RE: Driven: Westfield Sport Turbo
Discussion
Sam_68 said:
RobM77 said:
No-one can argue with the depreciation difference between them (Caterhams depreciate really slowly, if at all, and Westfields depreciate like any other car...
That's simply not true, Rob.The depreciation curves on Westfields and Caterhams really aren't all that different (in fact actual cash lost in depreciation can be lower on the Westy due to lower initial purchase price) and if you figure the depreciation cost per mile (which is the normal and sensible way of doing it) initial depreciation on either is horrendous - they'd both make buying a fully-specced Ssanyong Musso with lipstick pink paintwork and a beige velour interior look like a sound financial investment.
For example, if I'd bought this new, it would have cost me about £10K in depreciation before it got half way to the first service interval (about 3 months from date of purchase), if it was my 'any other car'. Put it another way - throwing my current daily driver away and buying a new one every other service would make more financial sense than buying a new, high-spec Caterham.
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 23 October 12:46
My Roadsport VVC was a typical Caterham - £21k new for its first owner, I paid £18k from Caterham themselves at 4k miles and 3 years old, and I sold it at 6 years old for £17k. Now worth about £15k.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 23 October 15:58
RobM77 said:
Sorry, that's total rubbish. You've picked a one off unpopular overpriced model to try and demonstrate a trend across the range. You could have done the same with the R500. 99% of the cars that leave the Caterham factory (Roadsports, R300s and R400s) depreciate very slowly indeed. My Roadsport VVC was a typical Caterham - £21k new for its first owner, I paid £18k from Caterham themselves at 4k miles and 3 years old, and I sold it at 6 years old for £17k. Now worth about £15k.
I paid £8000 for my current Westfield and you wouldn't part me from it without paying me at least that for it 3 years later (I got it for a VERY good price). Interstingly when I bought it it was 2 years old with about 4000 miles on the clock.For comparison my last one I had for 6 years, I paid about the same for it and sold it for about £6500 IIRC. Hardly horrendous depreciation if you're talking about buying 2nd hand cars.
juansolo said:
RobM77 said:
Sorry, that's total rubbish. You've picked a one off unpopular overpriced model to try and demonstrate a trend across the range. You could have done the same with the R500. 99% of the cars that leave the Caterham factory (Roadsports, R300s and R400s) depreciate very slowly indeed. My Roadsport VVC was a typical Caterham - £21k new for its first owner, I paid £18k from Caterham themselves at 4k miles and 3 years old, and I sold it at 6 years old for £17k. Now worth about £15k.
I paid £8000 for my current Westfield and you wouldn't part me from it without paying me at least that for it 3 years later (I got it for a VERY good price). Interstingly when I bought it it was 2 years old with about 4000 miles on the clock.For comparison my last one I had for 6 years, I paid about the same for it and sold it for about £6500 IIRC. Hardly horrendous depreciation if you're talking about buying 2nd hand cars.
RobM77 said:
juansolo said:
RobM77 said:
Sorry, that's total rubbish. You've picked a one off unpopular overpriced model to try and demonstrate a trend across the range. You could have done the same with the R500. 99% of the cars that leave the Caterham factory (Roadsports, R300s and R400s) depreciate very slowly indeed. My Roadsport VVC was a typical Caterham - £21k new for its first owner, I paid £18k from Caterham themselves at 4k miles and 3 years old, and I sold it at 6 years old for £17k. Now worth about £15k.
I paid £8000 for my current Westfield and you wouldn't part me from it without paying me at least that for it 3 years later (I got it for a VERY good price). Interstingly when I bought it it was 2 years old with about 4000 miles on the clock.For comparison my last one I had for 6 years, I paid about the same for it and sold it for about £6500 IIRC. Hardly horrendous depreciation if you're talking about buying 2nd hand cars.
Edited by juansolo on Friday 23 October 16:11
juansolo said:
RobM77 said:
juansolo said:
RobM77 said:
Sorry, that's total rubbish. You've picked a one off unpopular overpriced model to try and demonstrate a trend across the range. You could have done the same with the R500. 99% of the cars that leave the Caterham factory (Roadsports, R300s and R400s) depreciate very slowly indeed. My Roadsport VVC was a typical Caterham - £21k new for its first owner, I paid £18k from Caterham themselves at 4k miles and 3 years old, and I sold it at 6 years old for £17k. Now worth about £15k.
I paid £8000 for my current Westfield and you wouldn't part me from it without paying me at least that for it 3 years later (I got it for a VERY good price). Interstingly when I bought it it was 2 years old with about 4000 miles on the clock.For comparison my last one I had for 6 years, I paid about the same for it and sold it for about £6500 IIRC. Hardly horrendous depreciation if you're talking about buying 2nd hand cars.
Edited by juansolo on Friday 23 October 16:11
My point is that you can buy a Caterham for £20k (for example), and not lose more than £2k or £3k on it in the first few years, and probably never lose more than £5k in its entire life. In contrast, Westfields lose a lot more. You bought yours for £8k, which is presumably a lot less than it cost new?
It was a small point really, and I'd rather not argue about it. My original point was that for only £3k more than the car in the news item you can buy a Caterham that has a number of potential advantages, one of which is less depreciation. There are many others, but they're mostly qualitative and I don't want to open a can of worms!
Although it seems like I have with what should be just basic maths 
RobM77 said:
juansolo said:
RobM77 said:
juansolo said:
RobM77 said:
Sorry, that's total rubbish. You've picked a one off unpopular overpriced model to try and demonstrate a trend across the range. You could have done the same with the R500. 99% of the cars that leave the Caterham factory (Roadsports, R300s and R400s) depreciate very slowly indeed. My Roadsport VVC was a typical Caterham - £21k new for its first owner, I paid £18k from Caterham themselves at 4k miles and 3 years old, and I sold it at 6 years old for £17k. Now worth about £15k.
I paid £8000 for my current Westfield and you wouldn't part me from it without paying me at least that for it 3 years later (I got it for a VERY good price). Interstingly when I bought it it was 2 years old with about 4000 miles on the clock.For comparison my last one I had for 6 years, I paid about the same for it and sold it for about £6500 IIRC. Hardly horrendous depreciation if you're talking about buying 2nd hand cars.
Edited by juansolo on Friday 23 October 16:11
My point is that you can buy a Caterham for £20k (for example), and not lose more than £2k or £3k on it in the first few years, and probably never lose more than £5k in its entire life. In contrast, Westfields lose a lot more. You bought yours for £8k, which is presumably a lot less than it cost new?
It was a small point really, and I'd rather not argue about it. My original point was that for only £3k more than the car in the news item you can buy a Caterham that has a number of potential advantages, one of which is less depreciation. There are many others, but they're mostly qualitative and I don't want to open a can of worms!
Although it seems like I have with what should be just basic maths Though I would also say that they are both vastly overpriced if you buy them assembled at by the manufacturer and buying 2nd hand or building your own really is the only sensible option.
Edited by juansolo on Friday 23 October 16:37
...so rob- juansolo's was not factory build. hence the cheaperness. the pair of you are comparing apples and pears.
to be fair my view seems to be that westies aren;t much different to caterhams in either absolute or % depreciation. although westfields do seem a bit worse once they are older. also, i guess there is an element of caterhams being predominantly factory build which removes some sort of 'risk' for normal car buyers...
to be fair my view seems to be that westies aren;t much different to caterhams in either absolute or % depreciation. although westfields do seem a bit worse once they are older. also, i guess there is an element of caterhams being predominantly factory build which removes some sort of 'risk' for normal car buyers...
RobM77 said:
My point is that you can buy a Caterham for £20k (for example), and not lose more than £2k or £3k on it in the first few years...
And my point is that you're deluding yourself by measuring the depreciation in years rather than in mileage. Look at the example you youself gave - first owner of your car paid £21K and you paid £18K to Caterham at 4K miles. Lets be generous and disregard the fact that if you paid Caterham £18K, then chances are that Caterham paid the original owner something more like £15K... even using the Caterham retail price, the car lost £3000 in 4K miles.
If my daily driver (now nearly 3 years old, so the same age as your Caterham when you bought it) had depreciated at that rate per mile, a quick calculation suggests that I'd have to pay someone £37,000 to take it off my hands.
Sure, if you leave it in the garage for 15 years with negligible mileage the value will seem to have held up pretty well compared to what you bought it for. It's not until you factor in inflation and the compound interest you'd have made on the £5K (or whatever) difference in price between the Caterham and the Westfield that it suddenly starts to look a bit sad as an investment.
I'm sorry, but the whole 'low depreciation' thing is just an excuse people use to themselves to justify their purchase. It doesn't stack up at all if subjected to any sort of rational financial analysis.
Having been involved in the running of the Westfield Aerorace development car I can firmly say that in many ways the Westfield is a more developed car than the original 7 (perhaps not the CSR).
The fit of the panels and the way the rear cycle wings flusk properly into the side panels, the IRS, the detailing around the long chassis etc are all very nice details and show a clear pattern of thought in the cars production which would make it far more acceptable in many ways to a standard road car driver. I believe that the new range of cars from Westfield show a big progression over the old cars and whilst perhaps not everything is as I would do it - I prefer the centre DL1 logging system they use rather than the central Corsa dials. The car does weight more than a Caterham, but elements like the GRP side panels do add a reasonable amount to the weight, and also take away some of the 'flimsyness and cheapness' you feel with the 7's aluminium side panels. Its always going to be difficult for Westfield as they have to 'compete' with Caterham and the very strong brand that Caterham have in this sector of the market means they will always be looked at as the stronger of the pair.
The fit of the panels and the way the rear cycle wings flusk properly into the side panels, the IRS, the detailing around the long chassis etc are all very nice details and show a clear pattern of thought in the cars production which would make it far more acceptable in many ways to a standard road car driver. I believe that the new range of cars from Westfield show a big progression over the old cars and whilst perhaps not everything is as I would do it - I prefer the centre DL1 logging system they use rather than the central Corsa dials. The car does weight more than a Caterham, but elements like the GRP side panels do add a reasonable amount to the weight, and also take away some of the 'flimsyness and cheapness' you feel with the 7's aluminium side panels. Its always going to be difficult for Westfield as they have to 'compete' with Caterham and the very strong brand that Caterham have in this sector of the market means they will always be looked at as the stronger of the pair.
When someone kindly damaged my Lotus 7's rear wing/mudguard, I was very grateful that they were detachable, and easily and cheaply replaced.
One person's idea of advancement may be another's pain in the arse.
I was also under the impression that the moulded-in rear wings on the Westfield had more to do with the litigation issues.
Surely a lot of the original appeal of the original '7' concept was its simplicity, lightness and ease of maintenance.
By all means 'improve' and 'move forward' to use the current irritating cliche,
but perhaps drop the '7' name when such clones have moved TOO far away from the spirit of the original.
One person's idea of advancement may be another's pain in the arse.
I was also under the impression that the moulded-in rear wings on the Westfield had more to do with the litigation issues.
Surely a lot of the original appeal of the original '7' concept was its simplicity, lightness and ease of maintenance.
By all means 'improve' and 'move forward' to use the current irritating cliche,
but perhaps drop the '7' name when such clones have moved TOO far away from the spirit of the original.
Graham, I agree with you regarding the '7' name - the Westfield is a car in its own right and its not a '7' but it will no doubt always been known as such by the very strong brand that both Lotus and Caterham and established over time for this format of cars.
No doubt as a former Lotus 7 owner you are an advocate of the brand and anything else will always been seen as a 'replica' but I believe to thing should be seen as two different products. I'm a huge Caterham fan but can also appreciate the way that Westfield have moved away from their original car and the two things have evolved in a slightly different way - it doesn't mean either is wrong.
No doubt as a former Lotus 7 owner you are an advocate of the brand and anything else will always been seen as a 'replica' but I believe to thing should be seen as two different products. I'm a huge Caterham fan but can also appreciate the way that Westfield have moved away from their original car and the two things have evolved in a slightly different way - it doesn't mean either is wrong.
grahamw48 said:
When someone kindly damaged my Lotus 7's rear wing/mudguard, I was very grateful that they were detachable, and easily and cheaply replaced.
Detachable rear arches are available as an option on the Westfield, if you crash a lot. grahamw48 said:
I was also under the impression that the moulded-in rear wings on the Westfield had more to do with the litigation issues.
No, the later pre-litigation Westfields used a single-piece moulding for the back end, too. The change was made for cost and ease-of-build reasons, iirc.Don't get me wrong... I love both Caterhams and Westfields.
It's only because I'm so old that I had the privilege of owning the 'real thing'.....oh, and some hit and run t
t damaged the (S3) Seven in a pub car park....not self-inflicted.
I'd already done a proper job on my S4 though.
However, even our top racing drivers have the occasional 'off'.
It's only because I'm so old that I had the privilege of owning the 'real thing'.
....oh, and some hit and run tt damaged the (S3) Seven in a pub car park....not self-inflicted.I'd already done a proper job on my S4 though.
However, even our top racing drivers have the occasional 'off'.
neilrallying said:
Westfield have potentially been very forward thinking with this car - good long term supply of Euro compliant engines with lots of tuning potential - European testing done and finished - even if the car is not as dynamically polished as some of the competition the fact that they can now sell it unrestricted over the 27 EU member states as a turn key car will do them an awful lot of favours.
Neil.
Neil as ever you got it one mate! and maybe the new thinking of westfield has come from your very own company, and cars, by the use of 'off the shelf' engines rather than tuned N/A units....Neil.
As this is a kit car im sure the suspension can be altered to be however you want it. and with a little engine work im sure that little 1.6 turbo can make the car fly. Dont tghe VXR engine come with around 200bhp out the box??
Chris.
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