonising supply chains and production, the cause of half of an electric car’s total carbon emissions. The third pillar is the consistent use of green energy during the usage phase; this will address the remaining 50% of emissions. The fourth pillar is the recycling of batteries."

Porsche

"The electric drive is a double blessing. It will enable Porsche to meet more stringent consumption and emission standards in the future. At the same time, it significantly improves the performance of the vehicles. When it comes to electrification, the focus is on the contrasting pairs of ‘innovation and tradition’ and ‘performance and suitability’ for everyday use. With every new model generation, the sports car manufacturer once again demonstrates its outstanding engineering achievements. The company principle "Perform much, consume little" should be raised to the next level at every juncture."

FORD

"Our march toward an all-electric future is an absolute necessity for Ford to meet the mobility needs of customers across a transforming Europe,” said Stuart Rowley, chair, Ford of Europe. “It’s also about the pressing need for greater care of our planet, making a positive contribution to society and reducing emissions in line with the Paris Climate Agreement. Together, these efforts will support Ford’s global plans to significantly reduce carbon emissions. The company today announced it is targeting zero emissions for all vehicle sales in Europe and carbon neutrality across its European footprint of facilities, logistics and suppliers by 2035."

Ford to introduce three new electric passenger vehicles and four new electric commercial vehicles in Europe by 2024; plans to sell more than 600,000 electric vehicles in the region by 2026.
EV push in Europe supports the acceleration of the Ford+ plan, and global goal of 2 million+ annual production of EVs by 2026 and 10% company adjusted EBIT margin by 2026.
Planned production of electric vehicles in Cologne, Germany, now expected to be 1.2 million vehicles over six years, with a total product investment of $2 billion.

OPEL

"Opel is to become a purely electric car brand by 2028, as part of parent group Stellantis' drive towards sustainable mobility. The carmaker will switch its entire line-up to battery-electric vehicles (BEVs), with the 12 current variants to be joined by a new model based on the Opel Manta."

Rolls Royce

"After years of expectation and inquiry, CEO Torsten Müller- Ötvös stays true to his promise, confirming that Rolls-Royce will be fully electric by the end of this decade."

Bentley

"Bentley’s journey into an electric future continues. The introduction of hybrid technology is an important stage on that journey, with a range of hybrid vehicles now available. In the years ahead, Bentley will reveal its first fully electric vehicle, making the shift to an all-electric line-up by 2030."

Jaguar Land Rover

"Jaguar Land Rover announces a global upskilling drive, in a bid to train 29,000 people in the next three years for its connected and data capabilities, and to support the rapid transition to electrification. Our plans to electrify our product portfolio are running at pace, and we are rapidly scaling up our future skills training programme to ensure we have the right talent to deliver the world’s most desirable modern luxury electric vehicles."

MINI

"MINI will launch its last new model available with internal combustion engines in 2025, and that by 2027 it hopes that 50 per cent of all MINI sales are fully electric. By 2030, the brand's entire line-up will consist of battery-electric vehicles only."

Renault

"For the past decade, Renault Group has been fully committed to the development of large-scale electric mobility. A pioneer in Europe, today its strategy moves up another gear. The Renaulution plan, unveiled in January 2021, focuses on the group’s electric leadership and the unique advantages of its E-TECH, hybrid and plug-in hybrid technology. It aims to widen its electric mobility offer, both in terms of vehicles and services. The objective of Renault Group is simple: to make electric travel accessible to everyone by offering solutions to every need."

Peugeot

"PEUGEOT is on track to deliver bold targets for electrification:

● 2023: every model in the PEUGEOT line-up will be ELECTRIFIED
● 2025: PEUGEOT will have a 100% ELECTRIC OFFER
● 2030: 100% OF PEUGEOTs SOLD IN EUROPE WILL BE 100% ELECTRIC"

Citroen

"At Citroën, we believe electric cars and vans should be accessible to everyone. That's why we offer an affordable range of nine electric and hybrid models, from the Ami 100% electric up to the cavernous ë-Relay. Our fully electric range consists of the Ami, ë-C4, ë-Berlingo and ë-SpaceTourer, with the latter comfortably accommodating up to nine. If you are looking for a plug-in hybrid, choose from the New C5 Aircross and New C5 X Plug-in Hybrid models, each with an electric range of up to 34 miles perfectly suited for the majority of daily journeys. Our award-winning van range now offers the choice of electric across each model, including the newly introduced ë-Berlingo Van electric. Each electric van offers minimal compromise with identical load volumes to their petrol and diesel counterparts. That's why we like to say we have every kind of electric for all kinds of people - POWER TO THE PEOPLE."

SEAT

SEAT S.A and the Volkswagen Group are planning to invest more than €7 billion to electrify Spain.
This would be the single largest industrial investment in the country’s history.
It is called the ‘Future: Fast Forward’ programme and would include the installation of a new battery cell factory in Sagunto, Valencia, which will employ more than 3,000 people.
The two companies intend to formally submit an application to the PERTE programme so this is still subject to final approval.
The German automaker is aiming for an annual production capacity of 40GWh to begin in 2026. Construction of the new plant must therefore start by the end of this year.
President of SEAT S.A, Wayne Griffiths, said: “Future: Fast Forward has the potential to transform the Spanish automotive industry and democratise electric mobility across Europe.”

Volvo

"Volvo Cars is taking a bold lead with electrification in the auto industry. As the first major premium car brand to commit to a hybrid or full-electric powertrain for all our models, we aim to drive the automotive sector forward, improve the quality of the air in our cities and increase our success as a business. Every new Volvo car launched from 2019 onwards will have an electric motor. This ambitious commitment shows that at Volvo Cars we dare to take the lead and embrace a cleaner mobility. It underlines our aim to reduce the environmental impact of our products, and to improve air quality in our cities. Most of all, it shows that we listen to our customers and their needs."

SKODA

By 2030, we want to be one of the top five best-selling brands in Europe,” the ŠKODA CEO outlines the company’s ambitious plan. This is to be achieved by offering affordable models, such as the new ŠKODA FABIA, while expanding the range of electrified cars. “We will add at least three more fully electric models to our portfolio by 2030. Depending on how markets develop, our target is for fully electric ŠKODA models to account for roughly 50 to 70 per cent of sales in Europe for 2030,” Schäfer said. By fostering the development and production of electric vehicles and their components in the Czech Republic, the Czech carmaker will help the traditionally industrial country become an electromobility hub. According to Schäfer, electric cars or their components are to be manufactured at all ŠKODA plants in the Czech Republic.

ALFA ROMEO

Global automaker conglomerate Stellantis has begun its pivot to electrification for all 14 of its brands, and today it announced that Alfa Romeo will be the first of them to ditch the internal combustion engine. The launch of the new 2023 Alfa Romeo Tonale plug-in hybrid represents the first electrified model in what will be a 100-percent electric lineup by 2027.
It'll be followed by a "fully locked and funded product plan," Imparato told us, consisting of one new vehicle launch or big reveal per year by 2030. Following the all-electric Quadrifoglio in 2025, the company says that every new Alfa Romeo launched will be a fully electric vehicle. By 2027, the last internal combustion engine-powered Alfa Romeo will leave the lineup, making Alfa's EV-exclusive lineup the first (but not last) of Stellantis' 14 brands to be fully electrified.

FIAT

We can now provide all our customers with a sustainable mobility solution, whatever their mobility needs, with simple technology and at an affordable cost. I am extremely proud of this for its consistency with our vision: ‘It’s only green when it’s green for all’.
And there’s more. Our journey toward sustainable mobility for all continues, with the aim to launch a new vehicle every year, starting as soon as in 2023. Each model will have an electric motor, to achieve a fully electric line-up from 2027.

TVRsmile

The brand’s new models will include an all-electric version of the new Griffith sports car, which will follow the V8 version into production in 2024. Following that, TVR intends to reveal two new cars. These are likely to be an all-electric saloon and an SUV if some teaser images of the new models are anything to go by. There’s also a sleek, electric sports car with a similar shape to the iconic Sagaris in the trio of teaser sketches, pointing to a bespoke electric sports car.