Driving Position Ergonomics - Anyone ever noticed??

Driving Position Ergonomics - Anyone ever noticed??

Author
Discussion

RicksAlfas

13,355 posts

243 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
kambites said:
RicksAlfas said:
kambites said:
And whilst we're on the subject of ergonomics, does anyone still make cars for the UK market with the indicator stalk on the right side?
I don't think I've ever had a car like that?
confused
Looking at your car history, I'd say that's because you've never owned a car that was engineered for a RHD market except for the Westfield, which (like the Elise) uses an off-the-shelf column unit from a LHD car.
Ah right. I see. The Westfield was an early kit, so didn't have a column stalk at all.
It had one of these on the dash:

biggrin

Herman Toothrot

6,702 posts

197 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
kambites said:
cptsideways said:
But they predominantly design their cars for export wink As someone who is 6ft 1" I find most jap stuff has a comfier position for long legs, most euro cars the pedals are too close to the steering wheel, especially the French stuff. Volvo's would appear to be the exception, with great driving positions.
I think cars have generally got worse in this regard over the years. Manufacturers seem to believe that we're evolving back into monkeys.
Totally agree. My VW Passat I have the wheel pulled as close to me as possible and I still have to bend my legs far more than i'd like.

jayfish

6,795 posts

202 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
Herman Toothrot said:
kambites said:
cptsideways said:
But they predominantly design their cars for export wink As someone who is 6ft 1" I find most jap stuff has a comfier position for long legs, most euro cars the pedals are too close to the steering wheel, especially the French stuff. Volvo's would appear to be the exception, with great driving positions.
I think cars have generally got worse in this regard over the years. Manufacturers seem to believe that we're evolving back into monkeys.
Totally agree. My VW Passat I have the wheel pulled as close to me as possible and I still have to bend my legs far more than i'd like.
My E-class is the opposite, the pedals are too far away in relation to the wheel, for me to have comfortable reach to the pedals i have to recline the seat further then I like to get good wheel position(I'm a long legged 6'2" as well), mostly due to the accelerator being set so far to the right that I think I know what a woman feels like when she goes for a smear test..

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
Herman Toothrot said:
kambites said:
cptsideways said:
But they predominantly design their cars for export wink As someone who is 6ft 1" I find most jap stuff has a comfier position for long legs, most euro cars the pedals are too close to the steering wheel, especially the French stuff. Volvo's would appear to be the exception, with great driving positions.
I think cars have generally got worse in this regard over the years. Manufacturers seem to believe that we're evolving back into monkeys.
Totally agree. My VW Passat I have the wheel pulled as close to me as possible and I still have to bend my legs far more than i'd like.
I've got some photos I took at my parents place which illustrate the point nicely. Unfortunately my Dad took them so they're all blurred biggrin Basically though, I sat in the following and got a side on shot:

1948 MG TC
1957 MG TF
1973 MGB GT
1998 BMW E36 328i
2003 Lotus Elise S2
2007 BMW Z4 Coupé
2007 BMW E90 320d

As the years go on the cars steadily change in their relative positions of wheel and pedals. In the earliest car, the 1948 TC, my legs are straight and the wheel is about 8 inches from my chest (or feels it at least!). It was the same in my Granpa's 1930s Alvis. As the years go on, the wheel gets further and further away until in the later cars my legs are bent double and the wheel is at arm's length. The relative shift is a couple of feet at least! The other thing that's noticeable is how much higher seating positions have got over the years. It's about an inch a decade from the cars listed above. I'm someone who likes to sit low in a car with a slight bend in legs and arms and I have long legs, so I find modern cars almost impossible to drive!

Thankfully, modern BMWs such as the last two on the list above are actually very good with their adjustment (although I still end up on the extremes - seat as low as possible and wheel as far out as possible). Many cars though, such as Porsches, haven't got this range of adjustment and I simply can't get comfortable in them.

Strangely, single seaters have gone the other way. Generally, the later the car, the closer the wheel comes to you. I raced a 1995 Van Diemen Formula Renault last season with just a 2cm spacer on the wheel, and then I switched to a 1998 Ray in F4 spec (both the Ray and Renault are in my profile pic if you're interested - me in front in the Renault, and the Ray is following), and in that later car I didn't need a spacer at all! This is logical though, it's the downforce and mechanical grip levels increasing, so one needs more leverage on the wheel.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 20th October 11:43

jayfish

6,795 posts

202 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
Herman Toothrot said:
kambites said:
cptsideways said:
But they predominantly design their cars for export wink As someone who is 6ft 1" I find most jap stuff has a comfier position for long legs, most euro cars the pedals are too close to the steering wheel, especially the French stuff. Volvo's would appear to be the exception, with great driving positions.
I think cars have generally got worse in this regard over the years. Manufacturers seem to believe that we're evolving back into monkeys.
Totally agree. My VW Passat I have the wheel pulled as close to me as possible and I still have to bend my legs far more than i'd like.
I've got some photos I took at my parents place which illustrate the point nicely. Unfortunately my Dad took them so they're all blurred biggrin Basically though, I sat in the following and got a side on shot:

1948 MG TC
1957 MG TF
1973 MGB GT
1998 BMW E36 328i
2003 Lotus Elise S2
2007 BMW Z4 Coupé
2007 BMW E90 320d

As the years go on the cars steadily change in their relative positions of wheel and pedals. In the earliest car, the 1948 TC, my legs are straight and the wheel is about 8 inches from my chest (or feels it at least!). It was the same in my Granpa's 1930s Alvis. As the years go on, the wheel gets further and further away until in the later cars my legs are bent double and the wheel is at arm's length. The relative shift is a couple of feet at least! The other thing that's noticeable is how much higher seating positions have got over the years. It's about an inch a decade from the cars listed above. I'm someone who likes to sit low in a car with a slight bend in legs and arms and I have long legs, so I find modern cars almost impossible to drive!

Thankfully, modern BMWs such as the last two on the list above are actually very good with their adjustment (although I still end up on the extremes - seat as low as possible and wheel as far out as possible). Many cars though, such as Porsches, haven't got this range of adjustment and I simply can't get comfortable in them.

Strangely, single seaters have gone the other way. Generally, the later the car, the closer the wheel comes to you. I raced a 1995 Van Diemen Formula Renault last season with just a 2cm spacer on the wheel, and then I switched to a 1998 Ray in F4 spec (both the Ray and Renault are in my profile pic if you're interested - me in front in the Renault, and the Ray is following), and in that later car I didn't need a spacer at all! This is logical though, it's the downforce and mechanical grip levels increasing, so one needs more leverage on the wheel.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 20th October 11:43
MG TC cloud9 wanted one of those since i was about 6, still have the matchbox model somewhere smile

Interesting observations

RossB_eg4

279 posts

191 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
kambites said:
And whilst we're on the subject of ergonomics, does anyone still make cars for the UK market with the indicator stalk on the right side?
None that i can think of; it used to be largely cars that were from or for the japenese market that got this i think? Coming from an import civic to a UK civic involved a lot of full throttle window wiping at junctions.

Having the indicators on the right side of the wheel is genuinely one of my favourite features on a car; it makes so much sense. In fast driving situation it allows you to keep a hand dedicated to gear changing, and motorway driving means you can dedicate your elbow to your armrest.

Mastodon2

13,818 posts

164 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
mrdelmonti said:
The 206 I had was horrible, the pedals were offset meaning my back was constantly twisted ever so slightly.
I had a sit in a colleagues old 106 and the pedal offset is horrible, it's like you are turning towards the nearside while trying to look ahead! Apparently Citroen Saxos suffer the same misalignment, but I cannot comment personally on this.

My Fiesta is not that bad in terms of alignment, the steering wheel is pretty much bang on parallel to the front of the car and the pedals are pretty well lined up with the seat. The only ergonomic thing that really irks me is that the pedals themselves are pretty small and the brake and throttle are too far apart to make heel and toe even half worth bothering with. The throttle is also set closer to the floor than the brake, making H&T even more difficult. Never noticed this height misalignment in other cars. Also, the seats are not wildly comfortable towards the end of long journies (4 hours and up, but then the Fiesta was never designed as a motorway car) but I don't know if that comes under "ergonomics"; someone else might find them to be incredibly comfortable, but I feel I'd benefit from a Recaro!

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
jayfish said:
RobM77 said:
Herman Toothrot said:
kambites said:
cptsideways said:
But they predominantly design their cars for export wink As someone who is 6ft 1" I find most jap stuff has a comfier position for long legs, most euro cars the pedals are too close to the steering wheel, especially the French stuff. Volvo's would appear to be the exception, with great driving positions.
I think cars have generally got worse in this regard over the years. Manufacturers seem to believe that we're evolving back into monkeys.
Totally agree. My VW Passat I have the wheel pulled as close to me as possible and I still have to bend my legs far more than i'd like.
I've got some photos I took at my parents place which illustrate the point nicely. Unfortunately my Dad took them so they're all blurred biggrin Basically though, I sat in the following and got a side on shot:

1948 MG TC
1957 MG TF
1973 MGB GT
1998 BMW E36 328i
2003 Lotus Elise S2
2007 BMW Z4 Coupé
2007 BMW E90 320d

As the years go on the cars steadily change in their relative positions of wheel and pedals. In the earliest car, the 1948 TC, my legs are straight and the wheel is about 8 inches from my chest (or feels it at least!). It was the same in my Granpa's 1930s Alvis. As the years go on, the wheel gets further and further away until in the later cars my legs are bent double and the wheel is at arm's length. The relative shift is a couple of feet at least! The other thing that's noticeable is how much higher seating positions have got over the years. It's about an inch a decade from the cars listed above. I'm someone who likes to sit low in a car with a slight bend in legs and arms and I have long legs, so I find modern cars almost impossible to drive!

Thankfully, modern BMWs such as the last two on the list above are actually very good with their adjustment (although I still end up on the extremes - seat as low as possible and wheel as far out as possible). Many cars though, such as Porsches, haven't got this range of adjustment and I simply can't get comfortable in them.

Strangely, single seaters have gone the other way. Generally, the later the car, the closer the wheel comes to you. I raced a 1995 Van Diemen Formula Renault last season with just a 2cm spacer on the wheel, and then I switched to a 1998 Ray in F4 spec (both the Ray and Renault are in my profile pic if you're interested - me in front in the Renault, and the Ray is following), and in that later car I didn't need a spacer at all! This is logical though, it's the downforce and mechanical grip levels increasing, so one needs more leverage on the wheel.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 20th October 11:43
MG TC cloud9 wanted one of those since i was about 6, still have the matchbox model somewhere smile

Interesting observations
It's actually up for sale if you want one! smile My Dad bought it as a rusted wreck that had quite literally fallen to pieces. When I was about 15 years old I went up to Rutland with him in a lorry to collect boxes of bits, the chassis, engine and bodywork. Three years and much hard graft later and the car was in almost concours condition. My parents have since toured the UK and parts of Europe in it. It's a bit harsh on longer journeys though, which they now tend to do in the TF instead, which is a big step on, especially in suspension as it has wishbones, springs and dampers at the front instead of the TC's leaf springs all round. To be honest the lack of seatbelts worries me in both of them!

It was very interesting stepping directly between each car in date order - the steering wheels get steadily further away and the pedals steadily closer as the cars get newer.

pilchardthecat

7,483 posts

178 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
I've always found the driving position in BMWs to be very very good - although the seats have a large number of different adjustments so it's easy to get it wrong if you don't approach it the correct way;

The most important thing is to first adjust seat height, tilt and distance from pedals when NOT holding the steering wheel. Then adjust the wheel position, orientation and backrest angle to suit.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
pilchardthecat said:
The most important thing is to first adjust seat height, tilt and distance from pedals when NOT holding the steering wheel. Then adjust the wheel position, orientation and backrest angle to suit.
And then find that even on full extension, the steering wheel is still too far away, in my experience. BMWs aren't as bad as many manufacturers, but I still typically can't get the steering wheel close enough.

jayfish

6,795 posts

202 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
kambites said:
pilchardthecat said:
The most important thing is to first adjust seat height, tilt and distance from pedals when NOT holding the steering wheel. Then adjust the wheel position, orientation and backrest angle to suit.
And then find that even on full extension, the steering wheel is still too far away, in my experience. BMWs aren't as bad as many manufacturers, but I still typically can't get the steering wheel close enough.
possibly due to airbags the design mandate has changed?

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
jayfish said:
possibly due to airbags the design mandate has changed?
I think I'm just an odd shape, to be honest. I like to think I'm just further down the evolutionary path than the apes that clearly make up most of Pistonheads.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 20th October 14:16

pilchardthecat

7,483 posts

178 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
jayfish said:
kambites said:
pilchardthecat said:
The most important thing is to first adjust seat height, tilt and distance from pedals when NOT holding the steering wheel. Then adjust the wheel position, orientation and backrest angle to suit.
And then find that even on full extension, the steering wheel is still too far away, in my experience. BMWs aren't as bad as many manufacturers, but I still typically can't get the steering wheel close enough.
possibly due to airbags the design mandate has changed?
Or he's just a funny shape hehe

Although i do have fairly long arms (for a human)

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
I'm the same as Kambites. If I adjust the seat so that I'm comfortable I can't even touch the steering wheel, let alone operate it. I'm limited to buying cars with loads of adjustment (where I can reach a compromise), or cars without an airbag where popping a spacer behind the steering wheel is possible. Mind you, even then I run into problems getting 1st gear.

busta

4,504 posts

232 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
jayfish said:
kambites said:
pilchardthecat said:
The most important thing is to first adjust seat height, tilt and distance from pedals when NOT holding the steering wheel. Then adjust the wheel position, orientation and backrest angle to suit.
And then find that even on full extension, the steering wheel is still too far away, in my experience. BMWs aren't as bad as many manufacturers, but I still typically can't get the steering wheel close enough.
possibly due to airbags the design mandate has changed?
I think you might be onto something here. The further away from the wheel they can get you the more room there is for an airbag, and more time for it to inflate before you hit it. Both these factors could make a massive difference in its effectiveness.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
busta said:
jayfish said:
kambites said:
pilchardthecat said:
The most important thing is to first adjust seat height, tilt and distance from pedals when NOT holding the steering wheel. Then adjust the wheel position, orientation and backrest angle to suit.
And then find that even on full extension, the steering wheel is still too far away, in my experience. BMWs aren't as bad as many manufacturers, but I still typically can't get the steering wheel close enough.
possibly due to airbags the design mandate has changed?
I think you might be onto something here. The further away from the wheel they can get you the more room there is for an airbag, and more time for it to inflate before you hit it. Both these factors could make a massive difference in its effectiveness.
That's what I always thought, but it doesn't explain why I can get the SLK steering wheel closer to my chest than a Porsche 911 wheel. Surely manufacturers would do what they could. I think it might be what I explained previously - whether the design, engineering and testing cost is offset by the profits made from people with long legs. It may be cheaper for Porsche to just ignore people like me than spend money accomodating me in their cars.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
The wheel should always be the same distance from you though, so that you can steer effectively.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
Zod said:
The wheel should always be the same distance from you though, so that you can steer effectively.
I dunno. I sometimes wonder these days if most drivers would happily crash because they can't actually reach the steering wheel as long as the air bag is efficient enough to save them when they do. Lets face it, the dummies don't get a chance to steer around the concrete block in the N-Cap tests...

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 20th October 18:22

sebhaque

6,402 posts

180 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
Drove an E92 320d at Wittering earlier this week, couldn't get comfortable in it. Felt like a strange driving position to me - conversely I drove a 116d a while ago and it felt much, much nicer.

My VX would make for interesting studies as my legs are almost straight when I'm driving. Very comfortable position although your elbow does ache after an hour or so of leaning on hard plastic bulkhead smile

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Wednesday 20th October 2010
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
I have terrible trouble fitting in any car built after about 1980. If I set the seat so my legs have a slight bend then I can't even touch the steering wheel, let alone drive! The current Merc SLK is pretty much the only car that isn't a compromise for me. Any car built pre 1980 is fine though! Strange.
You must not have tried an Italian pre-1980 car then! You would probably find Giulia Alfas completely undriveable for the gorilla position they require.

The Elise has the best driving position of any car I've been in. I really, really disliked a MkVI Golf I drove - the relationship between seat and pedals felt totally wrong (like a van's).