RE: Driven: Ferrari 458 Italia
Discussion
Streetrod said:
I will admit that I am no fan of the way the 458 looks. I think the front and back half look they were designed by two different committees that never spoke to each other.
But having recently driving one at Silverstone thanks to a mate in the industry I have a few comments to make.
I for one am not celebrating the march of the modern supercar. For me the relationship between man and machine is now clouded behind a raft of electronics and sensors. Are these cars faster? Yes they are but are they more fun? I would say the jury is out on that one.
The Ferrari 458, is a great divers car, but comes with a huge caveat, I will explain based on my recent drive.
Little real skill is required to drive the 458 quickly. Your ham-fisted driving is kept under control by a computer 1000's of times more powerful than the one that put men on the moon. The slower less computer controlled Porsche GT3 RS is actually more fun to drive, just ask Chris Harris from EVO magazine.
The DSG gearbox is an amazing thing to use, but requires no finesse or skill. Yes it is very quick, but that is not the be all and end all. I love being able to use a manual gearbox well and have honed my heal and toe gear changes over the years.
As I said before the 458 is a great car, but to truly find out how interfering the electronics are, switch them off at a track and then try and drive as fast as you were before. Like the Euro fighter jet which is so unstable that it cannot fly without computer assistance, the 458 turns into a complete animal when you turn the electronics off. My lap times at Silverstone dropped by nearly 6 seconds with them off. When you turn them back on again you can really feel them working away in the background. It’s like your inputs are being translated by a committee of computers who then decide ultimately what the car needs to do on your behalf.
I am not being a Luddite here; I know progress has to continue. Cars are becoming quicker, safer and cleaner and that is to be applauded. But as the super car war continues manufactures will have to continue to add more electronics to these cars to stop the less skilled drivers from killing themselves.
The fun I get from driving fast is not about chasing that last 10th of a second here or there but its the feeling and feedback that a car gives me. One of the best drives I ever had was driving a 60's Lotus Elan with about 100bhp. To this day only a few cars I have driven have come close to having steering and feel that was a good as that car.
I am not trying to put the likes of the 458 down, I think it is a landmark car. It just feels like it has it has now turned into a computer game.
So looks aside that is why great as the 458 is it would not have a place in my fantasy garage
But having recently driving one at Silverstone thanks to a mate in the industry I have a few comments to make.
I for one am not celebrating the march of the modern supercar. For me the relationship between man and machine is now clouded behind a raft of electronics and sensors. Are these cars faster? Yes they are but are they more fun? I would say the jury is out on that one.
The Ferrari 458, is a great divers car, but comes with a huge caveat, I will explain based on my recent drive.
Little real skill is required to drive the 458 quickly. Your ham-fisted driving is kept under control by a computer 1000's of times more powerful than the one that put men on the moon. The slower less computer controlled Porsche GT3 RS is actually more fun to drive, just ask Chris Harris from EVO magazine.
The DSG gearbox is an amazing thing to use, but requires no finesse or skill. Yes it is very quick, but that is not the be all and end all. I love being able to use a manual gearbox well and have honed my heal and toe gear changes over the years.
As I said before the 458 is a great car, but to truly find out how interfering the electronics are, switch them off at a track and then try and drive as fast as you were before. Like the Euro fighter jet which is so unstable that it cannot fly without computer assistance, the 458 turns into a complete animal when you turn the electronics off. My lap times at Silverstone dropped by nearly 6 seconds with them off. When you turn them back on again you can really feel them working away in the background. It’s like your inputs are being translated by a committee of computers who then decide ultimately what the car needs to do on your behalf.
I am not being a Luddite here; I know progress has to continue. Cars are becoming quicker, safer and cleaner and that is to be applauded. But as the super car war continues manufactures will have to continue to add more electronics to these cars to stop the less skilled drivers from killing themselves.
The fun I get from driving fast is not about chasing that last 10th of a second here or there but its the feeling and feedback that a car gives me. One of the best drives I ever had was driving a 60's Lotus Elan with about 100bhp. To this day only a few cars I have driven have come close to having steering and feel that was a good as that car.
I am not trying to put the likes of the 458 down, I think it is a landmark car. It just feels like it has it has now turned into a computer game.
So looks aside that is why great as the 458 is it would not have a place in my fantasy garage
This is EXACTLY right (like your comments on the Veyron).
I drove the car and I LOVE the way it looks but I kid you not, it is disappointingly anodyne for a £200K Ferrari. I thought the exhaust note was horribly boomy inside and although it is a VERY serious weapon on the road it's really not much more engaging than a 997 Turbo.
The Scuderia/16M is a far more interesting drive.
Riggers said:
jon- said:
When are they going to invent invisible parking sensors? They ruin the look of
PS: Any more information about the tyres?
Edited by jon- on Wednesday 15th December 09:36
jon- said:
Riggers said:
jon- said:
When are they going to invent invisible parking sensors? They ruin the look of
PS: Any more information about the tyres?
Edited by jon- on Wednesday 15th December 09:36
But then if you're doing more than six or seven tenths on the public road in that car you're really asking for your licence to be removed - or your life, should a tractor pop out of a side road around a blind corner.
As for the wintry bits, it seemed perfectly at home in heavy frost/light snow, with plenty of traction and grip. But then, that might have had just as much to do with the Manettino's ice setting...
Murcielago_Boy said:
Streetrod said:
I will admit that I am no fan of the way the 458 looks. I think the front and back half look they were designed by two different committees that never spoke to each other.
But having recently driving one at Silverstone thanks to a mate in the industry I have a few comments to make.
I for one am not celebrating the march of the modern supercar. For me the relationship between man and machine is now clouded behind a raft of electronics and sensors. Are these cars faster? Yes they are but are they more fun? I would say the jury is out on that one.
The Ferrari 458, is a great divers car, but comes with a huge caveat, I will explain based on my recent drive.
Little real skill is required to drive the 458 quickly. Your ham-fisted driving is kept under control by a computer 1000's of times more powerful than the one that put men on the moon. The slower less computer controlled Porsche GT3 RS is actually more fun to drive, just ask Chris Harris from EVO magazine.
The DSG gearbox is an amazing thing to use, but requires no finesse or skill. Yes it is very quick, but that is not the be all and end all. I love being able to use a manual gearbox well and have honed my heal and toe gear changes over the years.
As I said before the 458 is a great car, but to truly find out how interfering the electronics are, switch them off at a track and then try and drive as fast as you were before. Like the Euro fighter jet which is so unstable that it cannot fly without computer assistance, the 458 turns into a complete animal when you turn the electronics off. My lap times at Silverstone dropped by nearly 6 seconds with them off. When you turn them back on again you can really feel them working away in the background. It’s like your inputs are being translated by a committee of computers who then decide ultimately what the car needs to do on your behalf.
I am not being a Luddite here; I know progress has to continue. Cars are becoming quicker, safer and cleaner and that is to be applauded. But as the super car war continues manufactures will have to continue to add more electronics to these cars to stop the less skilled drivers from killing themselves.
The fun I get from driving fast is not about chasing that last 10th of a second here or there but its the feeling and feedback that a car gives me. One of the best drives I ever had was driving a 60's Lotus Elan with about 100bhp. To this day only a few cars I have driven have come close to having steering and feel that was a good as that car.
I am not trying to put the likes of the 458 down, I think it is a landmark car. It just feels like it has it has now turned into a computer game.
So looks aside that is why great as the 458 is it would not have a place in my fantasy garage
But having recently driving one at Silverstone thanks to a mate in the industry I have a few comments to make.
I for one am not celebrating the march of the modern supercar. For me the relationship between man and machine is now clouded behind a raft of electronics and sensors. Are these cars faster? Yes they are but are they more fun? I would say the jury is out on that one.
The Ferrari 458, is a great divers car, but comes with a huge caveat, I will explain based on my recent drive.
Little real skill is required to drive the 458 quickly. Your ham-fisted driving is kept under control by a computer 1000's of times more powerful than the one that put men on the moon. The slower less computer controlled Porsche GT3 RS is actually more fun to drive, just ask Chris Harris from EVO magazine.
The DSG gearbox is an amazing thing to use, but requires no finesse or skill. Yes it is very quick, but that is not the be all and end all. I love being able to use a manual gearbox well and have honed my heal and toe gear changes over the years.
As I said before the 458 is a great car, but to truly find out how interfering the electronics are, switch them off at a track and then try and drive as fast as you were before. Like the Euro fighter jet which is so unstable that it cannot fly without computer assistance, the 458 turns into a complete animal when you turn the electronics off. My lap times at Silverstone dropped by nearly 6 seconds with them off. When you turn them back on again you can really feel them working away in the background. It’s like your inputs are being translated by a committee of computers who then decide ultimately what the car needs to do on your behalf.
I am not being a Luddite here; I know progress has to continue. Cars are becoming quicker, safer and cleaner and that is to be applauded. But as the super car war continues manufactures will have to continue to add more electronics to these cars to stop the less skilled drivers from killing themselves.
The fun I get from driving fast is not about chasing that last 10th of a second here or there but its the feeling and feedback that a car gives me. One of the best drives I ever had was driving a 60's Lotus Elan with about 100bhp. To this day only a few cars I have driven have come close to having steering and feel that was a good as that car.
I am not trying to put the likes of the 458 down, I think it is a landmark car. It just feels like it has it has now turned into a computer game.
So looks aside that is why great as the 458 is it would not have a place in my fantasy garage
This is EXACTLY right (like your comments on the Veyron).
I drove the car and I LOVE the way it looks but I kid you not, it is disappointingly anodyne for a £200K Ferrari. I thought the exhaust note was horribly boomy inside and although it is a VERY serious weapon on the road it's really not much more engaging than a 997 Turbo.
The Scuderia/16M is a far more interesting drive.
Not entirely sure why, but this car leaves me cold, i just don't "want it" at all. Perhaps it's the knowlege that in a year or so an even faster one will appear, but more likely it's because i think that in the bit of the UK that i drive on/in, it's would be so frustrating to only be able to access the performance for probably 5 sec tops (0-124 in 10, so 0 to jail in about 7 or so......)
probably the ultimate "self control required" car, i'd rather have a 35k caterham, just as quick round a track, just as fun, and during the week i'll just drive my diesel wagon around. Blimey, i must be getting old ;-)
probably the ultimate "self control required" car, i'd rather have a 35k caterham, just as quick round a track, just as fun, and during the week i'll just drive my diesel wagon around. Blimey, i must be getting old ;-)
Max_Torque said:
Probably the ultimate "self control required" car, i'd rather have a 35k caterham, just as quick round a track, just as fun, and during the week i'll just drive my diesel wagon around. Blimey, i must be getting old ;-)
Despite loving the 458, I do know what you're saying - you just can't access the upper reaches of its ability on the public road, and that is a problem.That's why a £1500 MX-5 on dodgy Chinese tyres can be darn-well near as satisfying to drive down a favourite road - you can get closer to the limit wihout risking your licence. And it wouldn't matter so much if you did end up in a hedge...
Max_Torque said:
Not entirely sure why, but this car leaves me cold, i just don't "want it" at all. Perhaps it's the knowlege that in a year or so an even faster one will appear, but more likely it's because i think that in the bit of the UK that i drive on/in, it's would be so frustrating to only be able to access the performance for probably 5 sec tops (0-124 in 10, so 0 to jail in about 7 or so......)
probably the ultimate "self control required" car, i'd rather have a 35k caterham, just as quick round a track, just as fun, and during the week i'll just drive my diesel wagon around. Blimey, i must be getting old ;-)
Yep, sensations of speed is where it is at.probably the ultimate "self control required" car, i'd rather have a 35k caterham, just as quick round a track, just as fun, and during the week i'll just drive my diesel wagon around. Blimey, i must be getting old ;-)
I don't get why people want a car like this to feel slow, quiet and comfortable, they are all things that can mask speed and make you NEED to go faster, and so need power to achieve the scary acceleration.
Still very nice I'm sure, but I can see why 911 GT3's keep winning ECOTY
Dave
Don't get me wrong, i think it is wonderful that cars like the 458 exist, they bring a lot of happiness to a lot of people, young (and sometimes old) boys smile, laugh and point at them in the street, just seeing and hearing one makes you feel a bit better, but (and it's a big but) to actually own one, for me, i'm not so sure.
I think a Daniel Craig 007 style "reboot" of the supercar franchise could perhaps be in order, keep the drama, the "wow" factor, but make them more accessable, less "total performance" oriented. (not an easy task by any means!)
I also think that for the "Man in the street" a lot of what is projected by "supercars" is in fact nothing to do with the car itself. As someone lucky enough to work in the industry, and having driven just about everything fast with 4 wheels, 458 excluded so far ;-( after a while, the car isn't actually any different to any other car really.
Without the "jet set" lifestyle to go with it, a 458 drives to Tescos just like a BMW 3 series, so "wanting or dreaming about" a 458 would mean that simply having a 458, but with the rest of your life unchanged, could be a massive disapointment!
I think a Daniel Craig 007 style "reboot" of the supercar franchise could perhaps be in order, keep the drama, the "wow" factor, but make them more accessable, less "total performance" oriented. (not an easy task by any means!)
I also think that for the "Man in the street" a lot of what is projected by "supercars" is in fact nothing to do with the car itself. As someone lucky enough to work in the industry, and having driven just about everything fast with 4 wheels, 458 excluded so far ;-( after a while, the car isn't actually any different to any other car really.
Without the "jet set" lifestyle to go with it, a 458 drives to Tescos just like a BMW 3 series, so "wanting or dreaming about" a 458 would mean that simply having a 458, but with the rest of your life unchanged, could be a massive disapointment!
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 15th December 15:46
Streetrod said:
stuff about electronics
Short story: I complained to the ASA a few months ago about Mercedes including 'ABS' in an advert about 'innovation', next to pre-safe and other proprietary technology. Merc have always gotten away with people believing they invented ABS and Bosch are never mentioned. Being a Brummie this has always irked me, the old Jensen factory ain't far away.The complaint was investigated and Merc managed to weasel their way out of it by saying that previous systems were crap and that they had the first fully digital system, which was superior and thus counted as innovation. They also claimed that the Jensen FF wasn't a production car! No objectivity as to whether it was better (stopping distance data etc.), simply "digital is better than analogue".
And that, I am afraid, is how the layman (in this case the ASA) sees it. Which is why 90% of F430 customers spec'd an F1 box and is why people are impressed when their car comes with a host of abbreviations, even if they don't know what they do or how to get the most out of it.
I'm not fussed about electronics but obviously there has to be a tangible benefit in *some way*. People have different preferences, of course, but personally speaking if I wanted to simply go for a drive on a Sunday morning as a minimum my car would have three pedals!
Edited by LongLiveTazio on Wednesday 15th December 16:30
I think we have reached a tipping point in the car industry when manufactures seem to be adding more and more gadgets just for gadgets sake. It’s almost as if they have run out of ideas on how to market or distinguish their cars from one other. Add to that the ever more evil eye of EU and US safety and emissions regulations and we now have a breed of cars more closely associated with a Cray supercomputer than anything else.
I was pleased to hear that Lamborghini had set out its stall and announced they would no longer be chasing top speeds but will concentrate on lightness and acceleration. This will allow them to keep the V10 and V12 engines but also offer lower emissions.
The 458 has a succumbed to an over reliance on computers.
Would Ferrari customers buy a sub 1200kg NA enginned 458 replacement with a minimum or electronics, conventional spring/damper units with a mechanical diff and iron brakes, i.e. an upmarket Elise? Would this be seen as a step backwards? Or is Ferrari duty bound to constantly push the performance envelop at what ever cost to eke out that extra tenth here or there.
I can’t believe I am saying this as a dyed in the wool petrol head, but when is enough enough?
I was pleased to hear that Lamborghini had set out its stall and announced they would no longer be chasing top speeds but will concentrate on lightness and acceleration. This will allow them to keep the V10 and V12 engines but also offer lower emissions.
The 458 has a succumbed to an over reliance on computers.
Would Ferrari customers buy a sub 1200kg NA enginned 458 replacement with a minimum or electronics, conventional spring/damper units with a mechanical diff and iron brakes, i.e. an upmarket Elise? Would this be seen as a step backwards? Or is Ferrari duty bound to constantly push the performance envelop at what ever cost to eke out that extra tenth here or there.
I can’t believe I am saying this as a dyed in the wool petrol head, but when is enough enough?
Edited by Streetrod on Wednesday 15th December 19:03
Agree that modern supercars don't generally make you work at being a better, smoother, more sensitive and skilled driver. Perhaps the way 964RSs and in particular 993RSs have gone up in value in the last couple of years means that more people are realising that those cars were as good as it gets....
jon- said:
When are they going to invent invisible parking sensors? They ruin the look of theany car.
They have. My old S2 Exige had a rear parking system installed (it was a subaru system and the Dealer had both Lotus and Subaru franchises).The sensors were stuck to the inside of the boot and worked through the fibreglass so no unsightly nipples on the rear clam.
I suspect the fibreglass needs to be pretty thin (as it was on the Exige) to work so doubt it would work on more substantial cars.
Oh and I'd rather a GT3RS as well.
Edited by Davey S2 on Wednesday 15th December 18:16
I agree. I will make a prediction. We have come to the end of the analogue car generation, digital now rules. In a few years people will realise what they have lost so will seek out the cars they remember from their youth, as a consequence the last great analogue cars will shoot up in value.
We are seeing it now at the top end with Zonda's leaping in value whilst Veyron's drop like a stone
We are seeing it now at the top end with Zonda's leaping in value whilst Veyron's drop like a stone
It looks rather tasty. Not sure I'd shell out 12k on that paint job (if I were lucky enough to ever be able to spec a 458 that is) mind....
Sounds like it is a good car to drive quickly if you don't want to have to be a good driver, which is probably good news for most of the population. I guess safety dictates that computers drive the car, the driver just points and shoots.
Still, if I could have one, I think I'd have an F430 Spider, just pips it on the looks front IMHO.
Sounds like it is a good car to drive quickly if you don't want to have to be a good driver, which is probably good news for most of the population. I guess safety dictates that computers drive the car, the driver just points and shoots.
Still, if I could have one, I think I'd have an F430 Spider, just pips it on the looks front IMHO.
Streetrod said:
I agree. I will make a prediction. We have come to the end of the analogue car generation, digital now rules. In a few years people will realise what they have lost so will seek out the cars they remember from their youth, as a consequence the last great analogue cars will shoot up in value.
Agreed. Apparently the new Murcielago wont be offered with a manual 'box.It seems only Porsche are keeping the manual for their performance cars but I suspect the next generation of RS models will have PDK. I only hope that they have it as an option and keep the manual as standard.
Davey S2 said:
Streetrod said:
I agree. I will make a prediction. We have come to the end of the analogue car generation, digital now rules. In a few years people will realise what they have lost so will seek out the cars they remember from their youth, as a consequence the last great analogue cars will shoot up in value.
Agreed. Apparently the new Murcielago wont be offered with a manual 'box.It seems only Porsche are keeping the manual for their performance cars but I suspect the next generation of RS models will have PDK. I only hope that they have it as an option and keep the manual as standard.
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