RE: Driven: BMW M3 GTS

[Mermaid]

Nick_Johnson said:

The car will be purchased by BMW fanatics and these people wont give a toss whether spending there money on a 911 would have a more sensible choice as it would have never been an option.

If they had made 1000 of these, it would have been very difficult to find the right number of fanatics. But at 150, they are safe.

How many will get put away in a museum?

[Slippydiff]

RobM77 said:

Slippydiff said:

8400rpm said:

Way to ruin a brilliant driving experience by only having stupid flappy paddle as an option.

Completely ruined the CSL experience for me. A real drivers car needs a manual.

A good point and well made. Last weekend I heard a Mr S Loeb and a Mr M Webber constantly bemoaning the fact that their cars weren't real drivers cars as they didn't have manual gearboxes . . .


We're in 2010, not 1910 Would you like drum brakes, recirculating ball steering and leaf springs on your "real drivers car" too ?


The CSLs 'box is excellent btw;)

I think an F1 box (or F3, FR etc) is a bit different to a road car's flappy paddle change... An F1 gearbox changes gear reallyquickly because it's a straight cut box designed to last a few hundred miles. A road car box is a synchro box designed to last 100,000 to 200,000 miles, and as such gives nowhere near the driving experience of an F1 box. The two are chalk and cheese.

The other thing worth mentioning is that in a single seater flappy paddles are getting essential these days because of how quickly they decelerate. Road cars make nowhere near the same demands on gearchanges, and as such are fine with a manual box, which many drivers continue to prefer because it gives them more control.

Like you, I like to see advancement in technology, but only if it doesn't detract from the driving experience (the speed issue) and it's necessary (the deceleration issue).

The CSLs 'box is old and crude when compared to the latest DCT/DSG technology, and because of that it requires some time to learn (and patience to use smoothly) Once mastered it's a great system that reduces the drivers workload.
I'd cite my drive up and down the Turini a couple of years ago as one of my favorite moments behind the wheel of a car (and to my mind the SMG 'box only added to the experience)

I've an automatic car, a manual car and the CSL. Given the chance to install the CSLs gearbox on the manual car I'd jump at it. . . . .

I'm not sure I agree with your comments on control, the CSL's box is adaptive, used in anger it'll execute multiple downchanges as quick as any roadgoing/user friendly manual 'box. And whilst it may not be as quick, smooth or sophisticated on an upchange as the latest DCT 'boxes, it'll shift up as quickly as any roadgoing/user friendly manual 'box that I've ever used !

[teamHOLDENracing]

The DCT box is a joy to use in a 135i and I have little doubt it is even better in the M3. In 'Sport' mode up shifts are full throttle and almost instant. Downshifts have an auto throttle blip. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

[Guvernator]

It's sold in low quantities so it will sell out, however I think if they had decided to make many more, they would have struggled. I'm just disappointed as we all know the M division can produce amazing cars if it tries. I just don't think this is good enough for them although their recent track record hasn't been great (XM5 and XM6 )

Let's hope the new M1 or whatever it's going to be called is better.

[kambites]

teamHOLDENracing said:

The DCT box is a joy to use in a 135i and I have little doubt it is even better in the M3. In 'Sport' mode up shifts are full throttle and almost instant. Downshifts have an auto throttle blip. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

I don't think anyone is saying that DCT boxes are bad. Just that they don't like them, personally.

[RatBoy M3CSL]

100kg too heavy, £50K too much money... and it should be black and white.. apart from that lovely..!

[cuda]

8400rpm said:

Way to ruin a brilliant driving experience by only having stupid flappy paddle as an option.

Completely ruined the CSL experience for me. A real drivers car needs a manual.

you clearly never drove it on a track then did ya?!

[RobM77]

Slippydiff said:

RobM77 said:

Slippydiff said:

8400rpm said:

Way to ruin a brilliant driving experience by only having stupid flappy paddle as an option.

Completely ruined the CSL experience for me. A real drivers car needs a manual.

A good point and well made. Last weekend I heard a Mr S Loeb and a Mr M Webber constantly bemoaning the fact that their cars weren't real drivers cars as they didn't have manual gearboxes . . .


We're in 2010, not 1910 Would you like drum brakes, recirculating ball steering and leaf springs on your "real drivers car" too ?


The CSLs 'box is excellent btw;)

I think an F1 box (or F3, FR etc) is a bit different to a road car's flappy paddle change... An F1 gearbox changes gear reallyquickly because it's a straight cut box designed to last a few hundred miles. A road car box is a synchro box designed to last 100,000 to 200,000 miles, and as such gives nowhere near the driving experience of an F1 box. The two are chalk and cheese.

The other thing worth mentioning is that in a single seater flappy paddles are getting essential these days because of how quickly they decelerate. Road cars make nowhere near the same demands on gearchanges, and as such are fine with a manual box, which many drivers continue to prefer because it gives them more control.

Like you, I like to see advancement in technology, but only if it doesn't detract from the driving experience (the speed issue) and it's necessary (the deceleration issue).

The CSLs 'box is old and crude when compared to the latest DCT/DSG technology, and because of that it requires some time to learn (and patience to use smoothly) Once mastered it's a great system that reduces the drivers workload.
I'd cite my drive up and down the Turini a couple of years ago as one of my favorite moments behind the wheel of a car (and to my mind the SMG 'box only added to the experience)

I've an automatic car, a manual car and the CSL. Given the chance to install the CSLs gearbox on the manual car I'd jump at it. . . . .

I'm not sure I agree with your comments on control, the CSL's box is adaptive, used in anger it'll execute multiple downchanges as quick as any roadgoing/user friendly manual 'box. And whilst it may not be as quick, smooth or sophisticated on an upchange as the latest DCT 'boxes, it'll shift up as quickly as any roadgoing/user friendly manual 'box that I've ever used !

I was merely commenting on the comparison with an F1 box, rather than giving any particular opinion on flappy paddles on road cars.

[E21_Ross]

RichyBoy said:

I wish they based it on the one series with a manual gearbox.

agreed

[ollysmith]

Ghastly ghastly car. Not particularly good looking anyway and now just disgusting in orange. And when did they decide that the normal one is not fast enough?

[XJR500bhp]

Surely the price doesn't matter if we only get ten of them, surely nothign matters, you will probaly never see one!

[RobM77]

E21_Ross said:

RichyBoy said:

I wish they based it on the one series with a manual gearbox.

agreed

That may come in the future! :-)

[DMC2]

sootyrumble said:

Guvernator said:

I'm not sure about this car. I'm usually a fan of M division offerings but I'm not sure who this car is aimed at. The M3 this is based on is a very decent GT car with decent handling, a good engine plus all the toys and luxuries you could need but a little bit on the heavy side for serious fun or track work but that's OK because the E46 was the same and then they released the CSL for people who wanted something a bit more hardcore.

It was more powerful, over 100kg lighter, better handling and sounded the mutts nuts at full chat but still retained decent levels of every day useability with 4 seats so that it could be used to go to Tesco's one day and then be harrying GT3's on track the next. In effect it could nearly be all things to all men and it was an example of the M sport division at the top of it's game IMO. Due to this, expectations where set very high at the prospect of a new CSL replacement. BMW would be mad not to wouldn't they?

However what does the GTS do? It's up on power but it's not significantly lighter. 70Kgs isn't that huge a reduction, especially considering that they've ripped out the plush rear seats. At over 1500kg's it's too lardy to be a dedicated track car and too comprimised to be used daily plus let's not forget the price. At over £100k it's £25k more than a GT3 and nearly the same price as a GT3 RS. I just don't get this one at all. I think I'll give this one a must try harder.

(PS Hello all. Been lurking for a while but decided to jump in with my first post)

You say 25k more than a GT3 but lets be honest by the time the GT3 brakes are uprated, the seats etc they will be around the same cost, also the GT3 is only 50kg lighter than the GTS but is a smaller car it is fractionally quicker circa .3 seconds on a 0-62 sprint and similar top speeds however in gear times appear to be much closer as the rear engined Porsche's allways perform well on a sprint due to traction, however i would love to see the track time comparisons as i have a feeling this GTS like the previous CSL will have very good handling.
I think this is effectively a GT3 alternative in every way both great cars in my opinion of someone who has never driven eithor :-D

Nonsense. £90k gets you a GT3 with buckets and brakes which do not need changed. So £26.5k cheaper.

[FWDRacer]

If you are going to make a track focused car - why would you start with an overweight coupe based off an iteration of what is essentially a saloon car floorpan? OK, so its RWD - Pass me the kleenex.

This car makes sense to someone. And at 116K? - - even at 60K - Not me I'm afraid.

[RobM77]

FWDRacer said:

If you are going to make a track focused car - why would you start with an overweight coupe based off an iteration of what is essentially a saloon car floorpan? OK, so its RWD - Pass me the kleenex.

This car makes sense to someone. And at 116K? - - even at 60K - Not me I'm afraid.

Fair point, but bear in mind that your comment also applies to plenty of legendary cars:

Lancia Delta Integrale - based on the Delta, which was just a humble shopping car.
Peugeot 205 GTi - based on the 205, which was designed as cheap economical transport
VW Golf GTi
Renault Clio Williams/172/182/200 etc
etc

I agree though, it's always better to start with a clean sheet of paper to build a sports car, like the Elise was for example. You can go a long way with modifying cars though - just look at the F40 compared to the 308 (F40 based on 288GTO Evo, based on 288 GTO, based on 308..).

Your point about the cost is very salient though. The whole point of modifying a saloon to be a track tool instead of starting with a clean sheet of paper is that it should be cheaper than designing a track tool from the ground up. This has failed here though, because you can buy an equally well built and reliable 997 GT3 for less money than this M3 GTS. That's because the M3 is a very limited run of course, and BMW would rather concentrate on building X5s for fat businessmen, but it's still a relevant point, and if I was in the market for a big track tool like the M3 GTS I'd just get a brand new 997 GT3 and pocket the change.

[Mermaid]

RobM77 said:

FWDRacer said:

If you are going to make a track focused car - why would you start with an overweight coupe based off an iteration of what is essentially a saloon car floorpan? OK, so its RWD - Pass me the kleenex.

This car makes sense to someone. And at 116K? - - even at 60K - Not me I'm afraid.

Fair point, but bear in mind that your comment also applies to plenty of legendary cars:

Lancia Delta Integrale - based on the Delta, which was just a humble shopping car.
Peugeot 205 GTi - based on the 205, which was designed as cheap economical transport
VW Golf GTi
Renault Clio Williams/172/182/200 etc
etc

I agree though, it's always better to start with a clean sheet of paper to build a sports car, like the Elise was for example. You can go a long way with modifying cars though - just look at the F40 compared to the 308 (F40 based on 288GTO Evo, based on 288 GTO, based on 308..).

Your point about the cost is very salient though. The whole point of modifying a saloon to be a track tool instead of starting with a clean sheet of paper is that it should be cheaper than designing a track tool from the ground up. This has failed here though, because you can buy an equally well built and reliable 997 GT3 for less money than this M3 GTS. That's because the M3 is a very limited run of course, and BMW would rather concentrate on building X5s for fat businessmen, but it's still a relevant point, and if I was in the market for a big track tool like the M3 GTS I'd just get a brand new 997 GT3 and pocket the change.

Also a race/track car has to look good, and this one simply does not.

[RenesisEvo]

It seems a little too late to be a homologation special for the M3 GTR that's been doing the rounds, but who knows maybe nexy year's will borrow from it, though to me the production run seems a little low. It's not unlike BMW to do this (320si), and they are rumoured to be heading back towards the DTM. A road car with adjustable suspension, apron, wings, etc would make a rather handy starting point (remember the 80's homologation specials for the DTM that we all were reminded about on Top Gear a little while back?)

[RobM77]

Mermaid said:

RobM77 said:

FWDRacer said:

If you are going to make a track focused car - why would you start with an overweight coupe based off an iteration of what is essentially a saloon car floorpan? OK, so its RWD - Pass me the kleenex.

This car makes sense to someone. And at 116K? - - even at 60K - Not me I'm afraid.

Fair point, but bear in mind that your comment also applies to plenty of legendary cars:

Lancia Delta Integrale - based on the Delta, which was just a humble shopping car.
Peugeot 205 GTi - based on the 205, which was designed as cheap economical transport
VW Golf GTi
Renault Clio Williams/172/182/200 etc
etc

I agree though, it's always better to start with a clean sheet of paper to build a sports car, like the Elise was for example. You can go a long way with modifying cars though - just look at the F40 compared to the 308 (F40 based on 288GTO Evo, based on 288 GTO, based on 308..).

Your point about the cost is very salient though. The whole point of modifying a saloon to be a track tool instead of starting with a clean sheet of paper is that it should be cheaper than designing a track tool from the ground up. This has failed here though, because you can buy an equally well built and reliable 997 GT3 for less money than this M3 GTS. That's because the M3 is a very limited run of course, and BMW would rather concentrate on building X5s for fat businessmen, but it's still a relevant point, and if I was in the market for a big track tool like the M3 GTS I'd just get a brand new 997 GT3 and pocket the change.

Also a race/track car has to look good, and this one simply does not.

To be honest it seems to me that a few people at BMW still want to produce track capable cars like the E30 M3 was (note back in the day it was just the M3 that was the track focused car, not the "Competition" or the CSL or the GTS model...), but the majority of the company are more interested in building bloated overweight cars for fat businessmen. The M3 GTS seems to me to be a good honest attempt by the people that like track cars to do their best with what the rest of the company have created for fat businessmen, with the price set by BMW's marketing staff. The fact that the £100k+ M3 GTS track special weighs a chunk more than a fully kitted out £50k Cayman S is rather telling!

[MDahmen]

stating the obvious here, but it is front engined / rear wheel drive - some people might prefer that to a 911
I would not buy one - especially at that price - but I'm sure it'll be a lovely car to drive. Selling 150 of them as a halo model to show the M division does still produce drivers cars is something I applaud.
Quite surprised it is not lighter though, guess the new M3 is just bloody heavy to start with

[RobM77]

MDahmen said:

stating the obvious here, but it is front engined / rear wheel drive - some people might prefer that to a 911

Very true, although that's just a criticism of a hole in the market to be honest, rather than a reason for the M3 existing at that price.