996 targa problems
Discussion
Hi,
I have a leaky 996 targa. Especially in the weather a week or so ago.
Looks to be one or more of the rear drains. There are 2 each side. One from the roof channel and one from underneath the hatch seal. Where do they both route to outside? There looks to be one behind the heat shield. Where is the other one?
Sadly the roof decided to stick a while back and one of the cables slipped a couple of teeth. Now it doesn't quite lift fully on one side. Tried taking off the motors and persuading it to lift to the top on that side. But no joy. I am tempted to wind it half bay back and do the same again. But worry about unsynching the motors. Has anyone had any luck solving that problem DIY?
Finally... is there a good online resource which covers this in detail? I have seen some 993 stuff but they are quitea different beast....
One drain is in the wheel arch the other in the boot but its unual for them to block .. just blow down the tubes or put an airline down them , that will clear them.
It depends on where the leak is as to whats wrong , there are several places ..
If the water is in the back corners where the tubes are it can be the tubes , the connection the roof tube goes onto ( its silconed on and has 2 8mm nuts holding it ) or it can be the roof seal .. water can sit there and slowly detatch it.
If the water is under rear seat cusion it can be the rear leak working forward or the front glass seal ... sit in the rear seats and look in the gap between the 2 sections of fabric.Theres a tube there each side , made of rubber that drains water into the side channels.It can split or break off , a new frame seal is req then.
Cables cant just slip without a problem , my guess would be its got stiff in the past and has been lubricated to get it to work , it slipped when it was stiff.Unfortunatly lubricating the cables will make them worse in the long run , dirt collects and will totally jam them , when installed they have to be totally clean and stay that way.
re syncing the cables is normally done with the roof out , the tension with the glass and frame fitted would in my opion make it far to tight to move anything.
To replace the roof seal its a roof out job , to replace the front seal its frame and glass out.
To give you an idear of costs ... to replace cables and roof seal is £500 in parts and 2 days labour at what ever rate your garage is but make sure your garage knows how to do them .. its not an easy job !
A 993 targa is a totally different system , ive had a look but cant find much info online about them to give to you .. what i know about them is what ive learnt by doing them so again ive got nothing to send you.
It depends on where the leak is as to whats wrong , there are several places ..
If the water is in the back corners where the tubes are it can be the tubes , the connection the roof tube goes onto ( its silconed on and has 2 8mm nuts holding it ) or it can be the roof seal .. water can sit there and slowly detatch it.
If the water is under rear seat cusion it can be the rear leak working forward or the front glass seal ... sit in the rear seats and look in the gap between the 2 sections of fabric.Theres a tube there each side , made of rubber that drains water into the side channels.It can split or break off , a new frame seal is req then.
Cables cant just slip without a problem , my guess would be its got stiff in the past and has been lubricated to get it to work , it slipped when it was stiff.Unfortunatly lubricating the cables will make them worse in the long run , dirt collects and will totally jam them , when installed they have to be totally clean and stay that way.
re syncing the cables is normally done with the roof out , the tension with the glass and frame fitted would in my opion make it far to tight to move anything.
To replace the roof seal its a roof out job , to replace the front seal its frame and glass out.
To give you an idear of costs ... to replace cables and roof seal is £500 in parts and 2 days labour at what ever rate your garage is but make sure your garage knows how to do them .. its not an easy job !
A 993 targa is a totally different system , ive had a look but cant find much info online about them to give to you .. what i know about them is what ive learnt by doing them so again ive got nothing to send you.
Edited by Demort on Thursday 21st January 19:33
Thanks for that.
Where is the main drain in the rear wheel arch? Is it towards the front of the arch behind the plastic panel?
I usually park under a silver birch and they drop tons of little flat seeds which could block anything.
I first noticed the water in the rear passenger seat. If I left the seat back folded down there were some drips ( but hardly a deluge )
That was the small rubber roof drain near the B pillar you mention. it was ripped where it is cable tied to the bracket.
I trimmed it and stuck a short plastic pipe up the middle and cable tied that in. Looks like it drains properly into the channel now.
Sadly that didn't stop the water on the seat. I pulled out all the soundproofing and carpet at the back to have a good look. It was all very wet. So I think it is a leak right back there somewhere.
I am going to have to put a hose on it this weekend. Meanwhile it lives in the garage.
I am sure the mechanism wasn't perfect before it slipped. The metal drive wheels on the motors have worn a little but no broken teeth and - and it mostly works OK.
I read about someone pulling 993 motors out and then moving the whole roof by hand and lubricating the cables . I suspect you can't manually slide the 996 roof from fully closed as it slides near vertically for the last inch or so. Maybe I could take some brave pills and have a go from fully open.
Probably worth trying something more drastic as a last resort before spending serious money (eg £500 plus 2 days...)
Nice car otherwise though so might be worth doing.
To be perfectly honest ive removed , stripped and rebuilt 15 targa roofs 996/997 and never needed to find the actual exits of the drains pipes , i just put an airline down them.
The drain is going to be in the rear section of the wheel arch from the pipe position and the other i think is in the boot aperture top left , so the bit the boot sits on .
Basically if you can blow down it with your mouth its going to be fine , ive never seen the pipes split before.
Your more likely to have a blockage in the plastic cover the channel drain goes onto , thats a bit harder to clear as removeing it is a bit of a mission and it HAS to be siliconed in the right places or it will leak. How about finding some tube to connect onto that cover and blowing up that or .. take car to a petrol station and use the tyre machine to blow out tubes and covers at the same time.
The front broken tube is a clever repair to be honest .. but .. i can see a problem , your going to hate me for this ! the tube when the roof is opened is pushed into a Z shape , its then squashed totally flat , trust me if you see it in operation your wouldn,t belive it could survive. Where im going with this is i think when you open and close the roof a few times it will just rip it off.Try it and let me know though please as any susccessfull repair is always usefull to know and ive had to replace many front seals for this problem and it would be nice to be able to offer a cheap solution if possible.
The metal wheels on the drive motors have a slight curve in the middle , that might be what you are seeing and its perfectly normal .. not worn at all .. and the motors are very rarely a problem .. its always cables and linkage jamming.
Ill describe how i set up the cables with the roof out and its upto you if you want to try it in situe but i would struggle doing this in the car......
I have the roof cassete removed and upside down on a ramp roof in closed position .... disconnect the front seal drain tubes by cutting the small cable ties each side and pull out of the retaining plastic bracket , remove the snall C shaped clip holding the blinds to the mechanism , gently pull the cover out to detatch it from the mechanism and slide the cover back on each side.Dont go all the way to the back as it will detach at the rear end if you go all the way.
remove both motors.
Undo the x4 allen key bolts holding the roof frame to the mechanism each side , (use the tools in the back cover) and pull each mechanism all the way back untill it stops .. it hits a small rivet close to the back of the roof frame and will stop at that point.
Reconnect motors and slowly move them forward to the front frame so you can reconnect the allen key bolts , i use the manuel way on the motors as roof is out and no power PLUS its slower and you can see if anything catches as it goes forward , mainly the frame seal tubes.
You will have the roof pushing down as not upside down as i do them so may need someone to push the glass up to get the mechaism under the frame and into the right position.
This will get the cables alighned to within a tooth which is fine , porsche issued a bullitin years ago basically getting the roof cables to be slightly out to stop rattles and this procedue works fine .. the porsche way is to make up wood blocks and measure various bits and is a pain .. this works fine.
If you really want to do this ( to be fair if your confident i dont see why not ) id rather you could mail me or ill be on the phone if needed .. so let me know if so and ill mail you my number.
as always this is advise and its upto you how you use it ( thats the legal bit
lol )
I did think of just disconnecting the mechanism on the bad side and trying to pull it forward .. it might be worth a try but as with all of this it depends on how tight the cables are .. and there pretty dam tight on a roof with new cables.
i think thats covered it all .. just taken 15 mins to write this lot lol , good luck either way.
The drain is going to be in the rear section of the wheel arch from the pipe position and the other i think is in the boot aperture top left , so the bit the boot sits on .
Basically if you can blow down it with your mouth its going to be fine , ive never seen the pipes split before.
Your more likely to have a blockage in the plastic cover the channel drain goes onto , thats a bit harder to clear as removeing it is a bit of a mission and it HAS to be siliconed in the right places or it will leak. How about finding some tube to connect onto that cover and blowing up that or .. take car to a petrol station and use the tyre machine to blow out tubes and covers at the same time.
The front broken tube is a clever repair to be honest .. but .. i can see a problem , your going to hate me for this ! the tube when the roof is opened is pushed into a Z shape , its then squashed totally flat , trust me if you see it in operation your wouldn,t belive it could survive. Where im going with this is i think when you open and close the roof a few times it will just rip it off.Try it and let me know though please as any susccessfull repair is always usefull to know and ive had to replace many front seals for this problem and it would be nice to be able to offer a cheap solution if possible.
The metal wheels on the drive motors have a slight curve in the middle , that might be what you are seeing and its perfectly normal .. not worn at all .. and the motors are very rarely a problem .. its always cables and linkage jamming.
Ill describe how i set up the cables with the roof out and its upto you if you want to try it in situe but i would struggle doing this in the car......
I have the roof cassete removed and upside down on a ramp roof in closed position .... disconnect the front seal drain tubes by cutting the small cable ties each side and pull out of the retaining plastic bracket , remove the snall C shaped clip holding the blinds to the mechanism , gently pull the cover out to detatch it from the mechanism and slide the cover back on each side.Dont go all the way to the back as it will detach at the rear end if you go all the way.
remove both motors.
Undo the x4 allen key bolts holding the roof frame to the mechanism each side , (use the tools in the back cover) and pull each mechanism all the way back untill it stops .. it hits a small rivet close to the back of the roof frame and will stop at that point.
Reconnect motors and slowly move them forward to the front frame so you can reconnect the allen key bolts , i use the manuel way on the motors as roof is out and no power PLUS its slower and you can see if anything catches as it goes forward , mainly the frame seal tubes.
You will have the roof pushing down as not upside down as i do them so may need someone to push the glass up to get the mechaism under the frame and into the right position.
This will get the cables alighned to within a tooth which is fine , porsche issued a bullitin years ago basically getting the roof cables to be slightly out to stop rattles and this procedue works fine .. the porsche way is to make up wood blocks and measure various bits and is a pain .. this works fine.
If you really want to do this ( to be fair if your confident i dont see why not ) id rather you could mail me or ill be on the phone if needed .. so let me know if so and ill mail you my number.
as always this is advise and its upto you how you use it ( thats the legal bit
lol )I did think of just disconnecting the mechanism on the bad side and trying to pull it forward .. it might be worth a try but as with all of this it depends on how tight the cables are .. and there pretty dam tight on a roof with new cables.
i think thats covered it all .. just taken 15 mins to write this lot lol , good luck either way.
Well I just stuck a hose pipe on it and recreated the rain of the last few weeks.
In those circumstances it is leaking pretty badly from above where I repaired it. Dripping on the seat - plus I guess running down to the back without being in the drain channel.
I suppose it isn't the greatest design in the world and it is getting on a bit, plus my pipe wont bend as easily as the original so a bit more pressure on the remaining rubber...
I think I am just postponing the inevitable playing with it and I might as well bite the bullet.
If it is just from the front frame seal then the roof cassette will not need to be removed so thats good news , bad news is its still approx £500 to have that replaced.
If your going for the total strip and cables + front seal replaced its about $650 parts and probably still 2 days labour as with the roof removed the front sill is easily changed in an hour or so.
If your going for the total strip and cables + front seal replaced its about $650 parts and probably still 2 days labour as with the roof removed the front sill is easily changed in an hour or so.
Replaced my bodge length of pipe (which matched the internal diameter of the original rubber pipe ) with a length of shrink wrap ( which shrunk to the external diameter) today.
Shrunk it up against the original rubber at the top and a short length of stiff pipe at the bottom.
That folds up nicely and doesn't put any force on the rubber above it.
It appears to have stopped it leaking.
Still a stop gap though.
Any recommendations for getting someone to do the job properly?
@Demort - I tried to PM you but not sure if it went through.
I certainly didn't get the copy it said it was sending me!
I tryed to PM you as well .. dont seem to work so Ive added my works website to my profile , ill leave it there for a couple of days to give you a chance to get it.
I dont normally have it listed as i like to give advise but dont want to be seen as touting for work.
If you can phone and ask for Iain next week i can give you some options and depending on where you live see if i can find a garage close enough to you.
the trouble is very few garages will touch these , even OPC tend not to want to get involved and will quote silly prices.
I dont normally have it listed as i like to give advise but dont want to be seen as touting for work.
If you can phone and ask for Iain next week i can give you some options and depending on where you live see if i can find a garage close enough to you.
the trouble is very few garages will touch these , even OPC tend not to want to get involved and will quote silly prices.
Thanks for that. I have got your number if you want to remove the link again.
Would have been very convenient for me 20 years ago - less so nowadays I'm afraid.
Will give you call during the week.
I am sure there are loads of people who would take it on - and sub it out to someone else.
Just need to find out who they would sub it out to!
Well I took a couple of brave pills last night.
I wound the roof half way back and measured the position of the correct side ( it was maybe only 5mm further forward than the bad side)
Then took out the motors and slid the roof backwards and forwards manually a few times and cleaned out the channels.
It slid more smoothly than I was expecting not featherlight but not sticking.
Aligned both sides to the good measurement and put the motors back in and wound the roof forward.
It didn't sound 100% going back but is now very nearly in the right position with just a couple of mm gap.
I will run a bead of silicon round it until the weather is better or I can find someone localish to trust to do it.
At least I can use it in the rain meanwhile.
I wound the roof half way back and measured the position of the correct side ( it was maybe only 5mm further forward than the bad side)
Then took out the motors and slid the roof backwards and forwards manually a few times and cleaned out the channels.
It slid more smoothly than I was expecting not featherlight but not sticking.
Aligned both sides to the good measurement and put the motors back in and wound the roof forward.
It didn't sound 100% going back but is now very nearly in the right position with just a couple of mm gap.
I will run a bead of silicon round it until the weather is better or I can find someone localish to trust to do it.
At least I can use it in the rain meanwhile.
Excellent , well done.
Im guessing it made a bit of a clicking noise or crunching noise as it went forward .. that would be the cables , but at least its closed now and gives you some time to sort it out.
Dont forget you can always phone me if you have any problems in future , often easier to answer on the phone than in a forum
Iain
Im guessing it made a bit of a clicking noise or crunching noise as it went forward .. that would be the cables , but at least its closed now and gives you some time to sort it out.
Dont forget you can always phone me if you have any problems in future , often easier to answer on the phone than in a forum
Iain
Now THAT is an unusual fault !
Normally i would check for fault codes . values and codeing just to see if any thing there.
Ive got a couple of idears , Rear cu (under passenger seat ) might be faulty or have incorrect codeing ,very prone to water leaks so stick your hand under seat and down the n/s/r rear of carpet to see if damp , the alarm cu (pas) codeing might be incorrect , the car may need a vehicle handover , this is all done with a tester .. or theres a wireing fault.
What im thinking is the signal from the interior switch is longer duration than the key fob signal .. basically untill you said about this i would have said it couldn,t happen as a signal to the targa cu / lock is a signal .. i cant see the lock sticking as it would be the same from switch or fob.
But then again it should be a CAN signal and that wouldnt matter .. i need to look at a wiring diagram i think to see how the signals differ.
Can you try to hold the button down on the fob for longer or try a double press , see what happens then.
Also im guessing you are unlocking the tailgate with the doors shut , whilst with the button you have the doors open , air pressure can make a difference so try the fob with the door open , if so its just the lock that needs adjustment as its too tight and to be honest i would probably slacken off the lock a bit anyway.
The angle of the tailgate could possibly make a difference there but i think im over thinking this lol
Unfortunatly this is the kind of fault i really need to look at the car to check various things , but try the bits i mentioned and let me know , ill (when i get time ) find a wireing diagram and have a look to see if i can come up with anything else.
You could try winding out the rubbers on the rear panel that hit against the tailgate , rubber stops , try half a turn on each anti clock wise , last edit .. im at home and shouldn,t be thinking about Porsche faults now
Normally i would check for fault codes . values and codeing just to see if any thing there.
Ive got a couple of idears , Rear cu (under passenger seat ) might be faulty or have incorrect codeing ,very prone to water leaks so stick your hand under seat and down the n/s/r rear of carpet to see if damp , the alarm cu (pas) codeing might be incorrect , the car may need a vehicle handover , this is all done with a tester .. or theres a wireing fault.
What im thinking is the signal from the interior switch is longer duration than the key fob signal .. basically untill you said about this i would have said it couldn,t happen as a signal to the targa cu / lock is a signal .. i cant see the lock sticking as it would be the same from switch or fob.
But then again it should be a CAN signal and that wouldnt matter .. i need to look at a wiring diagram i think to see how the signals differ.
Can you try to hold the button down on the fob for longer or try a double press , see what happens then.
Also im guessing you are unlocking the tailgate with the doors shut , whilst with the button you have the doors open , air pressure can make a difference so try the fob with the door open , if so its just the lock that needs adjustment as its too tight and to be honest i would probably slacken off the lock a bit anyway.
The angle of the tailgate could possibly make a difference there but i think im over thinking this lol
Unfortunatly this is the kind of fault i really need to look at the car to check various things , but try the bits i mentioned and let me know , ill (when i get time
) find a wireing diagram and have a look to see if i can come up with anything else.You could try winding out the rubbers on the rear panel that hit against the tailgate , rubber stops , try half a turn on each anti clock wise , last edit .. im at home and shouldn,t be thinking about Porsche faults now
Edited by Demort on Thursday 28th January 19:50
Lol im sure theres plenty of us around .. just not many on the forums
Btw 996/997 roof are basically the same so the above post also aplys to your car if you have any problems.
Also i think adjusting the rubbers will probably stop your problem as it will push the tailgate higher on opening .. but thats not the actual fault .. just a work around.
Btw 996/997 roof are basically the same so the above post also aplys to your car if you have any problems.
Also i think adjusting the rubbers will probably stop your problem as it will push the tailgate higher on opening .. but thats not the actual fault .. just a work around.
Edited by Demort on Thursday 28th January 20:08
Edited by Demort on Thursday 28th January 21:06
Demort said:
Im guessing it made a bit of a clicking noise or crunching noise as it went forward .. that would be the cables ,
Hello, forgive me for jumping on this thread but I think I have a similar issue with my 996 Targa...The roof clicks/crunches as it goes back (sometimes not all the way) and also on the way back up. It's now started not going all the way up on the left (passenger) side and needs to be pushed forward and up by hand (with some force) to close fully.....
I'm no mechanic, but I'm not scared of the spanners, is there anything I can try at home or does it sound terminal?
Any advice gratefully recieved. Thanks in advance,
Joe.
If you have to push it to help it close then its more than likely the cables / mechanism sticking .. the roof is slow in normal operation and people often lubricate the cables , it will make it quicker but only in the short term as dirt collects on the drive mechanism and makes it even worse.
Any noises are usually the cables starting to slip on the motors or possibly the plastic feet on the mechanism are breaking up .. unlikely though.
I think i said above about cable faults .. its not cheap im afraid , the roof cassette has to come out to replace the cables and its a 2 day job with approx £500 on parts.
There is no quick fix other than lubricateing the cables but that will only make it worse in the long run as more dirt collects and will totally stop the roof from working.
With Immark i gave him my number so we could chat on the phone .. easier to explain that way so if you want ill happily explain it on the phone .
Any noises are usually the cables starting to slip on the motors or possibly the plastic feet on the mechanism are breaking up .. unlikely though.
I think i said above about cable faults .. its not cheap im afraid , the roof cassette has to come out to replace the cables and its a 2 day job with approx £500 on parts.
There is no quick fix other than lubricateing the cables but that will only make it worse in the long run as more dirt collects and will totally stop the roof from working.
With Immark i gave him my number so we could chat on the phone .. easier to explain that way so if you want ill happily explain it on the phone .
Just thought I would bring my story more up to date.
The local OPC had a look at it and reckon it needs motors as well as cables.
They don't appear to have done many but I know they have done at least one complete rebuild.
Haven't come across a local (Bristol ) Indie yet who are jumping at doing it. One who was generally recommended declined.
PM doesn't look to be working so maybe they are getting in touch but I am not getting the mails!
On the plus side it it isn't leaking so I don't need to decide that quickly.
Any suggestions welcome!
The local OPC had a look at it and reckon it needs motors as well as cables.
They don't appear to have done many but I know they have done at least one complete rebuild.
Haven't come across a local (Bristol ) Indie yet who are jumping at doing it. One who was generally recommended declined.
PM doesn't look to be working so maybe they are getting in touch but I am not getting the mails!
On the plus side it it isn't leaking so I don't need to decide that quickly.
Any suggestions welcome!
ImMark said:
Just thought I would bring my story more up to date.
The local OPC had a look at it and reckon it needs motors as well as cables.
They don't appear to have done many but I know they have done at least one complete rebuild.
Haven't come across a local (Bristol ) Indie yet who are jumping at doing it. One who was generally recommended declined.
PM doesn't look to be working so maybe they are getting in touch but I am not getting the mails!
On the plus side it it isn't leaking so I don't need to decide that quickly.
Any suggestions welcome!
So .. the OPC say they want to replace cables AND motors lol , talk about replaceing everything .. ill bet when they get the roof out they will tell you it wants the linkage as well .. sigh and yes ive got 10 years opc under my belt if anyone wants to complain.The local OPC had a look at it and reckon it needs motors as well as cables.
They don't appear to have done many but I know they have done at least one complete rebuild.
Haven't come across a local (Bristol ) Indie yet who are jumping at doing it. One who was generally recommended declined.
PM doesn't look to be working so maybe they are getting in touch but I am not getting the mails!
On the plus side it it isn't leaking so I don't need to decide that quickly.
Any suggestions welcome!
I have never had to replace the motors , ive had cars where the motors had been replaced and that didnt cure it though .. the motors will set you back £600 on there own let alone dealer prices for labour.
Please phone me as and when you find somewere so i can vet it because if you really cant find anywhere (sensible) i could find out about a possible c&d .. basically im kinda mad that even without seeing the car i know you could well get ripped off.
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