What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
If you want fun, go for an older car (say pre 2010) and always ask yourself "what were the manufacturers trying to achieve when they built this car?"
My integra for instance was built by honda to show how good a fwd car could drive, budget wasn't the main focus. My mx5 was built to be lightweight, go racing and be fun for everyone. My lotus was built to be as light as possible and fast around a race track.
Manufacturers aren't stupid, they know their market and usually nail their brief. Unfortunately for us the ever dwindling number of car enthusiasts mean there's no need to focus on cars like this anymore, that's why most cars now are auto EV rocket ships - people are lazy and uninterested in driving. That's fine of course, but if you want excitement, I would look elsewhere.
My integra for instance was built by honda to show how good a fwd car could drive, budget wasn't the main focus. My mx5 was built to be lightweight, go racing and be fun for everyone. My lotus was built to be as light as possible and fast around a race track.
Manufacturers aren't stupid, they know their market and usually nail their brief. Unfortunately for us the ever dwindling number of car enthusiasts mean there's no need to focus on cars like this anymore, that's why most cars now are auto EV rocket ships - people are lazy and uninterested in driving. That's fine of course, but if you want excitement, I would look elsewhere.
Jonstar said:
always ask yourself "what were the manufacturers trying to achieve when they built this car?"
this nails it. it's why the "latest must be best" is wrong. The latest certainly benefits from the best knowledge, materials and technology but enthusiastic driver involvement is low on the spec.CABC said:
Jonstar said:
always ask yourself "what were the manufacturers trying to achieve when they built this car?"
this nails it. it's why the "latest must be best" is wrong. The latest certainly benefits from the best knowledge, materials and technology but enthusiastic driver involvement is low on the spec.Maybe an Ariel but that's about it.
cerb4.5lee said:
nessiemac said:
John D. said:
Bet the wife hates it though.
Yeah, she's not a fan unfortunately.So looking at something completely different and thinking of scratching the TVR itch.
I really like your TVR idea as well.
nessiemac said:
TameRacingDriver said:
Shnozz said:
Owned a 986S for a while. Wonderfully engineered car but found it a bit dull after a few months to be honest. Can see the attraction but not exciting enough for me.
Sums it up perfectly for me. When I first got mine, I was chuffed to bits about having a Porsche but ultimately as you say, slightly dull / aloof. Not quite sure why I tried again but wished I hadn't.Bought my immaculate 986S after having a modified MX5 NA which the wife hated.
The Boxster was very impressive and competent but left me rather cold when it came to actual fun behind the wheel.
The Boxster was sold after 9 months and bought this which is rather more involving.....
After the 986S went I was back in an S2 Exige followed then by an Evora. After 5 years then in an Aston Vantage I was back to Lotus….something just makes it hard to not come back to them.
It is interesting to see how the changing relative values of these cars alter their appeal. Basically, a 986 Boxster is outstanding value.
Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
braddo said:
Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
interesting to hear replies to this. the only benefit I can see for a track 3 series is strong power, rwd and .... low cost. Fabulous road cars but not track cars really. running costs for a Porsche an obvious put off. I'm just moving on from my track day Caterham to find a new experience. a Cayster appeals as the feel on track is good, I don't mind highish running costs but I am concerned about the unpredictability.
braddo said:
It is interesting to see how the changing relative values of these cars alter their appeal. Basically, a 986 Boxster is outstanding value.
Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
Having read about engine problems and expensive repair/maintenance bills with 996 (I just didn't read about other generations), I wonder whether 1st-2nd gen base Caymans are/going to be as bad down the line.Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
turboLP said:
braddo said:
It is interesting to see how the changing relative values of these cars alter their appeal. Basically, a 986 Boxster is outstanding value.
Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
Having read about engine problems and expensive repair/maintenance bills with 996 (I just didn't read about other generations), I wonder whether 1st-2nd gen base Caymans are/going to be as bad down the line.Very few Elises are under £15k these days. Not many M3 coupes of any age under that price level either. Very few cheap NA MX5s (ignoring rusty basket cases) and a good NC 2 litre is £4k+. Which is about where Boxster prices start...
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
The bad news about the 986 is they sold loads so they're cheap. So some people who buy expect them to be cheap to run but a few issues pop up and suddenly the car is not worth saving. So there are loads of potential turds for sale which are not worth buying. But the uneducated won't know this or they'll just get screwed over by dodgy sellers.
There are a lot less Caymans about. Don't forget when these were first launched they were more expensive that the soft top. Only Porsche can get away with those manoeuvres.
Shnozz said:
nessiemac said:
TameRacingDriver said:
Shnozz said:
Owned a 986S for a while. Wonderfully engineered car but found it a bit dull after a few months to be honest. Can see the attraction but not exciting enough for me.
Sums it up perfectly for me. When I first got mine, I was chuffed to bits about having a Porsche but ultimately as you say, slightly dull / aloof. Not quite sure why I tried again but wished I hadn't.Bought my immaculate 986S after having a modified MX5 NA which the wife hated.
The Boxster was very impressive and competent but left me rather cold when it came to actual fun behind the wheel.
The Boxster was sold after 9 months and bought this which is rather more involving.....
After the 986S went I was back in an S2 Exige followed then by an Evora. After 5 years then in an Aston Vantage I was back to Lotus….something just makes it hard to not come back to them.
braddo said:
I knowTameRacingDriver had a terrible experience with a Boxster but £6-7k should buy a good 2.7, or maybe a 3.2 S. It's at the point where if you want a cheap track car with reasonable pace, a Boxster is better value than any 3-series BMW (which are too heavy and need a lot of modding)!
If I was doing another 986, I'd try a 2.5 this time. Shorter gearing, a little slower, small wheels, less bork risk, a little cheaper to buy, I think it would be perfect.Edited by TameRacingDriver on Saturday 13th July 19:06
white_goodman said:
Had an NB MX5 as my 4th car (only a year old at the time) and to be honest to drive I didn't much like it (but it was pretty and I loved the idea of owning a "flash" convertible sports car at 24 years old). I thought the engine was a bit of a "boat anchor" out of a family hatchback that wasn't particularly keen to rev and sounded harsh when I did and the handling wasn't great. I found that mine was more prone to understeer than oversteer and generally too much grip and not enough power (16 inch wheels). Nice gearbox, 100% reliable and easy to live with though.
So I sold it after about a year of ownership and bought an E30 325i Convertible. Objectively worse handling but more steering feel, a lovely silky smooth straight six engine that sounded fantastic and definitely more power than grip on 15s!
I also found my 205 GTi, Corrado VR6 and newage Impreza WRX a more enjoyable driving experience than the NB on the open road.
If you're set on a "sports car" though, the ND2 MX5/GR86 sound pretty perfect for something 'modern". Relatively light, manual gearboxes, revvy NA engines etc and yet should be fairly easy to live with. Not tried a GR86 yet but I loved the GT86 I test drove in spite of the so-so engine, it's the closest I've experienced for feel to an older car but the GR86 with the extra power and without the torque dip just seems like it would be the complete package.
But maybe go with something older. Would have loved an Elise when I got my NB but way out of budget but I wonder if I should have gone with an NA MX5/mk3 MR2/6-pot Z3 instead. I regret not owning a mid-engined car when they were still affordable. A 350Z/370Z is worth a look too? More reliable/cheaper to run than a Porsche, lusty NA V6 and quite "raw" by all accounts.
But playing "devil's advocate", maybe a sports car is not what you want at all. We mock the YT generation for buying supercars and driving them around London but maybe that's not so silly after all. You can hardly use a fraction of their performance on any UK road but I bet you get a sense of occassion even driving at 30mph in them.
Not suggesting you buy a supercar but a V8 SL/SLK, XK/F-Type/Mustang GT would still give you a warm glow/sense of occassion driving at low speeds I think and an automatic transmission works better for urban driving. More expensive to run certainly but more "special" at low speeds.
Conversely, something like a Supercharged MINI Cooper S or Fiesta ST would be quite fun for bombing around at lower speeds I think? Practical and easy to live with too and does RWD really matter?
Thinking more about my situation, it's important to stress that I'm not really into the whole blasting a roadster through tight corners at full throttle driving style. I trust there are thrills there, but one, I'm too chicken for that and two, I don't find that a sustainable model in the real world with traffic etc. I have to admit that (somewhat to my chagrin*) I like acceleration and deceleration. I like to slow down before the corner and floor it on the way out. I like flooring it between traffic lights and slowing down gradually by letting off the throttle (not breaking hard). What I like about acceleration is for the most part the sound of the motor reving, and especially the sound of RPM dropping naturally when you let off the gas pedal at high RPM.So I sold it after about a year of ownership and bought an E30 325i Convertible. Objectively worse handling but more steering feel, a lovely silky smooth straight six engine that sounded fantastic and definitely more power than grip on 15s!
I also found my 205 GTi, Corrado VR6 and newage Impreza WRX a more enjoyable driving experience than the NB on the open road.
If you're set on a "sports car" though, the ND2 MX5/GR86 sound pretty perfect for something 'modern". Relatively light, manual gearboxes, revvy NA engines etc and yet should be fairly easy to live with. Not tried a GR86 yet but I loved the GT86 I test drove in spite of the so-so engine, it's the closest I've experienced for feel to an older car but the GR86 with the extra power and without the torque dip just seems like it would be the complete package.
But maybe go with something older. Would have loved an Elise when I got my NB but way out of budget but I wonder if I should have gone with an NA MX5/mk3 MR2/6-pot Z3 instead. I regret not owning a mid-engined car when they were still affordable. A 350Z/370Z is worth a look too? More reliable/cheaper to run than a Porsche, lusty NA V6 and quite "raw" by all accounts.
But playing "devil's advocate", maybe a sports car is not what you want at all. We mock the YT generation for buying supercars and driving them around London but maybe that's not so silly after all. You can hardly use a fraction of their performance on any UK road but I bet you get a sense of occassion even driving at 30mph in them.
Not suggesting you buy a supercar but a V8 SL/SLK, XK/F-Type/Mustang GT would still give you a warm glow/sense of occassion driving at low speeds I think and an automatic transmission works better for urban driving. More expensive to run certainly but more "special" at low speeds.
Conversely, something like a Supercharged MINI Cooper S or Fiesta ST would be quite fun for bombing around at lower speeds I think? Practical and easy to live with too and does RWD really matter?
Edited by white_goodman on Monday 1st July 18:08
Edited by white_goodman on Monday 1st July 18:09
When I'm on the street, I get excited when I hear a V8 Mustang/Mercedes, 370Z or even a Subaru rumble. That stuff speaks to me somehow. My bro has a 1st gen turbo Forester with a loud exhaust: the car is pretty meh, too floaty, but the sound alone is something and flooring it is fun (shame the engine bay is so insulated you can only hear the sound thanks to the loud exhaust, though).
That, in addition to connectedness (to some degree) to the machine through the controls and some sensation of speed (ie not feeling like I'm wearing 5 condoms) is what I'm after.
In other words, I'm more after the sounds than agility, but while retaining connectedness. So it looks like maybe I'm more of a supercar crowd (not that I could ever afford that, not with EU/UK headed in no-ICE direction).
The funny thing is that sometimes when I think of sports cars, especially if I watch an ND Miata review and listen to the
Side-note: I actually kind of liked the engine note in the 1st gen 86, and the feel was alright (I'll have to drive it again, push a little more).
Edited by turboLP on Monday 15th July 21:06
Edited by turboLP on Monday 15th July 21:08
turboLP said:
Thinking more about my situation, it's important to stress that I'm not really into the whole blasting a roadster through tight corners at full throttle driving style. I trust there are thrills there, but one, I'm too chicken for that and two, I don't find that a sustainable model in the real world with traffic etc. I have to admit that (somewhat to my chagrin*) I like acceleration and deceleration. I like to slow down before the corner and floor it on the way out. I like flooring it between traffic lights and slowing down gradually by letting off the throttle (not breaking hard). What I like about acceleration is for the most part the sound of the motor reving, and especially the sound of RPM dropping naturally when you let off the gas pedal at high RPM.
When I'm on the street, I get excited when I hear a V8 Mustang/Mercedes, 370Z or even a Subaru rumble. That stuff speaks to me somehow. My bro has a 1st gen turbo Forester with a loud exhaust: the car is pretty meh, too floaty, but the sound alone is something and flooring it is fun (shame the engine bay is so insulated you can only hear the sound thanks to the loud exhaust, though).
That, in addition to connectedness (to some degree) to the machine through the controls and some sensation of speed (ie not feeling like I'm wearing 5 condoms) is what I'm after.
In other words, I'm more after the sounds than agility, but while retaining connectedness. So it looks like maybe I'm more of a supercar crowd (not that I could ever afford that, not with EU/UK headed in no-ICE direction).
The funny thing is that sometimes when I think of sports cars, especially if I watch an ND Miata review and listen to the "slow car fast" rhetoric, I get carried away and imagine driving fast (even if it's "slow car fast") through curvy backroads or racetracks and think that I want that... but realistically, what I'm actually drawn to the most is the sounds + a sense that I'm in a car, not an airliner (where you can travel at 500 MPH and feel nothing). So tossability is not really what I'm after and, therefore, ND Miata is definitely not for me.
Side-note: I actually kind of liked the engine note in the 1st gen 86, and the feel was alright (I'll have to drive it again, push a little more).
a classic with narrow tyres and throaty exhaust? Italian possibly. When I'm on the street, I get excited when I hear a V8 Mustang/Mercedes, 370Z or even a Subaru rumble. That stuff speaks to me somehow. My bro has a 1st gen turbo Forester with a loud exhaust: the car is pretty meh, too floaty, but the sound alone is something and flooring it is fun (shame the engine bay is so insulated you can only hear the sound thanks to the loud exhaust, though).
That, in addition to connectedness (to some degree) to the machine through the controls and some sensation of speed (ie not feeling like I'm wearing 5 condoms) is what I'm after.
In other words, I'm more after the sounds than agility, but while retaining connectedness. So it looks like maybe I'm more of a supercar crowd (not that I could ever afford that, not with EU/UK headed in no-ICE direction).
The funny thing is that sometimes when I think of sports cars, especially if I watch an ND Miata review and listen to the "slow car fast" rhetoric, I get carried away and imagine driving fast (even if it's "slow car fast") through curvy backroads or racetracks and think that I want that... but realistically, what I'm actually drawn to the most is the sounds + a sense that I'm in a car, not an airliner (where you can travel at 500 MPH and feel nothing). So tossability is not really what I'm after and, therefore, ND Miata is definitely not for me.
Side-note: I actually kind of liked the engine note in the 1st gen 86, and the feel was alright (I'll have to drive it again, push a little more).
CABC said:
turboLP said:
Thinking more about my situation, it's important to stress that I'm not really into the whole blasting a roadster through tight corners at full throttle driving style. I trust there are thrills there, but one, I'm too chicken for that and two, I don't find that a sustainable model in the real world with traffic etc. I have to admit that (somewhat to my chagrin*) I like acceleration and deceleration. I like to slow down before the corner and floor it on the way out. I like flooring it between traffic lights and slowing down gradually by letting off the throttle (not breaking hard). What I like about acceleration is for the most part the sound of the motor reving, and especially the sound of RPM dropping naturally when you let off the gas pedal at high RPM.
When I'm on the street, I get excited when I hear a V8 Mustang/Mercedes, 370Z or even a Subaru rumble. That stuff speaks to me somehow. My bro has a 1st gen turbo Forester with a loud exhaust: the car is pretty meh, too floaty, but the sound alone is something and flooring it is fun (shame the engine bay is so insulated you can only hear the sound thanks to the loud exhaust, though).
That, in addition to connectedness (to some degree) to the machine through the controls and some sensation of speed (ie not feeling like I'm wearing 5 condoms) is what I'm after.
In other words, I'm more after the sounds than agility, but while retaining connectedness. So it looks like maybe I'm more of a supercar crowd (not that I could ever afford that, not with EU/UK headed in no-ICE direction).
The funny thing is that sometimes when I think of sports cars, especially if I watch an ND Miata review and listen to the "slow car fast" rhetoric, I get carried away and imagine driving fast (even if it's "slow car fast") through curvy backroads or racetracks and think that I want that... but realistically, what I'm actually drawn to the most is the sounds + a sense that I'm in a car, not an airliner (where you can travel at 500 MPH and feel nothing). So tossability is not really what I'm after and, therefore, ND Miata is definitely not for me.
Side-note: I actually kind of liked the engine note in the 1st gen 86, and the feel was alright (I'll have to drive it again, push a little more).
a classic with narrow tyres and throaty exhaust? Italian possibly. When I'm on the street, I get excited when I hear a V8 Mustang/Mercedes, 370Z or even a Subaru rumble. That stuff speaks to me somehow. My bro has a 1st gen turbo Forester with a loud exhaust: the car is pretty meh, too floaty, but the sound alone is something and flooring it is fun (shame the engine bay is so insulated you can only hear the sound thanks to the loud exhaust, though).
That, in addition to connectedness (to some degree) to the machine through the controls and some sensation of speed (ie not feeling like I'm wearing 5 condoms) is what I'm after.
In other words, I'm more after the sounds than agility, but while retaining connectedness. So it looks like maybe I'm more of a supercar crowd (not that I could ever afford that, not with EU/UK headed in no-ICE direction).
The funny thing is that sometimes when I think of sports cars, especially if I watch an ND Miata review and listen to the "slow car fast" rhetoric, I get carried away and imagine driving fast (even if it's "slow car fast") through curvy backroads or racetracks and think that I want that... but realistically, what I'm actually drawn to the most is the sounds + a sense that I'm in a car, not an airliner (where you can travel at 500 MPH and feel nothing). So tossability is not really what I'm after and, therefore, ND Miata is definitely not for me.
Side-note: I actually kind of liked the engine note in the 1st gen 86, and the feel was alright (I'll have to drive it again, push a little more).
havoc said:
Sounds very (old-style) TVR-ish - Chimaera would be perfect for that. Possibly Morgan, but the affordable ones aren't that good to drive at all. AC Cobra replica maybe, but they can be spiky if not set-up right.
can't disagree with any of those. as they're lightweight you get a strong sense of acceleration/deceleration. something that a much bigger and heavier Mustang doesn't deliver quite so easily. (not saying 450hp feels slow, but...). OP doesn't want fast corners, so these are good choices.CABC said:
havoc said:
Sounds very (old-style) TVR-ish - Chimaera would be perfect for that. Possibly Morgan, but the affordable ones aren't that good to drive at all. AC Cobra replica maybe, but they can be spiky if not set-up right.
can't disagree with any of those. as they're lightweight you get a strong sense of acceleration/deceleration. something that a much bigger and heavier Mustang doesn't deliver quite so easily. (not saying 450hp feels slow, but...). OP doesn't want fast corners, so these are good choices.
turboLP said:
I like to slow down before the corner and floor it on the way out.
Perfect for a rear engined Porsche. Have you tried a 911?They are made for this. Their ability to grip under throttle exiting a bend is their party piece. You can apply way more throttle than you can in other cars as the weight over the rear axle means they will grip more. You can almost feel this digging in and gripping where you would expect another car to start to lose grip and maybe start to spin an inside wheel or be twitching towards a slide. You will also feel the weight shift rear as you apply throttle and the front will naturally straighten up without straightening the wheels as the rear end starts to decide where the car is going. Having the engine in the back makes them unique. It's all about rear end grip which means grip exiting a bend and also getting the power down off the line.
ATM said:
turboLP said:
I like to slow down before the corner and floor it on the way out.
Perfect for a rear engined Porsche. Have you tried a 911?They are made for this. Their ability to grip under throttle exiting a bend is their party piece. You can apply way more throttle than you can in other cars as the weight over the rear axle means they will grip more. You can almost feel this digging in and gripping where you would expect another car to start to lose grip and maybe start to spin an inside wheel or be twitching towards a slide. You will also feel the weight shift rear as you apply throttle and the front will naturally straighten up without straightening the wheels as the rear end starts to decide where the car is going. Having the engine in the back makes them unique. It's all about rear end grip which means grip exiting a bend and also getting the power down off the line.
ATM said:
Perfect for a rear engined Porsche. Have you tried a 911?
They are made for this. Their ability to grip under throttle exiting a bend is their party piece. You can apply way more throttle than you can in other cars as the weight over the rear axle means they will grip more. You can almost feel this digging in and gripping where you would expect another car to start to lose grip and maybe start to spin an inside wheel or be twitching towards a slide. You will also feel the weight shift rear as you apply throttle and the front will naturally straighten up without straightening the wheels as the rear end starts to decide where the car is going. Having the engine in the back makes them unique. It's all about rear end grip which means grip exiting a bend and also getting the power down off the line.
That sounds joyous when the goal with every new "performance" car is AWD point and stamp dynamics.They are made for this. Their ability to grip under throttle exiting a bend is their party piece. You can apply way more throttle than you can in other cars as the weight over the rear axle means they will grip more. You can almost feel this digging in and gripping where you would expect another car to start to lose grip and maybe start to spin an inside wheel or be twitching towards a slide. You will also feel the weight shift rear as you apply throttle and the front will naturally straighten up without straightening the wheels as the rear end starts to decide where the car is going. Having the engine in the back makes them unique. It's all about rear end grip which means grip exiting a bend and also getting the power down off the line.
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