RE: Driven: BMW M3 GTS
Discussion
Asterix said:
leon9191 said:
People bleating on about 70Kg not being very much should try putting 3 paving slabs in the boot of their car and see what difference it makes.
Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
How much difference does it make with a passenger? Average bloke must be around 70-80kg?Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
collateral said:
8400rpm said:
I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."
8400rpm said:
Whoop-de-st! That would have made it feel even more like a PlayStation game. If I crash a car like this in real life, can I pause it and restart the race?
My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal and a gear lever to use. I don't care whether it's 2010 and not 1910. I like a car that has a throttle cable directly connected to a butterfly, and a MANUAL gearbox.
It is once again something to make people say "'ere, look I've got a set of flappy paddles like that Lewis Hamilton, changes gear in 0.00002101 milliseconds! Makes me lap Croft 1.340000008seconds faster than a manual!"
I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."
I don't care! I like heel and toe, I like choosing the gear I want, when I want to, for how long, and being involved in the drive. If people like you can't see that, well I may aswell be banging my head against a brick wall. Suppose it'll save the older drivers cars for people that will appreciate them.
Been hanging around for months and joined to completely support this post. I am sick to death of flappy paddle gearboxes. I love manuals, and will never, ever buy some ridiculous 'F1 technology'. Gearchanges are an extremely important part of the driving experience- it can make or break a car's personality. The 206 GTi I used to drive was quite fun, except for the utterly awful gearchange. The Civic Type S I drive currently has perhaps one of the nicest gearchanges I've ever used, and as a result it makes the car so much more enjoyable to drive.My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal and a gear lever to use. I don't care whether it's 2010 and not 1910. I like a car that has a throttle cable directly connected to a butterfly, and a MANUAL gearbox.
It is once again something to make people say "'ere, look I've got a set of flappy paddles like that Lewis Hamilton, changes gear in 0.00002101 milliseconds! Makes me lap Croft 1.340000008seconds faster than a manual!"
I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."
I don't care! I like heel and toe, I like choosing the gear I want, when I want to, for how long, and being involved in the drive. If people like you can't see that, well I may aswell be banging my head against a brick wall. Suppose it'll save the older drivers cars for people that will appreciate them.
Flicking through a lovely, fluid manual shift will always be much better to me than prodding a paddle.
drumm23 said:
8400rpm said:
My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal
I was anti the flappy paddles too until I spent a day driving Audi's new RS5 with their dual-clutch system and it is absolutely tremendous. Far superior to the older "electronic manual" type systems (i.e SMG, R-Tronic etc.) for any sort of track work or even high-speed driving it was clear to me that dual-clutch is the future. You can start getting your left leg used to BRAKING now!Edited by drumm23 on Friday 16th July 19:17
I define "Driving" to be different from "Operating a vehicle", personally. Dual-clutch flappy paddle gearboxes are very impressive in my experience, but I like changing gear for the experience. DCT-type boxes are faster (especially on a track) but they give the driver less to do and require no skill whatsoever.
If we made brakes and steering this automated I'd never go on a racetrack again. I don't see the gearbox as being any different - just that the line in the sand is earlier. I voted with my feet on this, since my TT was one of the early cars with a good dual-clutch option. I tried it, and found it impressive but boring, so ended up getting a manual.
C
Guvernator said:
The thing I am still having difficulty getting my head around is the weight. If the likes of Ferrari or Lamborghini can manage to lop off 100kg from cars which are already pretty light to begin with for their track special like the Scuderia etc, why can't BMW?
The normal M3 is a pretty lardy car to start with, with all it's luxuries and toys. Surely it should be possible to lop a huge amount off this weight without even trying. I understand putting a roll cage in might add some weight back but only 70Kgs despite loosing the back seats just makes it seem like they really aren't trying hard enough. If they'd manage to drop the weight to around 1350kgs and improve the power to weight massively, I could almost understand the huge price hike.
Its where the weight is or isnt thats important though,lopping loads of weight off doesnt always work.The normal M3 is a pretty lardy car to start with, with all it's luxuries and toys. Surely it should be possible to lop a huge amount off this weight without even trying. I understand putting a roll cage in might add some weight back but only 70Kgs despite loosing the back seats just makes it seem like they really aren't trying hard enough. If they'd manage to drop the weight to around 1350kgs and improve the power to weight massively, I could almost understand the huge price hike.
The reason the M3 is so damn good despite being quite heavy is because all the weight is pretty much central,coupled to low unsprung weight and a pretty much perfect balance-not to mention the incredibly stiff shell all consitutes to a great precise drive.
Why do you think M cars in general are so renowned for handling despite being heavier than conventional sports cars?
The concrete in the boot isnt a very good way of measuring the effects of weight since you have shfted the balance of the car.If you layed them on the driver and passengers lap's it would be hard to tell any difference.
Wouldnt advise that tough!
Asterix said:
leon9191 said:
People bleating on about 70Kg not being very much should try putting 3 paving slabs in the boot of their car and see what difference it makes.
Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
How much difference does it make with a passenger? Average bloke must be around 70-80kg?Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
CarbonM5 said:
Its where the weight is or isnt thats important though,lopping loads of weight off doesnt always work.
You could just about tell the difference in my Caterham on the road with a full vs empty tank, but take the spare wheel on and off the back and it made a massive difference. The reason was the location of the weight. Very noticeable.I think its absolutely wonderful even if it is only 70kgs lighter.
Its not just about the weight though is it. The e46 CSL isn't an awful lot lighter than the standard E46 M3 but the other tweeks make it an incredible car to experience on track by comparison. Having had the good fortune to passanger about 20 laps in a CSL around the ring I think the difference is immense.
I love a manual box but there is absolutely no denying that the SMG makes a massive difference on track. The fact that you can really focus on getting round as quickly as possible without having to take any hands of the steering wheel is a huge bonus. Modern dual clutch systems are far better than SMG now as we all know and if I wanted a car like this I would happily take one with flappy paddles. Its not about the Sunday drive in a car like this, its about being able to go that much faster than the standard road car around a track imo.
I would still take an GT3 RS instead but this would be a very close second and more elite.
Its not just about the weight though is it. The e46 CSL isn't an awful lot lighter than the standard E46 M3 but the other tweeks make it an incredible car to experience on track by comparison. Having had the good fortune to passanger about 20 laps in a CSL around the ring I think the difference is immense.
I love a manual box but there is absolutely no denying that the SMG makes a massive difference on track. The fact that you can really focus on getting round as quickly as possible without having to take any hands of the steering wheel is a huge bonus. Modern dual clutch systems are far better than SMG now as we all know and if I wanted a car like this I would happily take one with flappy paddles. Its not about the Sunday drive in a car like this, its about being able to go that much faster than the standard road car around a track imo.
I would still take an GT3 RS instead but this would be a very close second and more elite.
jackal said:
BM should stick to making lifestyle 4x4's IMO, they do that very well
i thought BM were the best in the business at super saloons. the M3's and M5's have always been the class leaders upon release and are the standard all fast saloons are compared to. EVO and top gear both say the current M3 is the better car out of its rivals to drive, and the M5 is (just about) the most fun out of it's competitors, though the XF-R is about equal, but it's a good 5 years younger and really, is a competitor for the M5 coming out next year.not 4x4's
sc4589 said:
I am sick to death of flappy paddle gearboxes. I love manuals, and will never, ever buy some ridiculous 'F1 technology'. Gearchanges are an extremely important part of the driving experience- it can make or break a car's personality. The 206 GTi I used to drive was quite fun, except for the utterly awful gearchange. The Civic Type S I drive currently has perhaps one of the nicest gearchanges I've ever used, and as a result it makes the car so much more enjoyable to drive.
Flicking through a lovely, fluid manual shift will always be much better to me than prodding a paddle.
Have you actually driven a car with a decent dual clutch transmission, as opposed to a conventional auto box with paddles on the steering wheel? Flicking through a lovely, fluid manual shift will always be much better to me than prodding a paddle.
chimpanzee said:
So to recap, it's not as fast as a GT3, it costs more than a GT3, is not as good to drive as a GT3, it can't be driven on the road like a GT3, it offers less technology than a GT3, it's heavier than a GT3.
And it's orange.
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Different rather than better or worse, and it's the whole package that one has to consider. BMW's do make excellent track cars. On pure numbers, the Sierra Cosworth was better than the E30 M3, as was the 996GT3 to the E46 CSL.And it's orange.
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