996 GT3 FS

Author
Discussion

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
Unprecedented price for a 6gt3.2.

But in my mind, still CHEAP for the experience you get, RELATIVE to many other cars which now cost 3 or 4 times the price (993rs, 964rs, 993tt, 3.6t, 360cs etc.)

Molly is also right. The last mk1 sold was mid 50's. The last batch of RS sold were around 80k. That was in a very different climate though !

Edited by jackal on Thursday 22 May 10:04

ClarkPB

818 posts

199 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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thegoat46 said:
No Clark my frustration is with the Internet and owners trying it on! Of course you think 80 grand for a .2 gt3 is reasonable. Owners tryin it on are just ruining the enjoyment for us genuine petrolheads beer you really think this car is worth similar to a 997 rs or a 997 gen 1 laugh I'm just stating the truth.
Not once did I say I thought it was worth £80k?

A well spec'd,mint Club Sport could be worth £55/60k though winkbiggrin

boxsey

3,574 posts

209 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
This thread is yet another sad reflection that the PH Porsche forum is now preoccupied with discussing present and future values. Topics about owning and driving them are now sadly few and far between.

MDahmen

6,895 posts

176 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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For ages I was thinking I'll have to buy a RHD GT3 due to prices being much lower than LHD (and not being willing to pay / able to afford the mark up) - seems this situation has largely reversed now, so for enthusiasts it is maybe not all bad news. A lot more choice on the continent than in the UK. (look for the silver lining bla bla etc)

Dblue

3,252 posts

199 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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langdale said:
Pocty that's quote a collection of parts. Can I ask which forum ? Tks
That's just a meaningless list which if any body could really be bothered to research would turn out to be largely identical in spec to the equivalent in the regular GT3.Listing the graphics as separate parts is nonsense and clearly done to make a point but it smacks of protesting too much. They are 99% the same car.

But, who knows what drives this mania. A Green RS is different to a Black or Orange one in only 1 respect and that seems to be worth 15 - 20k all of a sudden!!!

Lunacy.

ClarkPB

818 posts

199 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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Just to confirm,this £80k advert IS a joke anyway is it not?

langdale

290 posts

135 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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Dblue said:
That's just a meaningless list which if any body could really be bothered to research would turn out to be largely identical in spec to the equivalent in the regular GT3.Listing the graphics as separate parts is nonsense and clearly done to make a point but it smacks of protesting too much. They are 99% the same car.

But, who knows what drives this mania. A Green RS is different to a Black or Orange one in only 1 respect and that seems to be worth 15 - 20k all of a sudden!!!

Lunacy.
yeah you have a point. I was very torn between the 996 C/S and the RS I eventually bought

Sexual Chocolate

1,583 posts

143 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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JZM had a mint one (996 GT3.2) only 3 months ago for 45K. Are you seriously suggesting that in 3 months time they have jumped up 10K?

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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boxsey said:
This thread is yet another sad reflection that the PH Porsche forum is now preoccupied with discussing present and future values. Topics about owning and driving them are now sadly few and far between.
I agree to an extent, but its at the heart of ownership and vitally important!

I want to buy a GT3 so I can ENJOY it properly as the good maker intended. But I have missed the boat. These value rises have now taken them from my reach.

So I cant talk about owning and driving them!! Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, it is what it is and its my own stupid fault, especially as I was one of the ones saying they would rise.

Its also causing owners to hold on to them and put them in heated garages as they are st scared of affecting these values!

The same is happening to air cooled cars as I am sure you know.

Pip1968

1,346 posts

203 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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Fingers crossed they will not remain outside enthusiasts reach. Let's look at prices again at the end of the track season when the 991 is fully on line. Whilst it is clearly a 'different' car (see: no stick :-( ) a lot of Porsche owners just want to get the newest thing out and are not worried about driver involvement (see also: can of worms).

I am still hankering after a 997 GT3 RS. Why hasn't the black/orange at Amari not sold? I assume it has a checkered history.



Pip

pete a

3,799 posts

183 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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Pip1968 said:
Fingers crossed they will not remain outside enthusiasts reach. Let's look at prices again at the end of the track season when the 991 is fully on line. Whilst it is clearly a 'different' car (see: no stick :-( ) a lot of Porsche owners just want to get the newest thing out and are not worried about driver involvement (see also: can of worms).

I am still hankering after a 997 GT3 RS. Why hasn't the black/orange at Amari not sold? I assume it has a checkered history.



Pip
i think if they ripped out the non standard nav and steering wheel and got the car back to standard it would go quite quickly.

lemmingjames

7,434 posts

203 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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ive decided that i want an F40 now, do you think if i stand outside a dealership with one in throwing a tantrum, theyll lower the price to what i want it to be?

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
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Dblue said:
I'm not sure thats really true. Yes there are quite a few unique parts , especially in the suspension but it runs the same engine and its fundamentally a 996 GT3 , as is this car and the Mark 1. There's potential for the 96RS to go stratospheric but its not sufficiently different to other GT3s to have the rarity value of the earlier RSs , IMHO.
Wrong. Different cylinder heads on the 996RS engine. RS produces approx 15PS more on the dyno - and the difference is even greater when moving as the RS has a 'ram air' duct on the engine cover.

Porsche: "The engine of the 911 GT3 is used in the 911 GT3 RS in model year 2004. The geometry of the inlet ports in the cylinder head have been optimised. This resulted in a new engine type, which for this vehicle is designated M79/80."

There are many differences from a GT3 clubsport - which is 5% heavier than an RS. Different roll cage, springs, dampers, wheel carriers, adjustable suspension arms (nb standard GT3 shares Boxster parts), single mass flywheel, various carbon fibre parts, etc, etc.






lemmingjames

7,434 posts

203 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
BUt all stuff you could in theory do to a normal '3 though?

Dblue

3,252 posts

199 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
agtlaw said:
Dblue said:
I'm not sure thats really true. Yes there are quite a few unique parts , especially in the suspension but it runs the same engine and its fundamentally a 996 GT3 , as is this car and the Mark 1. There's potential for the 96RS to go stratospheric but its not sufficiently different to other GT3s to have the rarity value of the earlier RSs , IMHO.
Wrong. Different cylinder heads on the 996RS engine. RS produces approx 15PS more on the dyno - and the difference is even greater when moving as the RS has a 'ram air' duct on the engine cover.

Porsche: "The engine of the 911 GT3 is used in the 911 GT3 RS in model year 2004. The geometry of the inlet ports in the cylinder head have been optimised. This resulted in a new engine type, which for this vehicle is designated M79/80."

There are many differences from a GT3 clubsport - which is 5% heavier than an RS. Different roll cage, springs, dampers, wheel carriers, adjustable suspension arms (nb standard GT3 shares Boxster parts), single mass flywheel, various carbon fibre parts, etc, etc.
The changes are not night and day different. The engine is the same quoted output (381PS ) and , although they certainly were stronger on a dyno, thats what Porsche claimed at the time. The weight is within 25kg of a clubsport isn't it? 5% is 65kg odd, pretty sure the RS and the GT3 are closer than that.

All the suspension changes were homologation parts and adjustment is different but a stock GT3 can be adjusted pretty much the same. Wheel carriers are different but wheels are the same, brakes the same. C/F Wing and Bonnet, and Lexan screen are unique but its body in white, wheelbase and track are all the same.

997RS has as many alterations to a stock GT3 of the time but i'd never claim it was hugely different to the standard car in terms of driving it.

IMHO a gen2 997 3.8 RS is more different to a stock GT3 than the 996 was. But I'm way off the point and I love em so don't think for a minute I am trying to undermine how special they are.

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
Dblue said:
The changes are not night and day different. The engine is the same quoted output (381PS ) and , although they certainly were stronger on a dyno, thats what Porsche claimed at the time. The weight is within 25kg of a clubsport isn't it? 5% is 65kg odd, pretty sure the RS and the GT3 are closer than that.

All the suspension changes were homologation parts and adjustment is different but a stock GT3 can be adjusted pretty much the same. Wheel carriers are different but wheels are the same, brakes the same. C/F Wing and Bonnet, and Lexan screen are unique but its body in white, wheelbase and track are all the same.
Porsche released the GT3 engine figures for the RS which has a different engine. They did the same thing with the 3.2 ClubSport in 1984. Andreas Preuninger gives a good explanation in a contemporary interview. I may post this later if i can find it.

I'd have to check the maths and it depends on the method of measurement (DIN or otherwise). Again, i can check later but 5% is my memory of the figure quoted in my (extremely rare) 996 GT3 RS sales brochure.

That isn't right about suspension adjustment. A GT3 has linear springs. RS springs are progressive. Thats a physical difference. The RS dampers may be the same but they are, from memory 15% stiffer on an RS. I don't know if you can adjust this on a GT3 damper. The front RS coffin arm is split in two - so shims can be inserted to adjust the camber - the same part on a GT3 is an unadjustable one piece part from a Boxster.

PJI

306 posts

205 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
You lot lighten up!

Took the wife around Oulton Park last month in my 996 GT3 (an owner that uses his!!!!) I though she enjoyed it but looking in to her eyes on the video I'm not so sure!

Enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmmLnFZ8P3s&fe...

PJI

PS Its only done 17000 miles anyone interested!!!!!

Tony 1234

3,465 posts

226 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
PJI said:
You lot lighten up!

Took the wife around Oulton Park last month in my 996 GT3 (an owner that uses his!!!!) I though she enjoyed it but looking in to her eyes on the video I'm not so sure!

Enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmmLnFZ8P3s&fe...

PJI

PS Its only done 17000 miles anyone interested!!!!!
.."can you keep it off the curb"...hehe smile

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
Dblue said:
That's just a meaningless list which if any body could really be bothered to research would turn out to be largely identical in spec to the equivalent in the regular GT3.Listing the graphics as separate parts is nonsense and clearly done to make a point but it smacks of protesting too much. They are 99% the same car.
Maybe you should have bothered to do some research?

The single-mass flywheel pares a significant nine kilograms from the weight of the GT3 RSs drive, explains engineer, Andreas Preuninger, project leader for the RS programme. We worked our way through the whole powertrain to see where we could save further weight, help gases flow more efficiently in and out of the engine, and finish up any tasks that were in the pipeline when the last two GT3 versions went to production.
The next item to be sorted was the cylinder-heads, he continues. These also have reshaped intake and exhaust ports for race homologation, although the exhaust system remains unchanged. Tappets remain hydraulic like the normal GT3s.
Critical to the whole mix is the ECU remapping. Most people in the chip tuning business do not realise it, but a lighter flywheel means that the fuelling and ignition can be much more aggressive on full throttle to take advantage of the dynamics of an engine that can now rev up faster," he explains.
The counterpoint is that we have to be very careful
with the fuel and ignition settings at small throttle openings, so that the car is not a pig to drive when you are parking or moving slowly in town. This is partly an issue of being able to get the airflow working properly at low speeds with small throttle openings.
Being able to rev higher helps as well, and the rev limit is raised to 8200rpm. Not many owners have complained about the power output, and on paper, Porsche still claims the same 381bhp at 7300rpm as the standard GT3. In reality, however, Andreas freely admits that the gains from all this work, as measured on Porsches control dyno, showed a jump to nearly 400bhp, possibly a shade more once the engine is properly run in.
Starting at the front, the springs are now progressive, rather than linear, and their stiffness index has been moved up from 40 to 45N/mm. The dampers are uprated to match the new spring rates, but they are not actually much stiffer, since simply reducing the weight of the car by 50kg increases the relative spring and damper ratings, and the Pirelli Corsa tyres have stiffer sidewalls.
We tried various different settings but in the end, the basic ones proved to be the best compromise, Andreas tells us. They end up somewhere between 10 and 15 percent stiffer than the normal GT3 in bounce and rebound.
The wheel carriers are totally redesigned to make the most of the improved dynamic camber control that has resulted from the new suspension mounting points. The Uniballs in the front end are now adjustable, as on the rear, and you can turn the suspension legs through 120 degrees to get more negative camber. Of course, this only applies to racecars, as you really would not want to run four degrees, or more, negative camber on a road car. The sum total of this work delivers better control and reduced bump-steer tendencies.
Andreas explains that the vast amount of experience Porsches racing department has gained in competition with the GT3, highlighted the fact that the 996 suspension configuration tends to exaggerate bump steer, the lower the ride height gets. The control arms, formerly adjustable at the rear only, are now adjustable at both ends of the car. Being lower, the racecars are obviously worse than road cars in this respect, so Porsche had no alternative but to carry out these changes. And, of course, the GT3 RS road car benefits from these race-led modifications and is 3mm lower than a regular GT3, front and rear.
For road use, the adjustable anti-roll bars are set to position three out of four in front, and two out of four at the rear on the normal GT3 RS. The even more focused Club Sport version, which comes with a full roll-cage (rear section installed at the factory and the front part delivered to the dealer with the car), gets position four in front and three at the rear for track use, along with slightly different camber and toe settings.
The brakes are the same as the regular car, with the
option of PCCB ceramics. The brake cooling ducts are a different design, although that has more to do with the new wheel carrier shape than anything else. The alloy axle struts were also redesigned because of the new wheel carriers.
The bodyshell is standard GT3 but with some modifications to the sheet metal aft of the drivers seat. Since there is no rear seat, we removed some of the bits to which you would normally attach the rear seatbelts and some other small parts. We saved about 14kg here, and deleting the side airbags was worth 3kg, the leather trim around 4kg, Andreas tells us.
The Kevlar bonnet saved another 8kg and a 2kg saving was found in the larger carbonfibre rear wing. This is just like the one on the Cup car and delivers 35kg ofdownforce at 125mph [200km/h], he says. In wind tunnel testing, the car showed zero lift on the front axle and 5kg downforce at the rear, which means that the rear wing counters the 30kg of lift induced by the rest of the car.
If you look under the front of the rear wing, you will notice ram air ducts for the engine bay. According to Andreas, these force cooling air into the intake with 15- 18Mb of pressure at 300km/h (187mph), and this is enough to create an additional 15bhp. That extra 15bhp cannot be homologated, though, since the official engine output figures are certified on a dyno!
The front cooler arrangement takes a leaf from the GT2s book and the radiator is angled so that air enters the nose from below, blows through the radiator and upwards in front of the bonnets leading edge. This in
itself creates 3-4kg of downforce on the nose.
The businesslike cabin of the GT3 RS has a unique dashboard without a glovebox, and this alone saves 6kg. Ironically, though, right-hand-drive cars got a normal dashboard, because only 140 cars were built. However, the right-hand-drive ones had a smaller 64-litre fuel
tank, so they ended up lighter, anyhow.
The polycarbonate rear window saves a further 2kg
and the carbon mirrors probably only a couple of grams over the stock glassfibre ones. The kerb weight of a GT3 RS Club Sport with its fire extinguisher system, rollcage, preparation for ignition-kill switch and a full fuel tank, is 1360kg. The optional PCCB brakes save a further 17kg.
The GT3 RS was only available in white, with Mexico Blue or Indian Red shades used for the decals along the





agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Thursday 22nd May 2014
quotequote all
PCCB was a 5k option - see below.

By way of follow up, the RS brochure says 50kg less than a GT3 ClubSport and 4% better power to weight ratio.