RE: Honda Civic Type R Mugen Driven
Discussion
sege said:
Come on! Braking during an off camber bend with a bump in the middle, and by the look of the photos in the wet too.....If the rear end doesn't get loose there it won't anywhere and shows the car must feature the same non-adjustable 'safe' boring handling of the standard car.
That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
Why do you want the rear end to get loose at all? If you want to drive like that then do it on a track and buy a car for that purpose. With the tyres and suspension on any of todays modern hot hatches if you're getting the back out you had better not do it in view of the plod because bang you up and throw away the key. That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
sege said:
Come on! Braking during an off camber bend with a bump in the middle, and by the look of the photos in the wet too.....If the rear end doesn't get loose there it won't anywhere and shows the car must feature the same non-adjustable 'safe' boring handling of the standard car.
That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
My point was that the Mugen prototype just stuck where, at exactly (or near as dammit) the same level of commitment, the FD2 Type R was rather more lairy. That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
Also, Mugen's engineers have deliberately made their tweaks for the FD2 i drove a more twitchy package - and it was brilliant fun, although i'd hardly call it neutral.
You're right, though, there's a definite question mark as to whether the 3-door Mugen Type R is too 'safe'. Course, it might just have an extremely high limit...
Riggers said:
sege said:
Come on! Braking during an off camber bend with a bump in the middle, and by the look of the photos in the wet too.....If the rear end doesn't get loose there it won't anywhere and shows the car must feature the same non-adjustable 'safe' boring handling of the standard car.
That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
My point was that the Mugen prototype just stuck where, at exactly (or near as dammit) the same level of commitment, the FD2 Type R was rather more lairy. That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
Also, Mugen's engineers have deliberately made their tweaks for the FD2 i drove a more twitchy package - and it was brilliant fun, although i'd hardly call it neutral.
You're right, though, there's a definite question mark as to whether the 3-door Mugen Type R is too 'safe'. Course, it might just have an extremely high limit...
Riggers said:
sege said:
Come on! Braking during an off camber bend with a bump in the middle, and by the look of the photos in the wet too.....If the rear end doesn't get loose there it won't anywhere and shows the car must feature the same non-adjustable 'safe' boring handling of the standard car.
That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
My point was that the Mugen prototype just stuck where, at exactly (or near as dammit) the same level of commitment, the FD2 Type R was rather more lairy. That the FD2's rear end slipped wide there shows it must remain the more neutral handling (i.e better) car in most other situations. Yet this point was taken as a plus point for the Mugen?!
This looks like a missed opportunity and a marketing exercise only
Also, Mugen's engineers have deliberately made their tweaks for the FD2 i drove a more twitchy package - and it was brilliant fun, although i'd hardly call it neutral.
You're right, though, there's a definite question mark as to whether the 3-door Mugen Type R is too 'safe'. Course, it might just have an extremely high limit...
The DC2 has (for 195-tyres) a remarkably limpet-like rear-end until you start properly pushing the car, at which point the rear end gets involved sufficiently to stop the car understeering and no more...pretty-much however hard you enter the corner. It's an amazing trick, and I haven't had the balls on-road to push it further still see what happens...
...and yet no-one has ever accused the DC2 of being 'leaden' - quite the opposite.
(On-track the car would eventually understeer in steady-state driving, but could be persuaded to oversteer by trail-braking...)
So I guess the questions are:-
- Did you feel the rear-end of the FN2 get involved at all, or was it front-led like the stock FN2?
- Did the FD2 actually break away on you (i.e. opp-lock), or just FEEL like it was going to break away from you. And was this just over the crest or at any other point?
- How standard was the FD2 that you drove in comparison? Was it the Mugen car, a standard car, or a "Mugen-owned" standard car?
At first read I think sege has a point - damp circuit plus mid-corner bump = most 'drivers cars' WILL have a bit of a moment. But not being there we need more information to judge...
SonicHedgeHog said:
Why do you want the rear end to get loose at all? If you want to drive like that then do it on a track and buy a car for that purpose. With the tyres and suspension on any of todays modern hot hatches if you're getting the back out you had better not do it in view of the plod because bang you up and throw away the key.
It's not about hanging the back end out like a would-be rally driver, it's about being able to adjust the cornering attitude with the throttle. A side-effect is that it is less forgiving to idiots. I think idiots should buy something else.Thanks for the clarification Riggers, 
Sorry my comment was not worded that well, but it sounds like most understood what I was on about.
I was wondering what the mods might have been to the FD2 you mentioned. Everything I've read about the Standard FD2 Type-R indicates it's very neutral, and more forgiving than the old DC2-R. It would be interesting to hear about a direct comparison between the Mugen and and a totally stock standard FD2 Type-R.
Loved the vid in the news too, it certainly looks and sounds good!
Sorry my comment was not worded that well, but it sounds like most understood what I was on about.
I was wondering what the mods might have been to the FD2 you mentioned. Everything I've read about the Standard FD2 Type-R indicates it's very neutral, and more forgiving than the old DC2-R. It would be interesting to hear about a direct comparison between the Mugen and and a totally stock standard FD2 Type-R.
Loved the vid in the news too, it certainly looks and sounds good!
Edited by sege on Tuesday 11th August 21:17
havoc said:
The DC2 has (for 195-tyres) a remarkably limpet-like rear-end until you start properly pushing the car, at which point the rear end gets involved sufficiently to stop the car understeering and no more...pretty-much however hard you enter the corner. It's an amazing trick, and I haven't had the balls on-road to push it further still see what happens...
...and yet no-one has ever accused the DC2 of being 'leaden' - quite the opposite.
(On-track the car would eventually understeer in steady-state driving, but could be persuaded to oversteer by trail-braking...)
The DC2 will do graceful LOO at the limit, on its OEM tyres, on track. You don't even need to trailbrake, just go in a touch hot, stay off the power a little longer than you think is wise and the back slides gracefully out, sharpening the line and giving great feedback throughout. The flipside of that is, stay on the power in a corner and the back stays firmly in place. As you say, quite an impressive feat. The diff is the key thing with the DC2, and most FWD cars that get rave reviews I might suggest?...and yet no-one has ever accused the DC2 of being 'leaden' - quite the opposite.
(On-track the car would eventually understeer in steady-state driving, but could be persuaded to oversteer by trail-braking...)
EvoBarry said:
The DC2 will do graceful LOO at the limit, on its OEM tyres, on track. You don't even need to trailbrake, just go in a touch hot, stay off the power a little longer than you think is wise and the back slides gracefully out, sharpening the line and giving great feedback throughout.
I noticed that when I drove Phil's at Bruntingthorpe - nice and mobile at the back in the corners ( although I was trying not to abuse his hospitality! )
dazsmith69 said:
Beefmeister said:
My £30k would go here:
http://www.litchfieldimports.co.uk/civic.asp
With £6k left over!!!
Oh, and Litchfields claim that these JDM Type-R rolling road at 235-240bhp...
mine would go herehttp://www.litchfieldimports.co.uk/civic.asp
- 2008 Civic Type-R Lux - £23,995 OTR
With £6k left over!!!
Oh, and Litchfields claim that these JDM Type-R rolling road at 235-240bhp...
Edited by Beefmeister on Tuesday 11th August 11:34
http://www.litchfieldimports.co.uk/stocklist.asp?i...
no brainer lol
havoc said:
A short on-track test-drive might not be the best place to actually tell.
The DC2 has (for 195-tyres) a remarkably limpet-like rear-end until you start properly pushing the car, at which point the rear end gets involved sufficiently to stop the car understeering and no more...pretty-much however hard you enter the corner. It's an amazing trick, and I haven't had the balls on-road to push it further still see what happens...
...and yet no-one has ever accused the DC2 of being 'leaden' - quite the opposite.
(On-track the car would eventually understeer in steady-state driving, but could be persuaded to oversteer by trail-braking...)
So I guess the questions are:-
- Did you feel the rear-end of the FN2 get involved at all, or was it front-led like the stock FN2?
- Did the FD2 actually break away on you (i.e. opp-lock), or just FEEL like it was going to break away from you. And was this just over the crest or at any other point?
- How standard was the FD2 that you drove in comparison? Was it the Mugen car, a standard car, or a "Mugen-owned" standard car?
At first read I think sege has a point - damp circuit plus mid-corner bump = most 'drivers cars' WILL have a bit of a moment. But not being there we need more information to judge...
You're right - a wet test track and 45 mins with both cars isn't enough to come to a definitive conclusion but, in steady-tate cornering, both cars understeer (naturally).The DC2 has (for 195-tyres) a remarkably limpet-like rear-end until you start properly pushing the car, at which point the rear end gets involved sufficiently to stop the car understeering and no more...pretty-much however hard you enter the corner. It's an amazing trick, and I haven't had the balls on-road to push it further still see what happens...
...and yet no-one has ever accused the DC2 of being 'leaden' - quite the opposite.
(On-track the car would eventually understeer in steady-state driving, but could be persuaded to oversteer by trail-braking...)
So I guess the questions are:-
- Did you feel the rear-end of the FN2 get involved at all, or was it front-led like the stock FN2?
- Did the FD2 actually break away on you (i.e. opp-lock), or just FEEL like it was going to break away from you. And was this just over the crest or at any other point?
- How standard was the FD2 that you drove in comparison? Was it the Mugen car, a standard car, or a "Mugen-owned" standard car?
At first read I think sege has a point - damp circuit plus mid-corner bump = most 'drivers cars' WILL have a bit of a moment. But not being there we need more information to judge...
However, the FD2 definitely broke away on me. It was a wee bit more than a 'dab of oppo' moment! Going into the 'first' corner on a trailing throttle the FD2's tail would also step wide, whereas the FN2 was just planted - and at a slightly higher speed.
In answer to the first question, I would say the Mugen FN2 has the same basic cornering stance as the stock car.
Finally, the FD2 was not a stock Type R. It had an aftermarket Mugen aero, brake and suspension package, but no mechanical upgrades.
If you like your cars really pointy, then the Mugen FN2 is probably a bit 'safe' for you, but I really wouldn't like to call that without a go in it in the dry on a track i know well. Hopefully someone form Mugen or Honda is reading this
.
Can't see what the complaints are about the car (apart from the price, if it really is over £25k).
For some 240hp won't be enough - for others they won't like FWD or a hatchback with no rear seats, but the more choice we have in the performance car market the better I'd say.
I think the plan is also to allow these modifications to be applied to current FN2 models. If that means you can have engine, brake and suspension updates for a reasonable price then it can't be a bad thing...
For some 240hp won't be enough - for others they won't like FWD or a hatchback with no rear seats, but the more choice we have in the performance car market the better I'd say.
I think the plan is also to allow these modifications to be applied to current FN2 models. If that means you can have engine, brake and suspension updates for a reasonable price then it can't be a bad thing...
EvoBarry said:
havoc said:
The DC2 has (for 195-tyres) a remarkably limpet-like rear-end until you start properly pushing the car, at which point the rear end gets involved sufficiently to stop the car understeering and no more...pretty-much however hard you enter the corner. It's an amazing trick, and I haven't had the balls on-road to push it further still see what happens...
...and yet no-one has ever accused the DC2 of being 'leaden' - quite the opposite.
(On-track the car would eventually understeer in steady-state driving, but could be persuaded to oversteer by trail-braking...)
The DC2 will do graceful LOO at the limit, on its OEM tyres, on track. You don't even need to trailbrake, just go in a touch hot, stay off the power a little longer than you think is wise and the back slides gracefully out, sharpening the line and giving great feedback throughout. The flipside of that is, stay on the power in a corner and the back stays firmly in place. As you say, quite an impressive feat. The diff is the key thing with the DC2, and most FWD cars that get rave reviews I might suggest?...and yet no-one has ever accused the DC2 of being 'leaden' - quite the opposite.
(On-track the car would eventually understeer in steady-state driving, but could be persuaded to oversteer by trail-braking...)
Sadly missed.
seechim said:
Nice idea. But when you have to tell people that you drive a Civic (albeit an ÜBER-fast track car), it's still a Civic. I had the same problem when I used to drive a Civic VTi-S.
sorry mate not bein funny but i have had many cars evos scoobies cossies type r's n loads of them at different powers but i have a soft spot for ctr's i think they drive nice feel very responsive and give a bigger smile than imprezas (evos obvi the daddy lol) i dont get people who dont like the thought tht their driving probably the most reliable car out their ,especially wen its cheap fast fun (obvi not talkin about a mugen by saying cheap lol) would like to know wat u mean lookin over the comments esp the max power ones i dont think they are trying for max power looks at all as they only appeal to people who cant have these types of cars in the first place ,i think car companies have alway try'd to have a mark on a car tht is wat the whale tail is to a cosworth to make people think with crazy purposful styling and gd power it just might meet leggendary stantus but sierras escorts n evo6s are the last of the brutes i think the mugens spoiler is wat it is a ... SPOILer it spoils the car honda should make the 4dr civic type r 4x4 or rwd tht would be 30k well spent ...anyone agree ??????????
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