The Most Fun Cars To Drive ?

[RobM77]

busta said:

RobM77 said:

I would say that committing to a blind corner entry at a lowly 30mph in a 106 GTi is far more dangerous than balancing an M3 on the limit from apex to exit at 45mph out of the same corner - purely because a hazard one hasn't seen is far more likely to cause an accident than losing control of a car driven at the limit in aroad you've already observed to be clear, at least for me anyway.

Sorry but run that by me again. Driving around a blind corner at 30mph is more dangerous than 45mph around a corner that you have observed is clear? Well, yes. Why would he M3 have better visibility than any other car though?

Are you suggesting an M3 can take a corner at 45mph that a 106 could only take at 30mph? I have no doubt an M3 can corner faster, but not 50% faster! I've been on enough track days to know that much.

And what has any of this got to do with fun?

Sorry, clarity was the victim of brevity there. This comment was part of a side discussion as to whether a low grip FWD car with skinny tyres could be more fun than a high grip over-tyred RWD car. I'll explain:

Firstly, I'll explain the low grip and high grip: the speeds are irrelevant; all that matters for this comparison is that the M3 corners quicker than the hot hatch. 45 and 30 were chosen to make the example clear - the actual speeds are of no consequence at all.

Secondly, RWD and FWD. My point was that to achieve balance and satisfaction in a FWD car, you need to commit to the entry to a corner. This is because in the equation of understeer vs oversteer or front vs rear grip, which you are trying to balance whilst cornering in any car at any speed, FWD sees the equation unbalanced. The reason for that lack of balance is because the steering and power are both going to the front wheels and in a FWD car most of the weight is over the front of the car. The only way round this if one is to maintain grip and poise by staying on the throttle in a corner, is to use weight transfer on turn-in (which in extremis is lift off oversteer, but I'm not talking about that, just using subtle weight transfer to balance the car). To enter a corner balanced in this way in a FWD car requires turn-in commitment, which is quite dangerous on a public road because most bends are unsighted. I was arguing that turning in to a corner on a public road with such commitment, no matter what the speed, is invariably always more dangerous than a typical cautious turn-in in a rear wheel drive car which can be more easily balanced in the latter stages of the corner, mainly because a RWD car will tend to have more inherent balance to start with. So normally you're left with two choices on the road with FWD - drive out of balance in safety and in accordance with prudent advanced driving techniques, or drive in balance, but with complete disregard to safety. With RWD it's possible to drive in balance and in safety. That, in essence, is why I prefer RWD on the road and also, coming back to my original post above, why I think RWD is more fun - because that fun (or satisfaction as I'd rather call it) is accessible in a safe way on the public road. With FWD, you need to be a bit of a lunatic. On track it's a matter of preference really, and I like both, but generally prefer RWD because I find the handling repertoire much greater and more interesting.

I hope that explains my point and also why I didn't go into it fully in that post!

[otolith]

Would it be too horrendous an over-simplification to shorten your argument to "Slow in - fast out is safer on the road and works better with RWD"?

[Chris71]

otolith said:

Would it be too horrendous an over-simplification to shorten your argument to "Slow in - fast out is safer on the road and works better with RWD"?

Also the reason RWD is more fun IMHO. With a decent power-to-grip ratio you can enter a corner quite slowly and only push on once you have clear visibility of the exit and some idea of the grip levels. With FWD if you want to make things interesting it usually involves barrelling into the corner faster than you normally would and then trail braking deep in or lifting off mid corner.

[RobM77]

otolith said:

Would it be too horrendous an over-simplification to shorten your argument to "Slow in - fast out is safer on the road and works better with RWD"?

Yes, I could have just said that.

I thought that was what I was saying before to be honest, but I think it got confused with the whole point about grip. The point is that being low grip does not make a car more enjoyable on its own, one also has to consider whether the chassis/drivetrain is exploitable.

[cpl_payne]

Rob - do you have any experience with AWD? How do you rate it in comparison to RWD/FWD?

[RobM77]

cpl_payne said:

Rob - do you have any experience with AWD? How do you rate it in comparison to RWD/FWD?

This is all just my opinion of course I have a bit of experience with AWD, on both road and off road. I owned a Celica Carlos Sainz for 18 months and have driven an RS4 and Impreza, as well as off roaders like RRs and X5s obviously, but I think we can disregard them immediately because they're compromises between two disparate environments and will never excel at either. In addition to that experience, a friend of mine has a rare and rather fantastic special edition of the Evo VI which I've ridden in as a passenger. To be quite honest I find AWD amazingly effective on the loose, which is what my Celica, the Impreza and the Evo were designed to do, or perhaps on an extremely and unusually slippery road (water, leaves, mud or a rough surface). In such environments if I had to go quickly, I'd choose 4Wd every time (for example, if I entered a rally). However, for the vast majority of the driving that I personally do (track and M, A, B and C roads) in wet and dry, I much prefer 2WD. I find that being able to put torque down at one end of the car gives me more control; I guess it's a similar feeling to that a biker might have when switching to cars and being forced to use one brake pedal rather than two. Having discussed 4WD with people on here though, most notably GravelBen, I do wonder whether I would enjoy 4WD if I tried a better setup, or perhaps a more powerful car that really needs it on tarmac; as it is though, cars like the RS4 drive more or less like a FWD car at road speeds and also feel that they really don't need 4WD for the power they have. I drove an E92 M3 last night on dry and damp roads with more power at the wheels than an RS4 (both through drivetrain losses and the notoriously dissapointing rolling road results that RS4s get - the M3 did feel markedly quicker) and that was absolutely fine with just RWD - no need for 4WD at all.

[cpl_payne]

Thanks Rob, appreciate it. I've recently changed from a moderately powerful RWD (e30 325) to an underpowered AWD (2.0 NA Subaru Legacy) and the driving experience seems fairly similar though I haven't yet driven the AWD in anger or in slippery conditions. This is why I asked for an opinion from someone who has more driving experience and an a good analytical approach to handling, sorry if it sounds like flattery

[RobM77]

cpl_payne said:

Thanks Rob, appreciate it. I've recently changed from a moderately powerful RWD (e30 325) to an underpowered AWD (2.0 NA Subaru Legacy) and the driving experience seems fairly similar though I haven't yet driven the AWD in anger or in slippery conditions. This is why I asked for an opinion from someone who has more driving experience and an a good analytical approach to handling, sorry if it sounds like flattery

Sorry, yes, I felt a bit uncomfortable giving my opinion in such a position. Personally, I just found my Sainz a bit dull and lacking adjustability. I swapped it for a mk1 MR2 by the way, which I much preferred, and I haven't been back to 4WD since as an owner - every car I've owned since then has been RWD.

[busta]

All very good stuff Rob, but doesn't detract from the fact that the Peugeot 106 is considered a fun car by many, including me, and probably has a pretty deserved place in this thread. It seems strange that my suggestion of a FWD hot hatch has been so heavily debated, yet nobody's really questioned the suggestions of diesel family cars or even the Defender- a car that was designed without a single thought towards making it fun, which is painfully obvious when driving one.

Ho hum, I'll carry on not enjoying myself in my not very fun hot hatch, wishing I was still at work driving a Defender... Now why didn't I buy one of them for an everyday car?....

[ewenm]

busta said:

All very good stuff Rob, but doesn't detract from the fact that the Peugeot 106 is considered a fun car by many, including me, and probably has a pretty deserved place in this thread. It seems strange that my suggestion of a FWD hot hatch has been so heavily debated, yet nobody's really questioned the suggestions of diesel family cars or even the Defender- a car that was designed without a single thought towards making it fun, which is painfully obvious when driving one.

Ho hum, I'll carry on not enjoying myself in my not very fun hot hatch, wishing I was still at work driving a Defender... Now why didn't I buy one of them for an everyday car?....

However, a Defender is a lot of fun when driving along green lanes and byways where a 106 might struggle... Fun doesn't just mean "fun on a daily commute".

[eldar]

2CV. No power, you have to work hard at keeping every MPH. The handling is far better than it looks and feels. A real experience driving at 100% and surprising faster cars.

[busta]

ewenm said:

busta said:

All very good stuff Rob, but doesn't detract from the fact that the Peugeot 106 is considered a fun car by many, including me, and probably has a pretty deserved place in this thread. It seems strange that my suggestion of a FWD hot hatch has been so heavily debated, yet nobody's really questioned the suggestions of diesel family cars or even the Defender- a car that was designed without a single thought towards making it fun, which is painfully obvious when driving one.

Ho hum, I'll carry on not enjoying myself in my not very fun hot hatch, wishing I was still at work driving a Defender... Now why didn't I buy one of them for an everyday car?....

However, a Defender is a lot of fun when driving along green lanes and byways where a 106 might struggle... Fun doesn't just mean "fun on a daily commute".

I think that's more to do with where you are driving than what you are driving.

All of this is missing the point of this thread anyway. I want to hear what cars other people enjoy driving, not to be told my idea of fun is actually wrong and that I obviously don't know what fun is. Or that the most fun car on the road is an off roader because it can go where there aren't roads.

[ewenm]

busta said:

ewenm said:

busta said:

All very good stuff Rob, but doesn't detract from the fact that the Peugeot 106 is considered a fun car by many, including me, and probably has a pretty deserved place in this thread. It seems strange that my suggestion of a FWD hot hatch has been so heavily debated, yet nobody's really questioned the suggestions of diesel family cars or even the Defender- a car that was designed without a single thought towards making it fun, which is painfully obvious when driving one.

Ho hum, I'll carry on not enjoying myself in my not very fun hot hatch, wishing I was still at work driving a Defender... Now why didn't I buy one of them for an everyday car?....

However, a Defender is a lot of fun when driving along green lanes and byways where a 106 might struggle... Fun doesn't just mean "fun on a daily commute".

I think that's more to do with where you are driving than what you are driving.

Well, of course. Driving the Caterham across France by Autoroute in a heatwave was not fun. That doesn't mean the Caterham isn't the most fun car I've driven but that it depends where you're driving.

busta said:

All of this is missing the point of this thread anyway. I want to hear what cars other people enjoy driving, not to be told my idea of fun is actually wrong and that I obviously don't know what fun is. Or that the most fun car on the road is an off roader because it can go where there aren't roads.

You saying that a Defender isn't fun is surely just the same as anyone else saying your definition of fun is wrong. Two sides of the same coin.

You can have fun in any car. The most fun I've had is in the Caterham but then I've done over 80,000 miles in it so there have been a fair few not-fun miles in it too. I've had fun driving an asthmatic Rover Metro too, trying to maintain speed on country roads, getting it over Lakeland passes without it dying. The Mustang is objectively rubbish to drive, but it sounds great and I get a lot of enjoyment from the reactions it elicits in bystanders.

[pbirkett]

To be fair, I don't really recall anyone saying the 106 GTI was no fun to drive... it is, but this thread is about the cars which are MOST fun to drive, and although the 106 GTI is one of the most fun FWD cars, I still maintain a good rear drive car is the most fun for the simple reason that it take a lot more to master than a FWD car, and so the most rewards can be extracted....

However, fun is subjective at best, so each to their own, but it does seem like those who have experienced many cars, and those who are serious about driving, prefer RWD cars. Generally raw, lightweight ones at that.

Still, if we are including FWD cars in the thread, then it most definitely belongs, I will say that. I don't remember anyone mentioning a diesel car, although I'd suggest the vast majority do not belong in this thread

As for the Defender, a mates cousin has one with great big huge monster wheels on it, and it looks like amazingly good fun. I can definitely see where people are coming from with the Defender, and while I generally don't get off-road cars, I do get the Defender - such a basic, honest machine that can tackle all terrains with ease and be fixed with a couple of spanners. If its V8, then even better!

[RobM77]

ewenm said:

busta said:

All very good stuff Rob, but doesn't detract from the fact that the Peugeot 106 is considered a fun car by many, including me, and probably has a pretty deserved place in this thread. It seems strange that my suggestion of a FWD hot hatch has been so heavily debated, yet nobody's really questioned the suggestions of diesel family cars or even the Defender- a car that was designed without a single thought towards making it fun, which is painfully obvious when driving one.

Ho hum, I'll carry on not enjoying myself in my not very fun hot hatch, wishing I was still at work driving a Defender... Now why didn't I buy one of them for an everyday car?....

However, a Defender is a lot of fun when driving along green lanes and byways where a 106 might struggle... Fun doesn't just mean "fun on a daily commute".

I think that's subjective. I've done a 4x4 course and done a little off roading and whilst I found it midly interesting to be learning a new skill and marveling at what the off roader was capable of, I found it quite boring to be honest; it certainly wasn't fun for me at all. So I suppose it's all personal. If you asked me to entertain myself in a car, I'd be in a slicks and wings racing car on a race track, but that's just me I suppose

[busta]

The novelty of driving Defenders through muddy puddles doesn't last long when you drive things like this for a living, like I do!



Hmmm, so which is more fun off road now then...

[pbirkett]

To be fair though, most folks dont have the pleasure of driving a 6000 ton JCB for a living, so a defender will be fun to them

That does look fun though. I suspect the fact you have work to do in it lessens the fun factor; if you driving over a traffic jam into town in it, then that would be one hell of a giggle

[RobM77]

busta said:

The novelty of driving Defenders through muddy puddles doesn't last long when you drive things like this for a living, like I do!



Hmmm, so which is more fun off road now then...

I've driven a few things similar to that too and I have to say they bored me to tears I drove them because I enjoy driving different things, whether it's a tractor, combine, R300 or Ford Ka I'll leap in with great enthusiasm and see what it's like. We're all different though I guess in what we find fun, which I suppose is the real answer to this thread - everyone has their own idea of fun.

[Silver Smudger]

eldar said:

2CV. No power, you have to work hard at keeping every MPH. The handling is far better than it looks and feels. A real experience driving at 100% and surprising faster cars.

You may have something there - I was in my Mini (Leyland, not BMW) having some fun on some twisty roads, being followed by a 2CV years ago and he kept up much better than I thought he should be able to - He was grinning like a loon too!

[Cooky]

maybe it's time to test drive a Cerbera?