Citroen Xantia Activa????
Discussion
NoelWatson said:
GHW said:
especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.
Will the Torsen be any use on tight uphill bends if the inside rear comes off the ground?GHW said:
NoelWatson said:
GHW said:
especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.
Will the Torsen be any use on tight uphill bends if the inside rear comes off the ground?Alternatively a Torsen type can work if you can get one like the T2-R or Wavetrac types
GHW said:
IME, the primary factors for making a fun autotest/solo car are low weight and short wheelbase, not to mention mechanical simplicity (so you can fix it in the paddock when you inevitably break it). The Xantia doesn't excel in any of those categories.
If you're considering RWD, it's difficult to get a nice, small RWD car. Also, a limited slip differential is essential if you're looking to have silly sideways fun on these events. Without an LSD, you'll just be spinning up your inside wheel in slow/tight turns and generally looking like a dick
An MX-5 would be a good choice, especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.
However, if it were my £800-£1200 budget for a car that was purely for these events, I'd look at getting a dirt cheap small hatch (probably a S1 106 XSi or Rallye), making sure the rear brakes are in tip-top condition and fitting a fly-off handbrake. It'll be just as much fun as an MX-5, it'll be cheaper and easier to look after and you won't care about giving it a complete raping in an industrial estate car park every weekend
Thanks.If you're considering RWD, it's difficult to get a nice, small RWD car. Also, a limited slip differential is essential if you're looking to have silly sideways fun on these events. Without an LSD, you'll just be spinning up your inside wheel in slow/tight turns and generally looking like a dick
An MX-5 would be a good choice, especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.However, if it were my £800-£1200 budget for a car that was purely for these events, I'd look at getting a dirt cheap small hatch (probably a S1 106 XSi or Rallye), making sure the rear brakes are in tip-top condition and fitting a fly-off handbrake. It'll be just as much fun as an MX-5, it'll be cheaper and easier to look after and you won't care about giving it a complete raping in an industrial estate car park every weekend
Hatches don't really interest me, I do have a Metro on the short list, but that's more because with a VVC engine in it'll be quick.
Have autotested a Pug 106 in the past (and with a few trophies too). But a RWD car is so much more fun IMO and would be my preferred choice, even if ultimately it's less competitive overall. Size I agree is important, as is either light/power steering and a quick rack.
But I'm not fussed about trying to win as I'm fully aware that takes money to be at the top. I just want to compete for fun.
But I'm also interested in events like this:
Which you can see has a real mix of surfaces. A low riding, stiffly sprung vehicle might not be the most ideal setup for this, or indeed a short wheelbase hatch.
My thinking, and it was only idle curiosity and interest, was how would the Xantia Activa's suspension cope with such terrain? It has good compliance over the rough, but the active roll bars mean it should be taught in the corners too.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 3rd November 08:46
300bhp/ton said:
GHW said:
IME, the primary factors for making a fun autotest/solo car are low weight and short wheelbase, not to mention mechanical simplicity (so you can fix it in the paddock when you inevitably break it). The Xantia doesn't excel in any of those categories.
If you're considering RWD, it's difficult to get a nice, small RWD car. Also, a limited slip differential is essential if you're looking to have silly sideways fun on these events. Without an LSD, you'll just be spinning up your inside wheel in slow/tight turns and generally looking like a dick An MX-5 would be a good choice, especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.
However, if it were my £800-£1200 budget for a car that was purely for these events, I'd look at getting a dirt cheap small hatch (probably a S1 106 XSi or Rallye), making sure the rear brakes are in tip-top condition and fitting a fly-off handbrake. It'll be just as much fun as an MX-5, it'll be cheaper and easier to look after and you won't care about giving it a complete raping in an industrial estate car park every weekend
Thanks.If you're considering RWD, it's difficult to get a nice, small RWD car. Also, a limited slip differential is essential if you're looking to have silly sideways fun on these events. Without an LSD, you'll just be spinning up your inside wheel in slow/tight turns and generally looking like a dick
An MX-5 would be a good choice, especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.However, if it were my £800-£1200 budget for a car that was purely for these events, I'd look at getting a dirt cheap small hatch (probably a S1 106 XSi or Rallye), making sure the rear brakes are in tip-top condition and fitting a fly-off handbrake. It'll be just as much fun as an MX-5, it'll be cheaper and easier to look after and you won't care about giving it a complete raping in an industrial estate car park every weekend
Hatches don't really interest me, I do have a Metro on the short list, but that's more because with a VVC engine in it'll be quick.
Have autotested a Pug 106 in the past (and with a few trophies too). But a RWD car is so much more fun IMO and would be my preferred choice, even if ultimately it's less competitive overall. Size I agree is important, as is either light/power steering and a quick rack.
But I'm not fussed about trying to win as I'm fully aware that takes money to be at the top. I just want to compete for fun.
But I'm also interested in events like this:
Which you can see has a real mix of surfaces. A low riding, stiffly sprung vehicle might not be the most ideal setup for this, or indeed a short wheelbase hatch.
My thinking, and it was only idle curiosity and interest, was how would the Xantia Activa's suspension cope with such terrain? It has good compliance over the rough, but the active roll bars mean it should be taught in the corners too.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 3rd November 08:46
For that kind of event (Cheltenham MC Gymkhana?), with a preference for RWD, I'd put my money on the E30 3-series. Best bet probably a 325 Sport (I think the regs for the CMC events still let you use 6-pot engines). The E30 suspension is lovely and compliant, and 325 Sports are sideways all day long
(it'd be less fun on a traditional auto test though
)
(it'd be less fun on a traditional auto test though
)GHW said:
For that kind of event (Cheltenham MC Gymkhana?), with a preference for RWD, I'd put my money on the E30 3-series. Best bet probably a 325 Sport (I think the regs for the CMC events still let you use 6-pot engines). The E30 suspension is lovely and compliant, and 325 Sports are sideways all day long
(it'd be less fun on a traditional auto test though)
4 pot only and I believe no turbo's.(it'd be less fun on a traditional auto test though
)NoelWatson said:
300bhp/ton said:
GHW said:
IME, the primary factors for making a fun autotest/solo car are low weight and short wheelbase, not to mention mechanical simplicity (so you can fix it in the paddock when you inevitably break it). The Xantia doesn't excel in any of those categories.
If you're considering RWD, it's difficult to get a nice, small RWD car. Also, a limited slip differential is essential if you're looking to have silly sideways fun on these events. Without an LSD, you'll just be spinning up your inside wheel in slow/tight turns and generally looking like a dick An MX-5 would be a good choice, especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.
However, if it were my £800-£1200 budget for a car that was purely for these events, I'd look at getting a dirt cheap small hatch (probably a S1 106 XSi or Rallye), making sure the rear brakes are in tip-top condition and fitting a fly-off handbrake. It'll be just as much fun as an MX-5, it'll be cheaper and easier to look after and you won't care about giving it a complete raping in an industrial estate car park every weekend
Thanks.If you're considering RWD, it's difficult to get a nice, small RWD car. Also, a limited slip differential is essential if you're looking to have silly sideways fun on these events. Without an LSD, you'll just be spinning up your inside wheel in slow/tight turns and generally looking like a dick
An MX-5 would be a good choice, especially a Mk1 1.8 with a Torsen diff.However, if it were my £800-£1200 budget for a car that was purely for these events, I'd look at getting a dirt cheap small hatch (probably a S1 106 XSi or Rallye), making sure the rear brakes are in tip-top condition and fitting a fly-off handbrake. It'll be just as much fun as an MX-5, it'll be cheaper and easier to look after and you won't care about giving it a complete raping in an industrial estate car park every weekend
Hatches don't really interest me, I do have a Metro on the short list, but that's more because with a VVC engine in it'll be quick.
Have autotested a Pug 106 in the past (and with a few trophies too). But a RWD car is so much more fun IMO and would be my preferred choice, even if ultimately it's less competitive overall. Size I agree is important, as is either light/power steering and a quick rack.
But I'm not fussed about trying to win as I'm fully aware that takes money to be at the top. I just want to compete for fun.
But I'm also interested in events like this:
Which you can see has a real mix of surfaces. A low riding, stiffly sprung vehicle might not be the most ideal setup for this, or indeed a short wheelbase hatch.
My thinking, and it was only idle curiosity and interest, was how would the Xantia Activa's suspension cope with such terrain? It has good compliance over the rough, but the active roll bars mean it should be taught in the corners too.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 3rd November 08:46
doogz said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2172329.htm
Possibly a bit over budget for what you're after, but having had a shot of a mates 1600 Crossflow'd Frogeye Sprite at a grass autotest, they are immensely fun!
Looks like a riot. I do have the Spridget down on my size comparison chart. Think I'd like something a little more modern though, so less mods needed. But I agree, I suspect it would be huge fun. Possibly a bit over budget for what you're after, but having had a shot of a mates 1600 Crossflow'd Frogeye Sprite at a grass autotest, they are immensely fun!
GHW said:
For that kind of event (Cheltenham MC Gymkhana?), with a preference for RWD, I'd put my money on the E30 3-series. Best bet probably a 325 Sport (I think the regs for the CMC events still let you use 6-pot engines). The E30 suspension is lovely and compliant, and 325 Sports are sideways all day long
(it'd be less fun on a traditional auto test though)
Should have said a bit more.(it'd be less fun on a traditional auto test though
)I know a good vehicle for doing this and auto solo's and likely the occasional autotest too are ideally different.
But I'm only out to have fun rather than title chasing and as tests/solos, usually have classes I'm happy to have a less ideal vehicle for them if it offers up more fun.
The e30 did appeal, but like you say a 325 would be nice. But as it wouldn't be allowed at some events I'd be no better off than I am now with my V8 TR7.
In truth I think a 924 or MX-5 are the most likely, probably the Porsche as I think it will eligible for Historics too.
300bhp/ton said:
Smike said:
davepoth said:
Smike said:
Citman said:
Not sure I approve of this driving at all, given it very much appears to be public roads, but it does give some idea of what it's capable of cornering at speed...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v1CF_fY4nE
You would have thought it would beat a Primera with 25bhp less round Thruxton by more than a tenth of a second though? Perhaps it works better on slower bends?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v1CF_fY4nE
Page1 said:
"Car" magazine used one at their annual handling day at Thruxton in 1996. Its lap time was 1/10 of a second faster than the P11 Primera Sri with 25ish bhp less.
I think their summary was along the lines of "very able on a B-road, could do with some roll to find the limit on a track".
E36 Compact 318ti was quite a bit quicker and might do better in an autotest perhaps?
Anyway, December '96 issue if you even care....
I think their summary was along the lines of "very able on a B-road, could do with some roll to find the limit on a track".
E36 Compact 318ti was quite a bit quicker and might do better in an autotest perhaps?
Anyway, December '96 issue if you even care....
I've just done some Googling and Parkers has a 2.0 SRI Preimera listed at 88hp and 14 sec 0-60mph
which can't be right. Carfolio doesn't have the SRI but it does have 150 and 180 something 2.0 litre models listed.The 150bhp version was the GT.
Mr Will said:
300bhp/ton said:
...no turbos...
Can't use an Activa then.
Actually it did cross my mind, but I thought I'd investigate the possibilities of the suspension system first. Also I'm not sure, but was the Activa suspension used on non turbo models too, Wikipedia is a little vague??
300bhp/ton said:
Mr Will said:
300bhp/ton said:
...no turbos...
Can't use an Activa then.Actually it did cross my mind, but I thought I'd investigate the possibilities of the suspension system first. Also I'm not sure, but was the Activa suspension used on non turbo models too, Wikipedia is a little vague??
Are you sure you need the Activa suspension though, the lesser cars came with Hydractive II computer controlled suspension, which lacks the active anti-roll but is significantly simpler and still rather effective (stiffens up automatically according to throttle/steering/etc).
I still think you are mad for even considering it though
The Crack Fox said:
I nearly bought one of these, 2.0 turbo petrol, new (not with my own money, I hasten to add). I liked the ride, styling, practicality (bootspace) and 0-60 time. The fact that you hardly see them anymore tells you a lot about reliability, a colleague did actually buy one new, it was a world of pain, especially the suspension and electrical sillies.
You see you're totally wrong - You see Xantia's all the time, you just don't notice them! We've had one for about 100K miles (and 12 years) so tend to spot them and, although it's had a couple of suspension spheres replaced, they're cheap to do and otherwise it's been pretty solid. We're often surprised just how many you do see compared with much more heavily sold cars from the same era.
They're surprisingly well made (where it counts - the dash is a bit cheap looking), very comfortable, decently nippy and really rather heavy (certainly not made of chewing gum). They handle ok, in a lots of roll and understeer way (The Activa doesn't do much of either I understand), but I can't imagine any of them making a decent competition car of any sort really.
Nice wafty barge, which we're really struggling to find a suitable replacement for, but not a competition car even in Activa form.
M.
PS Pretty sure in the UK the Activas were all turbo - not sure about France.
Edited by marcosgt on Wednesday 3rd November 12:11
Mr Will said:
300bhp/ton said:
Mr Will said:
300bhp/ton said:
...no turbos...
Can't use an Activa then.Actually it did cross my mind, but I thought I'd investigate the possibilities of the suspension system first. Also I'm not sure, but was the Activa suspension used on non turbo models too, Wikipedia is a little vague??
Are you sure you need the Activa suspension though, the lesser cars came with Hydractive II computer controlled suspension, which lacks the active anti-roll but is significantly simpler and still rather effective (stiffens up automatically according to throttle/steering/etc).
I still think you are mad for even considering it though
In truth, it was more just interest and curiosity. Porsche 924 and MX-5 are the main cars I'll be looking out for I think, although a Gen 1 RX-7 would be equally as good if not too rusty and running. I'm also hoping to convince my brother to go halves on the purchase too
A Xantia Activa is one of the best kept secrets of the French automotive world. Most people try and avoid them because they're 'unreliable' which keeps them nice and cheap for those in the know! here are the facts though, if that's what your after:
From my point of view, active suspension (any form of hydropneumatic setup) will always be superior to passive suspension for day to day use, because it's actively managing the ride, not just reacting to bumps. Actvia's are very strange to drive to begin with.....you're wafting along softly along a fast A-road, and you approach a bend. You turn in at a good speed, the car does not lean. This isn't that strange in itself, as many low and stiffly sprung cars will not lean. But the Activa maintains a soft ride, without leaning! That's the masterpiece. If you hit a bump halfway round, the wheels will absorb the impact with nearly full suspension travel, yet the car will not be leaning. I genuinely feel sorry for the front tyres!
They're impressive, as opposed to involving to drive. Like all Xantia's, theres very little feedback between driver and car, so I wouldn't describe it as a driver's car. The suspension really does do it's thing, but it's not a sports car, or even a hot hatch. I think Citroen missed a trick with it, they tried to market it as a revolutionary suspension setup, in a road car. They should have marketed it for what it was and given it a bit more grunt. The UK versions didn't get the 3.0 V6, as there would have been issues with getting the steering column to fit and if you make these modifications the car has to undergo a whole new series of safety testing etc....not finanically sensible for a car you probably won't sell many of in the UK anyway!
The suspension (and the whole car for that matter) is actually reliable, and solidly made. It can take a pounding, although with age some cars are starting to have a failure around the strut tops that results in the strut piercing through the bonnet. It's across the whoel Xantia range though, not just Activas. I'm not sure what causes it myself, Xantia's are extremely rust resistant so I'd be surprised if it was that.
The system is the same in principle as a Hydractively controlled Xantia, with the Activa system added in. It's not a system you can easily remove and retrofit though. Even the suspension's ECU is calibrated to the engine's.
The only weak link in the suspension system is the Active Rams, of which there are two....one on the nearside front, and the other on the offside rear, both in place of an anti-roll bar droplink. They're not cheap from Citroen (around £300) and after 100k miles they can start leaking. As far as I'm aware, rebuild kits aren't available. They're pretty important, as aside from all the computing power in the car, they're the parts that stop the car leaning. It doesn't affect all, so it's obviously some parimeter that was missed in testing due to the way some people treat their cars or something.
For motorsport though, it's not gonna be competitive in my opinion. The UK cars only came with a 2.0 8v turbo engine, which was always gearing for torque/cruising rather than outright pace. The gear ratios (gearbox is taken from a diesel) reflect this. It doesn't really like to rev and makes all it's power low down. The in gear performance is strong and consistant and the boost chimes in at around 2.5k rpm, but sprinting through the gears is not it's strong point and it loses alot of ground in between changes.
Another reason it won't be competitive is kerb weight. It's nearly 1450kg! You could probably get it down to high 1300's by losing the interior and all the day to day gubbins ( for example it has 11 spheres, and they weigh around 6kg each where a non-computer controlled Xantia has 6), but it'll still understeer like a b
h under short sharp fast corners and they destroy tyres! In fact, Michelin comissioned special Pilot tyres in the size required for these cars. 'WangLi' would probably not last 5000miles in daily use where on a normal car they might last 15k.
I have considered making a track car from one myself, though just for a hobby. Stripped and caged with a suitable wheel/tyre combo. Shave the flywheel quite a bit, play with the boost settings and fit a decent FMI. Look into fitting a 16v head from a GTi-6 and fabrication manifolds etc to suit.
With the suspension, you can adjust the stiffness of a sphere aby altering the size of the hole the fluid flows through. Bigger hole= softer springing. If you want a smaller hole, try a sphere from another model which uses different pressures. For example, to stiffen a BX 16v for track use, you can fit XM front spheres to the back of a BX and Xantia Hydractive ones to the front, but thats another (dull) topic!) Around a track or similar, a small pocket rocket screamer hot hatch will probably be more of a weapon if it's been setup for the track. But that's missing the beauty of the Activa, it can nearly be as good yet ride very smootly and comfortably on the road.
Anyway, sifting through all the rumours and pub ammo, I'd say no it's not a good car for that, but yes it's an awesome car. Shame they struggle to better 20mpg!
From my point of view, active suspension (any form of hydropneumatic setup) will always be superior to passive suspension for day to day use, because it's actively managing the ride, not just reacting to bumps. Actvia's are very strange to drive to begin with.....you're wafting along softly along a fast A-road, and you approach a bend. You turn in at a good speed, the car does not lean. This isn't that strange in itself, as many low and stiffly sprung cars will not lean. But the Activa maintains a soft ride, without leaning! That's the masterpiece. If you hit a bump halfway round, the wheels will absorb the impact with nearly full suspension travel, yet the car will not be leaning. I genuinely feel sorry for the front tyres!
They're impressive, as opposed to involving to drive. Like all Xantia's, theres very little feedback between driver and car, so I wouldn't describe it as a driver's car. The suspension really does do it's thing, but it's not a sports car, or even a hot hatch. I think Citroen missed a trick with it, they tried to market it as a revolutionary suspension setup, in a road car. They should have marketed it for what it was and given it a bit more grunt. The UK versions didn't get the 3.0 V6, as there would have been issues with getting the steering column to fit and if you make these modifications the car has to undergo a whole new series of safety testing etc....not finanically sensible for a car you probably won't sell many of in the UK anyway!
The suspension (and the whole car for that matter) is actually reliable, and solidly made. It can take a pounding, although with age some cars are starting to have a failure around the strut tops that results in the strut piercing through the bonnet. It's across the whoel Xantia range though, not just Activas. I'm not sure what causes it myself, Xantia's are extremely rust resistant so I'd be surprised if it was that.
The system is the same in principle as a Hydractively controlled Xantia, with the Activa system added in. It's not a system you can easily remove and retrofit though. Even the suspension's ECU is calibrated to the engine's.
The only weak link in the suspension system is the Active Rams, of which there are two....one on the nearside front, and the other on the offside rear, both in place of an anti-roll bar droplink. They're not cheap from Citroen (around £300) and after 100k miles they can start leaking. As far as I'm aware, rebuild kits aren't available. They're pretty important, as aside from all the computing power in the car, they're the parts that stop the car leaning. It doesn't affect all, so it's obviously some parimeter that was missed in testing due to the way some people treat their cars or something.
For motorsport though, it's not gonna be competitive in my opinion. The UK cars only came with a 2.0 8v turbo engine, which was always gearing for torque/cruising rather than outright pace. The gear ratios (gearbox is taken from a diesel) reflect this. It doesn't really like to rev and makes all it's power low down. The in gear performance is strong and consistant and the boost chimes in at around 2.5k rpm, but sprinting through the gears is not it's strong point and it loses alot of ground in between changes.
Another reason it won't be competitive is kerb weight. It's nearly 1450kg! You could probably get it down to high 1300's by losing the interior and all the day to day gubbins ( for example it has 11 spheres, and they weigh around 6kg each where a non-computer controlled Xantia has 6), but it'll still understeer like a b
h under short sharp fast corners and they destroy tyres! In fact, Michelin comissioned special Pilot tyres in the size required for these cars. 'WangLi' would probably not last 5000miles in daily use where on a normal car they might last 15k.I have considered making a track car from one myself, though just for a hobby. Stripped and caged with a suitable wheel/tyre combo. Shave the flywheel quite a bit, play with the boost settings and fit a decent FMI. Look into fitting a 16v head from a GTi-6 and fabrication manifolds etc to suit.
With the suspension, you can adjust the stiffness of a sphere aby altering the size of the hole the fluid flows through. Bigger hole= softer springing. If you want a smaller hole, try a sphere from another model which uses different pressures. For example, to stiffen a BX 16v for track use, you can fit XM front spheres to the back of a BX and Xantia Hydractive ones to the front, but thats another (dull) topic!) Around a track or similar, a small pocket rocket screamer hot hatch will probably be more of a weapon if it's been setup for the track. But that's missing the beauty of the Activa, it can nearly be as good yet ride very smootly and comfortably on the road.
Anyway, sifting through all the rumours and pub ammo, I'd say no it's not a good car for that, but yes it's an awesome car. Shame they struggle to better 20mpg!
Had an Activa briefly as a company car many moons ago .....
Brilliant when working I thought but the most unreliable car I ever had the misfortune to.....
going down the motorway the entire electrical and suspension system shut down including the car lowering to the floor nearly all at 80mph it scared the bejesus out of me and the quote to repair was £2K on a 2 year old 60k miles car!
needless to say I never saw it again it disappeared to the Boots company fleet in Nottingham !
Brilliant when working I thought but the most unreliable car I ever had the misfortune to.....
going down the motorway the entire electrical and suspension system shut down including the car lowering to the floor nearly all at 80mph it scared the bejesus out of me and the quote to repair was £2K on a 2 year old 60k miles car!
needless to say I never saw it again it disappeared to the Boots company fleet in Nottingham !
Simps said:
Get a Soarer Active instead.
Similar sort of thing, only with the right numbers of cylinders. That and the fact that it isn't french!
Exibit A of why Activas are so cheap Similar sort of thing, only with the right numbers of cylinders. That and the fact that it isn't french!
Keep it up please, majority!Although it's only similar in that it doesn't lean much, the ride control is still springs isn't it?
Edited by Kitchski on Wednesday 3rd November 21:21
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