An epidemic of insanely slow drivers

[theplayingmantis]

pti said:

Wardy78 said:

theplayingmantis said:

Wardy78 said:

Your experience (or use of ACC) is wrong then. ACC doesn't change my driving one jot and certainly doesn't make me change lanes more/brake more etc? I don't recognise anything you are saying? The distance I set my car at is exactly the distance I would drive to without it? Do you take greater risks? Or set your system to be more cautious? Thats merely user error?

It keeps me up with traffic, would and does react quicker than I can, but makes the whole process far more relaxing. On very busy sections it's more a useful safety net and less useful, but on long quieter motorway journeys it's brilliant, if you use it properly and/or it's a good system (which it sounds like you/yours isn't.

Ditto in creeping traffic, it's really useful, IME.

Can't you keep up without out? Yes, easily

Are you not paying attention? Yes, all the time behind the wheel

Can you not modulate your pedals? Yes, two pedals, not difficult

I can also read a map, but choose to use GPS/SatNav at times.
I can also check my tyres pressures using a gauge, but choose to let the car's reading at times
I can change gear myself, but choose to let an auto gearbox to it at times
I can wind down a window, but choose a car with electric windows
I can turn my lights and windscreen wipers on manually, but chose to use the auto function at times
Etc

How can it possibly react quicker than you unless you don't pay attention and are inattentive. radar has a reaction time of around 200 milliseconds, about the same as an F1 driver or fighter pilot. The average human reaction time is 1.6secs.

I don't brake more the ACC brakes. My ACC seldom brakes, certainly no more than I do

I have it on the lowest setting. It's not user error it's a poor design in the car I have it on at least. sounds like it is given everything you've said

And yes it does do all those things. If someone pulls in in front of you in it's zone it brakes...ignoring the fact the car could be accelerating away. Likewise when pulling out behind a car accelerating it way. Anything in its zone it will apply brakes that's a simple fact. I never have it brake when I wouldn't anyway. Sounds like your system is st, or you are

If to not trigger it kicking in one needs to pull out so far in advance that it allows easy and safe undertaking by others, which has happened to me a couple of times it's a poor system. There is no need to pull out to overtake that far in advance. Perhaps your doesn't kick in that far ahead. Perhaps you get over that early anyway. If the latter you shouldn't as it's a waste of road space and leads to needless overtaking trains

ACC is a very useful tool on long quieter motorway journeys. It keeps to a set speed, keeps up with the flow of traffic, makes for more relaxing progress. Maybe your system is crap, but on mine it never brakes unless in an emergency or with sudden braking in front. When coming up to traffic, it just eases off the throttle to maintain a good distance. As I would do when it's not engaged.

You neglected to ackowledge his final - and quite accurate, in my experience - point. It can't anticipate like a human driver would.

Exactly. Better articulated as I'm not good with words

Anticipation. Like the car pulling in but accelerating away and when you pull out behind. With plain old cc the driver is anticipating and can leave it on. With ACC you are impacted unless you turn it off or override. Massive pita

[theplayingmantis]

Wardy78 said:

theplayingmantis said:

Wardy78 said:

theplayingmantis said:

Caddyshack said:

LARK F1 GTR said:

I've suddenly had an imaginary 20 MPH limit rolled out. I managed to go over a couple of speed humps the other day behind a Vauxhall Adam mooching along at 12 MPH. I had enough of that so I over took them and drove normally.

And a big shout out to the idiots between Thurrock & Rainham who think that NSL is 35 MPH. It fking well isn't!! They don't speed up when it's NSL or even get to 40 when it goes back down again.

Hindhead tunnel shows NSL and it s a dual carriageway with central reservation (actually a huge tunnel wall) but as it s an average speed camera area people don t know their rules and drive through at an exact 60 .i wouldn t mind if they moved to the left as they should and got out of the way for people who know they can do 70 but they hog the outside lane.

I undertook on my motorbike recently after a I flashed as someone was doing 55 outside lane with clear inside and he went a bit mad flashing as I made off for quite some time and still hogging that lane with other drivers backing up behind him. I only flashed him once as a wake up, waited, then moved left and slowly went past with a Paddington bear stare.

i now start by indicating right, a la autobahn, and flash if its a complete outer lane hog with 0 reason not to be left. if they dont move over i undertake.

if its someone who has moved right to overtake something in the distance (probably as they have acc on and don't want it to kick in needlessly!) and has ample opportunity to move over then back out again to let faster traffic past (the wait your turn mob, even though they could and should move left then out again, usually a bloke of a certain age - obviously not an issue if the vehicle cannot do the limit - HGV for example) and undertaking is not a 'safe' option (but them moving left and then back out would easily still be), then i leave the indicator on rather than flash.

in this scenario more umbrage will be taken by some who are lazy, as they are notionally in the OT lane for a reason, albeit either needlessly early, or they cant be bothered to move in then out again whilst overtaking a spaced out train of vehicles.

if its someone going absolutely know where speed matching what they are overtaking, which I've experienced a couple of times on the a30 and a12 recenetly, they get the full beams after a while. usually they are on the phone or fiddling with something and often 'professional' drivers...

You sound like a very aggressive/angry driver?

Maybe if you used a good ACC (and used it properly) it would ease that

Yep sure for indicating right, occasional flashing and undertaking those who are driving badly and selfishly.

You sound like a lazy and inattentive driver...

Yes.

What makes me sound like a lazy and inattentive driver?

Ok...

Well your reliance in ACC to needlessly ease off, change lanes too earlry etc and the other examples given. Reliance on ACC means not having to think. It's a flawed system that encourages laziness and inattentiveness.

Maybe you don't. But ACC encourages that

[theplayingmantis]

Sixteen Stone said:

I always give tractors or any agricultural vehicles plenty of room. You just never know...

All slower vehicles should be given plenty of room over and above normal stopping if you have no intention of overtaking. This allowing others who may be behind you thr opportunity to overtake you and the obstacle in turn.

[theplayingmantis]

silencepoint said:

This is why I prefer speed limiter vs ACC.

I can just set the limit to 79 for example and keep my foot on the pedal, there's no slowing down if I get too close or leave a lane change until the last second or it getting confused as my foot is controlling all of that. ACC is good for traffic as you can leave it to do its thing and just follow the line of cars but even then I don't really use it much.

I have never tried this will give it a go. But on hours long journeys cc is nice to give the feet a rest

[Wardy78]

theplayingmantis said:

Exactly. Better articulated as I'm not good with words

Anticipation. Like the car pulling in but accelerating away and when you pull out behind. With plain old cc the driver is anticipating and can leave it on. With ACC you are impacted unless you turn it off or override. Massive pita

You must have an old tech ACC. If I pull out after a car has overtaken, even with a very small gap, my car recognises it is accelerating and doesn't slow.

If you drive with ACC and don't anticipate like as if you are driving without it, you are the problem.

But both eventualities are minuscule, maybe once or twice on a journey. Even with your obvious deficiencies, it's 1% issue for 99% benefit.

But no-one is forcing you to use it.

[Wardy78]

theplayingmantis said:

Ok...

Well your reliance in ACC to needlessly ease off, change lanes too earlry etc and the other examples given. Reliance on ACC means not having to think. It's a flawed system that encourages laziness and inattentiveness.

Maybe you don't. But ACC encourages that

You're just making stuff up. Or assuming everyone has your deficiencies. Or most likely both.

[silencepoint]

theplayingmantis said:

silencepoint said:

This is why I prefer speed limiter vs ACC.

I can just set the limit to 79 for example and keep my foot on the pedal, there's no slowing down if I get too close or leave a lane change until the last second or it getting confused as my foot is controlling all of that. ACC is good for traffic as you can leave it to do its thing and just follow the line of cars but even then I don't really use it much.

I have never tried this will give it a go. But on hours long journeys cc is nice to give the feet a rest

I’ve driven like this for the last five years. I just lift to slow and let regen or engine braking do the work (depending on what car it is), then get back on the throttle when needed.

I also find I’m more consistent than most because ACC and manual pedal driving tend to fluctuate with gradients or small changes in traffic or just not being able to keep to a consistent speed. With the limiter set, my foot stays in one place and the car sits at the same speed instead of constantly creeping up and down a few mph. It takes less mental effort too. With ACC, if someone cuts into the gap the car can panic brake or slow down to recreate the lost gap in front. With the limiter you just lift and manage it yourself, and if needed you can gently close a gap so it’s not inviting someone to dive into it vs the car having an invisible barrier it wont cross.

[Robertb]

theplayingmantis said:

Fastdruid said:

pti said:

Wardy78 said:

But I'm there, it doesn't need to anticipate. I'm the one steering and in control of the car. This is ACC, it's not full autopilot? It's helping in the same way as auto lights/wipers/gearbox/etc. Non of which can anticipate like a human. All of which are, at times, very useful.

I have literally never had a situation where ACC's lack of anticipation had ever been present, let alone an issue. (Brake assist is a very different matter BTW!).

If anything, ACC (and normal cruise control) can improve the driver's ability to anticipate/plan, IME.

ACC is worse than traditional cruise in that particular scenario, 'forcing' you to pull out to overtake before necessary and potentially negatively impacting faster vehicles behind. Obviously you can override it but many don't bother.

IMO cruise improves the ability to anticipate, ACC doesn't. That's not to say it isn't a useful tool and would be even better if you were able to switch between ACC and traditional cruise, but in most cars you can't.

^This. With CC I have to concentrate on traffic, plan ahead, thinking things like "right so if I wait until I'm overtaking close then that car behind will be blocking me so I need to pull out early *or* cut CC until they're past and then pull out behind them". I turn it into a game of trying never to disengage which forces attention and planning.

ACC, meh. Just let the computer do it, turn brain off. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Spot on.

While you can just turn the computer on and brain off to an extent, ACC still requires intervention to get the best out of it... for example, I will turn it off to make space if I see a driver indicating to pull into my lane, or I will turn it off if I see cars slowing further on ahead as it can only 'see' the car ahead in range. I will anticipate and pull out if I can before it starts slowing down to match the speed of the car in front. But its fantastic on congested sections when you can just let it get on with it.

Without question, my fatigue is reduced after a long journey with ACC.

[RSTurboPaul]

Deleted said:

I've been following this topic since it started and during that time I've gone daily driving performance cars (BMW M2 and Clio RS200 Cup), to driving a Volvo XC70.

My driving style has gone from fast road, to old man. I pootle around now, even more so when my newborn is with me, and yesterday I made myself laugh when I looked in my rear view mirror. I've become the slow car at the front of a line of cars.

I've become everything I hated on the road .

On the upside, I'm finally achieving 40mpg in a car

I am not sure why this would need to become a thing - surely one would just drive 'normally' and to the conditions, but without the extra speed and/or looser risk tolerances that might come from youth / exuberance?

Holding up traffic just seems likely to increase risk of being a victim of a poorly executed overtaking attempt by someone frustrated by unnecessary lack of progress.

[Caddyshack]

To the earlier poster saying “I bet you wouldn’t flash a police car”. If they were in lane 2 doing 60 with a clear lane one on left I would take great pleasure in a polite flash and they would be very welcome to pull me over and ask me why I did it. Nothing wrong with explained that the lane next to them was empty and they should use it…it is unlikely they would make the error in the first place but if they did you are perfectly allowed to give a polite flash. They cannot arrest you or shoot you etc…you would just be polite, no attitude and then you would all be on your way….unless you have a dead body in the boot…that would be awkward.

[theplayingmantis]

Wardy78 said:

theplayingmantis said:

Ok...

Well your reliance in ACC to needlessly ease off, change lanes too earlry etc and the other examples given. Reliance on ACC means not having to think. It's a flawed system that encourages laziness and inattentiveness.

Maybe you don't. But ACC encourages that

You're just making stuff up. Or assuming everyone has your deficiencies. Or most likely both.

Who were you before the ban?

[theplayingmantis]

Wardy78 said:

theplayingmantis said:

Exactly. Better articulated as I'm not good with words

Anticipation. Like the car pulling in but accelerating away and when you pull out behind. With plain old cc the driver is anticipating and can leave it on. With ACC you are impacted unless you turn it off or override. Massive pita

You must have an old tech ACC. If I pull out after a car has overtaken, even with a very small gap, my car recognises it is accelerating and doesn't slow.

If you drive with ACC and don't anticipate like as if you are driving without it, you are the problem.

But both eventualities are minuscule, maybe once or twice on a journey. Even with your obvious deficiencies, it's 1% issue for 99% benefit.

But no-one is forcing you to use it.

As I have stated multiple times it's the drawbacks of ACC compared to cc. That's what's being discussed.

One needs to anticipate with cc on just as much, my acc and in a lot of cars per this thread makes life harder for those who want to drive properly without the desire to let the nanny systems do all the work. Others prefer to let the car make up for their own inattentive/lack of ability and just be a zombie, fair enough but thats one of the many reasons for the poor state of driving on our roads and threads like this.

Anyway i will leave you your pigeon chess as it's tiring.

[theplayingmantis]

silencepoint said:

theplayingmantis said:

silencepoint said:

This is why I prefer speed limiter vs ACC.

I can just set the limit to 79 for example and keep my foot on the pedal, there's no slowing down if I get too close or leave a lane change until the last second or it getting confused as my foot is controlling all of that. ACC is good for traffic as you can leave it to do its thing and just follow the line of cars but even then I don't really use it much.

I have never tried this will give it a go. But on hours long journeys cc is nice to give the feet a rest

I ve driven like this for the last five years. I just lift to slow and let regen or engine braking do the work (depending on what car it is), then get back on the throttle when needed.

I also find I m more consistent than most because ACC and manual pedal driving tend to fluctuate with gradients or small changes in traffic or just not being able to keep to a consistent speed. With the limiter set, my foot stays in one place and the car sits at the same speed instead of constantly creeping up and down a few mph. It takes less mental effort too. With ACC, if someone cuts into the gap the car can panic brake or slow down to recreate the lost gap in front. With the limiter you just lift and manage it yourself, and if needed you can gently close a gap so it s not inviting someone to dive into it vs the car having an invisible barrier it wont cross.

Yep hence why cc is better than ACC. Will try limiter next time

[theplayingmantis]

Robertb said:

theplayingmantis said:

Fastdruid said:

pti said:

Wardy78 said:

But I'm there, it doesn't need to anticipate. I'm the one steering and in control of the car. This is ACC, it's not full autopilot? It's helping in the same way as auto lights/wipers/gearbox/etc. Non of which can anticipate like a human. All of which are, at times, very useful.

I have literally never had a situation where ACC's lack of anticipation had ever been present, let alone an issue. (Brake assist is a very different matter BTW!).

If anything, ACC (and normal cruise control) can improve the driver's ability to anticipate/plan, IME.

ACC is worse than traditional cruise in that particular scenario, 'forcing' you to pull out to overtake before necessary and potentially negatively impacting faster vehicles behind. Obviously you can override it but many don't bother.

IMO cruise improves the ability to anticipate, ACC doesn't. That's not to say it isn't a useful tool and would be even better if you were able to switch between ACC and traditional cruise, but in most cars you can't.

^This. With CC I have to concentrate on traffic, plan ahead, thinking things like "right so if I wait until I'm overtaking close then that car behind will be blocking me so I need to pull out early *or* cut CC until they're past and then pull out behind them". I turn it into a game of trying never to disengage which forces attention and planning.

ACC, meh. Just let the computer do it, turn brain off. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Spot on.

While you can just turn the computer on and brain off to an extent, ACC still requires intervention to get the best out of it... for example, I will turn it off to make space if I see a driver indicating to pull into my lane, or I will turn it off if I see cars slowing further on ahead as it can only 'see' the car ahead in range. I will anticipate and pull out if I can before it starts slowing down to match the speed of the car in front. But its fantastic on congested sections when you can just let it get on with it.

Without question, my fatigue is reduced after a long journey with ACC.

Of course you turn it on and off to stop it kicking in. But with normal cc not needed. You can judge things turn it on and off or leave it on and pull out behind that rapidly overtaking car as it goes past without concern of the system panicking and braking. But ima. Congestion I would rather be in control, anticipating and judging and not having the car phantom brake needlessly causing further congestion behind.

[Hoofy]

It's crazy how many people think it's ok to sit in the right lane (2 lane D/C, A240 if you wanted to know) and despite the fact that they're (1) holding up the traffic doing 33mph (2) the queue of cars in the left lane is doing 36mph (including me because I was in a relaxed-just-get-home mood while observing others so I was happy to sit in the left lane and listen to music) (3) have no desire to turn right at the next 3 junctions that I was watching them drive through. I mean, they probably were going to turn right at some point between Epsom and Glasgow so I guess they were in the correct lane.

[Pit Pony]

Today I was behind 4 cars and a van coming out of a 20 zone into NSL.

Whilst in the 20 zone the front 3 cars were slowing to 8 mph to drive over the speed bumps. (I have previously driven over them in my fairly low Astra GTC at erm closer to the limit). There was no reason not to be doing 20 mph over them.

As we came into the NSL I booted it. Easily and safely got past the van and 2 cars, without going over the speed limit.

But then Had to brake and pull in behind the 2nd car, with a bend coming up. Both cars doing 35 mph heading towards the bend. This is a bend with a clear sight line across an open field, and i have taken it in the dry at 60 mph previously. However today the front car, slows to 20 mph, takes the bend and speeds up to 25 mph before slowing for the next bend. No opportunity to overtake due to on coming traffic. Luckily I was turning right at the next junction, and they all went straight on.....

You could say, my overtaking was unnecessary, it didn't achieve anything, but 50% of the time that I overtake i usually find I save 3 or 4 minutes at the next set of traffic lights, because if I stayed behind the insanely slow driver, it would have changed.

[bigothunter]

Pit Pony said:

You could say, my overtaking was unnecessary, it didn't achieve anything, but 50% of the time that I overtake i usually find I save 3 or 4 minutes at the next set of traffic lights, because if I stayed behind the insanely slow driver, it would have changed.

Just Leave Earlier

[robinessex]

Saturday morning, quick supermarket visit for shopping before the mob arrives. Set of for home, B class road, 30mph limit, just 3 cars in front, doing 20mph !!! The rest of the road is clear and visible for about half a mile, with no oncoming traffic. A Police vehicle, with its blue lights going, looms into view from the opposite direction. The 3 idiots in front all immediately and simultaneously did a full emergency stop!!! Nothing on the other side of the road to inhibit the police on their emergency errand. Beggars belief.

[5s Alive]

bigothunter said:

Pit Pony said:

You could say, my overtaking was unnecessary, it didn't achieve anything, but 50% of the time that I overtake i usually find I save 3 or 4 minutes at the next set of traffic lights, because if I stayed behind the insanely slow driver, it would have changed.

Just Leave Earlier

Yes, but overtaking is much more enjoyable. More often than not it also presents me with a clear road ahead (for a while at least) where the car just flows along effortlessly. Doesn't matter if those cars then catch up as you enter a 20/30, it's infinitely preferable to plodding along in the queue. Still possible here in Borders.

[Wardy78]

Robertb said:

theplayingmantis said:

Fastdruid said:

pti said:

Wardy78 said:

But I'm there, it doesn't need to anticipate. I'm the one steering and in control of the car. This is ACC, it's not full autopilot? It's helping in the same way as auto lights/wipers/gearbox/etc. Non of which can anticipate like a human. All of which are, at times, very useful.

I have literally never had a situation where ACC's lack of anticipation had ever been present, let alone an issue. (Brake assist is a very different matter BTW!).

If anything, ACC (and normal cruise control) can improve the driver's ability to anticipate/plan, IME.

ACC is worse than traditional cruise in that particular scenario, 'forcing' you to pull out to overtake before necessary and potentially negatively impacting faster vehicles behind. Obviously you can override it but many don't bother.

IMO cruise improves the ability to anticipate, ACC doesn't. That's not to say it isn't a useful tool and would be even better if you were able to switch between ACC and traditional cruise, but in most cars you can't.

^This. With CC I have to concentrate on traffic, plan ahead, thinking things like "right so if I wait until I'm overtaking close then that car behind will be blocking me so I need to pull out early *or* cut CC until they're past and then pull out behind them". I turn it into a game of trying never to disengage which forces attention and planning.

ACC, meh. Just let the computer do it, turn brain off. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Spot on.

While you can just turn the computer on and brain off to an extent, ACC still requires intervention to get the best out of it... for example, I will turn it off to make space if I see a driver indicating to pull into my lane, or I will turn it off if I see cars slowing further on ahead as it can only 'see' the car ahead in range. I will anticipate and pull out if I can before it starts slowing down to match the speed of the car in front. But its fantastic on congested sections when you can just let it get on with it.

Without question, my fatigue is reduced after a long journey with ACC.

Exactly.

Alas some seemingly don't have the intelligence to use it properly.