RE: 2024 Porsche Taycan Turbo S | UK Review
Discussion
pheonix478 said:
cidered77 said:
...
But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I think that's fair to a point. IMO the Taycan is a brilliant car, I'll almost certainly replace mine with another but that's the thing I will replace it, whereas I've got ICE cars that are objectively worse in almost every way that I'll never sell. That said, it's unfair to liken a mass produced, fast family car, irrespective of drivetrain, to the very best ICE cars. How many people buy a big new M/RS/AMG and keep that forever? I don't think the lack of "emotional reaction or desire" is unique to EV's, I have the same reaction to most modern cars. Personally I think ICE cars generally peaked in the 90's with a few notable exceptions. Hopefully, EV's have yet to reach peak enjoyment.But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I was out in the Caterham earlier and I absolutely loved it. The noise, the gearchanges, the lightness etc, but I also love the F82 M4 in comparison as well. Yet it could be argued that I'd find the M4 boring after the Caterham really. I'm going out in the 370Z Roadster later too, seeing as the weather is nice at last!
Would I get the same pleasure from a performance electric car in comparison to those 3 ICE cars...who knows?
cerb4.5lee said:
...
Would I get the same pleasure from a performance electric car in comparison to those 3 ICE cars...who knows?
I doubt it. Is the Taycan as fun to drive as a Caterham or 370Z, no, absolutely not but it is still decent fun, very fast and crazy comfortable. It's not a fair comparison, I can't take my kids to school in a Caterham. You have to compare it to an M5/AMG/RS and yes I think it's more fun than all of them, otherwise I would have got one of those...Would I get the same pleasure from a performance electric car in comparison to those 3 ICE cars...who knows?
cerb4.5lee said:
pheonix478 said:
cidered77 said:
...
But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I think that's fair to a point. IMO the Taycan is a brilliant car, I'll almost certainly replace mine with another but that's the thing I will replace it, whereas I've got ICE cars that are objectively worse in almost every way that I'll never sell. That said, it's unfair to liken a mass produced, fast family car, irrespective of drivetrain, to the very best ICE cars. How many people buy a big new M/RS/AMG and keep that forever? I don't think the lack of "emotional reaction or desire" is unique to EV's, I have the same reaction to most modern cars. Personally I think ICE cars generally peaked in the 90's with a few notable exceptions. Hopefully, EV's have yet to reach peak enjoyment.But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I was out in the Caterham earlier and I absolutely loved it. The noise, the gearchanges, the lightness etc, but I also love the F82 M4 in comparison as well. Yet it could be argued that I'd find the M4 boring after the Caterham really. I'm going out in the 370Z Roadster later too, seeing as the weather is nice at last!
Would I get the same pleasure from a performance electric car in comparison to those 3 ICE cars...who knows?
So much "character" is defined by powertrain, surely. And with an EV - no gears, noise if it exists at all, is all fake (ok, as it is on modern ICE cars, but to a much greater extent).... you're left with "how fast does it go in a straight line", and "how is the throttle and brake pedal mapping". There's room for differentiation in terms of how a car might handle - but, whether than creates anything that might be *properly desired*.... can't see it. and i mean real desire here, not just "this is a decent option for me as a daily on BIK". The kind of desirability that sees this worth more than it's price today in 30 year's time...
And for performance - it *did* used to matter, but i don't think it does so much now. So so much desirability in the past was defined by the stats, and performance - remember the shock of the first 400bhp super saloon (E39), or the reaction in the Daily Main to the Lotus Carlton? I still remember now being giddy as a kid seeing 201.3mph in Car magazine against the F40....but when horrible Volvo EX30 SUV at the cheaper end of the EV spectrum can accelerate quicker than that F40, then really - who cares ?
But we may just be old, and we're just programmed whether we're conscious of it or not to lust after the stuff that was cool when we were kids....
cidered77 said:
Time will tell - and i take the chap above's point on the Taycan being a very good car. But EVs in the long term sustaining themselves as genuine objects of desire from a driving experience perspective? i still think it's tenuous...
So much "character" is defined by powertrain, surely. And with an EV - no gears, noise if it exists at all, is all fake (ok, as it is on modern ICE cars, but to a much greater extent).... you're left with "how fast does it go in a straight line", and "how is the throttle and brake pedal mapping". There's room for differentiation in terms of how a car might handle - but, whether than creates anything that might be *properly desired*.... can't see it. and i mean real desire here, not just "this is a decent option for me as a daily on BIK". The kind of desirability that sees this worth more than it's price today in 30 year's time...
And for performance - it *did* used to matter, but i don't think it does so much now. So so much desirability in the past was defined by the stats, and performance - remember the shock of the first 400bhp super saloon (E39), or the reaction in the Daily Main to the Lotus Carlton? I still remember now being giddy as a kid seeing 201.3mph in Car magazine against the F40....but when horrible Volvo EX30 SUV at the cheaper end of the EV spectrum can accelerate quicker than that F40, then really - who cares ?
But we may just be old, and we're just programmed whether we're conscious of it or not to lust after the stuff that was cool when we were kids....
The Taycan has two gears. Most EVs make do with one but do not have and arguably need a high top speed. So much "character" is defined by powertrain, surely. And with an EV - no gears, noise if it exists at all, is all fake (ok, as it is on modern ICE cars, but to a much greater extent).... you're left with "how fast does it go in a straight line", and "how is the throttle and brake pedal mapping". There's room for differentiation in terms of how a car might handle - but, whether than creates anything that might be *properly desired*.... can't see it. and i mean real desire here, not just "this is a decent option for me as a daily on BIK". The kind of desirability that sees this worth more than it's price today in 30 year's time...
And for performance - it *did* used to matter, but i don't think it does so much now. So so much desirability in the past was defined by the stats, and performance - remember the shock of the first 400bhp super saloon (E39), or the reaction in the Daily Main to the Lotus Carlton? I still remember now being giddy as a kid seeing 201.3mph in Car magazine against the F40....but when horrible Volvo EX30 SUV at the cheaper end of the EV spectrum can accelerate quicker than that F40, then really - who cares ?
But we may just be old, and we're just programmed whether we're conscious of it or not to lust after the stuff that was cool when we were kids....
The thing is with ICEs the character of the engine/gearbox is actually shortcomings that create that. Noise is energy wasted creating that noise and obviously heat. I was never one that thought manual gearboxes were the be all to end all. Yes in a purely analogue car with no ALBs with servo assistance , traction control or power steering but most want all those driver aids but just like to demonstrate their god like driving by fiddling with a synchromesh gearbox. Try driving a straight cut sequential box and you won't hear the engine for the box whine.
I can respect cars like the Mx5 which is a more modern version of my S1 Elan and not bonkersly expensive.
Last week I was driving a 911 4S and my 911 obsessed GF said she actually found it noisy and uncomfortable and preferred the Taycan. SWMBO obviously got her way.
murphyaj said:
It's like saying that a roast dinner is objectively better than a burger; they are just different things that different people can enjoy. One might be more nutritionally balanced than the other, or healthier, or have a more nuanced flavour profile, but that doesn't mean people can't prefer the other one.
I'm all for people having opinions, and I'm all for a heated discussion, but this has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous!A burger Vs a Sunday roast. I don't think that's appropriate talk.
You're either Southern and aren't using enough gravy or you're a vegetarian! AICMFP!
ETA: or you make crap Yorkies!
Why are EV drivers seemingly so desperate to try and convince people who don't like them, that they're wrong? It really does seem to trigger something quite sanctimonious in some people. You haven't developed a superpower, or found the cure for cancer, you've just bought a car. If you like that car, then fair do's, but why worry so much about what others think about them?
As for them being better in every way, that's very dependent on what your prime use for the car is, and what you're looking for from the experience. Purely subjective, there is no definitive answer.
My daily is a 2023 VW Transporter, that I use to go to work, go to football in winter, Ikea runs etc etc. What's it's primary power source is, is completely inconsequential to me. Whether it's powered by electricity, diesel, petrol, uranium or unicorn tears, it doesn't matter. As long as it gets me where I want to go, I'm not fussed. If that was everything I wanted from a vehicle, then great, yeah, an electric car or van would fit the bill nicely. After all, there's no need for "soul" or thrills on the daily commute.
The thing is, when it comes to my car, I don't use it like that. It's purely for recreation and enjoyment, I run a 25 year old C43 because it reminds me of being a snot nosed kid, who used to dream of owning one. I only do 1200 or so miles a year in it, and quite like the wasted energy and heat (seriously, who thinks about that when they're driving any car?!) that creates the V8 vroom vroom noises. I like tinkering around renewing the spark plugs, replacing the belts and pulleys, changing the oil and maintaining it too. I don't care how fast it is or isn't, how much fuel it uses, how bad for environment it is, or how many pedals I can or can't use in traffic. There's no depreciation, the mileage I do means the running costs are moot, and it makes me feel good. So it that sense, no, for me, any electric car isn't "superior".
I know this is Pistonheads, where we should all be powerfully built company car drivers doing 30000 miles a year, and looking for the next tax break for our 6 or 7 figure salary...but...and I appreciate this is a crazy notion, not everyone is the same.
We all want and get different things from our cars and ownership experiences, what one person's "superior" is, is just boring to someone else.
My wife is a community nurse, and her next car will undoubtedly be an EV, because it makes sense. Hey, I may even borrow it from time to time! But whilst my car is purely for recreation and pleasure, it'll be a good while yet before I'm ready to kiss goodbye to my unburnt hydrocarbons.
That doesn't make me a "hater", I just prefer an engine.
As for them being better in every way, that's very dependent on what your prime use for the car is, and what you're looking for from the experience. Purely subjective, there is no definitive answer.
My daily is a 2023 VW Transporter, that I use to go to work, go to football in winter, Ikea runs etc etc. What's it's primary power source is, is completely inconsequential to me. Whether it's powered by electricity, diesel, petrol, uranium or unicorn tears, it doesn't matter. As long as it gets me where I want to go, I'm not fussed. If that was everything I wanted from a vehicle, then great, yeah, an electric car or van would fit the bill nicely. After all, there's no need for "soul" or thrills on the daily commute.
The thing is, when it comes to my car, I don't use it like that. It's purely for recreation and enjoyment, I run a 25 year old C43 because it reminds me of being a snot nosed kid, who used to dream of owning one. I only do 1200 or so miles a year in it, and quite like the wasted energy and heat (seriously, who thinks about that when they're driving any car?!) that creates the V8 vroom vroom noises. I like tinkering around renewing the spark plugs, replacing the belts and pulleys, changing the oil and maintaining it too. I don't care how fast it is or isn't, how much fuel it uses, how bad for environment it is, or how many pedals I can or can't use in traffic. There's no depreciation, the mileage I do means the running costs are moot, and it makes me feel good. So it that sense, no, for me, any electric car isn't "superior".
I know this is Pistonheads, where we should all be powerfully built company car drivers doing 30000 miles a year, and looking for the next tax break for our 6 or 7 figure salary...but...and I appreciate this is a crazy notion, not everyone is the same.
We all want and get different things from our cars and ownership experiences, what one person's "superior" is, is just boring to someone else.
My wife is a community nurse, and her next car will undoubtedly be an EV, because it makes sense. Hey, I may even borrow it from time to time! But whilst my car is purely for recreation and pleasure, it'll be a good while yet before I'm ready to kiss goodbye to my unburnt hydrocarbons.
That doesn't make me a "hater", I just prefer an engine.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
Why are EV drivers seemingly so desperate to try and convince people who don't like them, that they're wrong? It really does seem to trigger something quite sanctimonious in some people.
.
Does it really? There maybe one or two EV over enthusiasts but most have us either still have or have enjoyed som pretty full on ICEs.
I suggest you read the numerous EV related threads to see how vociferous and insulting many anti EV people are.
In the real world my 911 loving GF said get rid of:
In preference for:
cidered77 said:
Time will tell - and i take the chap above's point on the Taycan being a very good car. But EVs in the long term sustaining themselves as genuine objects of desire from a driving experience perspective? i still think it's tenuous...
.....
IMO the same is true of all but a tiny and dwindling number of new ICE cars too.....
cerb4.5lee said:
It's a great colour and but who'd have thought she'd eschew the 911 for a Taycan. When I suggested she may be getting a bit old it it not go down well!Seriously restricted rations for a whole day!!
I was never a 911 guy. Engine too far back and lots of technology saving owners from their lack of talent.
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
It's a great colour and but who'd have thought she'd eschew the 911 for a Taycan. When I suggested she may be getting a bit old it it not go down well!Seriously restricted rations for a whole day!!
I was never a 911 guy. Engine too far back and lots of technology saving owners from their lack of talent.
It does speak volumes for the Taycan that she prefers it to the 911 for certain.
cerb4.5lee said:
Yes and I'm always on the fence a bit with 911's too. But that one does look sweet though for sure I reckon.
It does speak volumes for the Taycan that she prefers it to the 911 for certain.
It does so much without drama or unnecessary aural enhancement. Yes it is truly lardy but FMG it is fast. It does speak volumes for the Taycan that she prefers it to the 911 for certain.
Dunbar871 said:
EVs are still fledgling (inferior) technology. No point rushing into inferior technology unless you are availing significant tax benefits.
Evangelists will spew their usual nonsense into the forums but anyone with any sense ignores such lunacy and buys ICE.
Hey some of us are top 1% . We don't care what you believe.Evangelists will spew their usual nonsense into the forums but anyone with any sense ignores such lunacy and buys ICE.
ChocolateFrog said:
ManyMotors said:
mrclav said:
Baldchap said:
Why do EV threads always get so ridiculous?
Because many on here cannot accept that the days of ICE are, whether they like it or not, numbered.In my mind, the highest end ICE cars will essentially go the way of the horse - owned and operated by only the rich. Everyone else will be traveling from A to B in some kind of BEV.
Can only imagine what a mid 2s car to 60 feels like. It must be vomit inducing for passengers.
cidered77 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
pheonix478 said:
cidered77 said:
...
But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I think that's fair to a point. IMO the Taycan is a brilliant car, I'll almost certainly replace mine with another but that's the thing I will replace it, whereas I've got ICE cars that are objectively worse in almost every way that I'll never sell. That said, it's unfair to liken a mass produced, fast family car, irrespective of drivetrain, to the very best ICE cars. How many people buy a big new M/RS/AMG and keep that forever? I don't think the lack of "emotional reaction or desire" is unique to EV's, I have the same reaction to most modern cars. Personally I think ICE cars generally peaked in the 90's with a few notable exceptions. Hopefully, EV's have yet to reach peak enjoyment.But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I was out in the Caterham earlier and I absolutely loved it. The noise, the gearchanges, the lightness etc, but I also love the F82 M4 in comparison as well. Yet it could be argued that I'd find the M4 boring after the Caterham really. I'm going out in the 370Z Roadster later too, seeing as the weather is nice at last!
Would I get the same pleasure from a performance electric car in comparison to those 3 ICE cars...who knows?
So much "character" is defined by powertrain, surely. And with an EV - no gears, noise if it exists at all, is all fake (ok, as it is on modern ICE cars, but to a much greater extent).... you're left with "how fast does it go in a straight line", and "how is the throttle and brake pedal mapping". There's room for differentiation in terms of how a car might handle - but, whether than creates anything that might be *properly desired*.... can't see it. and i mean real desire here, not just "this is a decent option for me as a daily on BIK". The kind of desirability that sees this worth more than it's price today in 30 year's time...
And for performance - it *did* used to matter, but i don't think it does so much now. So so much desirability in the past was defined by the stats, and performance - remember the shock of the first 400bhp super saloon (E39), or the reaction in the Daily Main to the Lotus Carlton? I still remember now being giddy as a kid seeing 201.3mph in Car magazine against the F40....but when horrible Volvo EX30 SUV at the cheaper end of the EV spectrum can accelerate quicker than that F40, then really - who cares ?
But we may just be old, and we're just programmed whether we're conscious of it or not to lust after the stuff that was cool when we were kids....
I remember all that too. I often get shot down for saying it, but I do genuinely believe that your age plays a massive part in how you feel about the whole ICE versus electric debacle I reckon.
If age didn't play a part in my case, then I'd be pulling up trees to buy an electric car for example I think. Electric cars are seen as cool nowadays for example, whereas when I was a kid, we'd have laughed our socks off at the idea of an electric car in comparison.
We all took the piss out of milk floats and the Sinclair C5 for example too back then!
cerb4.5lee said:
I think your last 2 paragraphs are spot on.
I remember all that too. I often get shot down for saying it, but I do genuinely believe that your age plays a massive part in how you feel about the whole ICE versus electric debacle I reckon.
If age didn't play a part in my case, then I'd be pulling up trees to buy an electric car for example I think. Electric cars are seen as cool nowadays for example, whereas when I was a kid, we'd have laughed our socks off at the idea of an electric car in comparison.
We all took the piss out of milk floats and the Sinclair C5 for example too back then!
I think it matters what you grew up with and that means that age matters indeed. It won't take long before a new generation will think the imperfections of ICE are old fashioned and for old people. Who wants those disadvantages right? Well, you and me I guess...cause we're getting old I remember all that too. I often get shot down for saying it, but I do genuinely believe that your age plays a massive part in how you feel about the whole ICE versus electric debacle I reckon.
If age didn't play a part in my case, then I'd be pulling up trees to buy an electric car for example I think. Electric cars are seen as cool nowadays for example, whereas when I was a kid, we'd have laughed our socks off at the idea of an electric car in comparison.
We all took the piss out of milk floats and the Sinclair C5 for example too back then!
cerb4.5lee said:
pheonix478 said:
cidered77 said:
...
But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I think that's fair to a point. IMO the Taycan is a brilliant car, I'll almost certainly replace mine with another but that's the thing I will replace it, whereas I've got ICE cars that are objectively worse in almost every way that I'll never sell. That said, it's unfair to liken a mass produced, fast family car, irrespective of drivetrain, to the very best ICE cars. How many people buy a big new M/RS/AMG and keep that forever? I don't think the lack of "emotional reaction or desire" is unique to EV's, I have the same reaction to most modern cars. Personally I think ICE cars generally peaked in the 90's with a few notable exceptions. Hopefully, EV's have yet to reach peak enjoyment.But I think i've seen enough and driven enough to tell me EV driving for pleasure just won't command the same emotional reaction or desire as with ICE cars. For me it won't and suspect for many others...
I was out in the Caterham earlier and I absolutely loved it. The noise, the gearchanges, the lightness etc, but I also love the F82 M4 in comparison as well. Yet it could be argued that I'd find the M4 boring after the Caterham really. I'm going out in the 370Z Roadster later too, seeing as the weather is nice at last!
Would I get the same pleasure from a performance electric car in comparison to those 3 ICE cars...who knows?
But when Caterham get their EV car to market I'm hoping that will be very good.
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