997 Turbo or 997 Turbo S?
Discussion
I'm in the market for an OPC 997 Turbo S.
There is a slow trickle of these through OPCs however prices are very high and I'm exploring the two cars either side of the 997 Turbo S - namely the 997 Turbo and the 991 Turbo.
The two questions I have are
1. Dynamically is a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack that includes dynamic engine mounts arguably the same as a marginally less boosted Turbo S? (Not withstanding the other cosmetic standard options like PCCB that come with the Turbo S).
2. Is a 991 Turbo (with PDCC) comparable in performance and dynamics to the 997 Turbo S?
I guess what's driving the questions is that low mileage OPC Turbo S cars are commanding such high prices (even after I have allowed for the OPC premium which I'm happy to accept) and I am questioning whether the two cars in the range either side of the 997 Turbo S are in fact better value £ for £.
Also I know it is pointless to look at trade prices (except to see what you'd get in a distress sale) but still a Turbo S that's offered for £80k/£85k is a £62k car in the trade... although I accept a gap in value between trade and retail (especially at OPC) £20k is a pretty big gap that will track against depreciation for some time.
Any thoughts / perspectives on my questions appreciated.
There is a slow trickle of these through OPCs however prices are very high and I'm exploring the two cars either side of the 997 Turbo S - namely the 997 Turbo and the 991 Turbo.
The two questions I have are
1. Dynamically is a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack that includes dynamic engine mounts arguably the same as a marginally less boosted Turbo S? (Not withstanding the other cosmetic standard options like PCCB that come with the Turbo S).
2. Is a 991 Turbo (with PDCC) comparable in performance and dynamics to the 997 Turbo S?
I guess what's driving the questions is that low mileage OPC Turbo S cars are commanding such high prices (even after I have allowed for the OPC premium which I'm happy to accept) and I am questioning whether the two cars in the range either side of the 997 Turbo S are in fact better value £ for £.
Also I know it is pointless to look at trade prices (except to see what you'd get in a distress sale) but still a Turbo S that's offered for £80k/£85k is a £62k car in the trade... although I accept a gap in value between trade and retail (especially at OPC) £20k is a pretty big gap that will track against depreciation for some time.
Any thoughts / perspectives on my questions appreciated.
Edited by sasha320 on Sunday 19th March 08:08
I had exactly the same thoughts as you to be honest and ended up going for a Turbo S.
They're commanding a premium for a good reason I think. I'll start by saying yes we would all love a manual 997TT but gen 2 manuals are rare as hens teeth and go within 24 hours on the market - the other thing is, due to their rarity you can't be choosy on spec - the last one I saw was the light blue colour (can't remember what it's called but it's definitely not a desirable colour), it had 8k miles and appeared on eBay for £64k or best offer. It went within a day and then appeared a week later at an OPC for £78k.
Anyway, back to the 997TT vs 997TTS question. What I found when looking is that the S models tended to be much better specc'd (over and above the S spec) than the non S models. I guess it was the money no object mentality when ordering, after all when they were new I can't see why anyone wouldn't go for an S model if they could afford it as it was cheaper than speccing all the S options separately - hence you don't see many non 'S' models with Chrono, PCCB's, Centre locks (I hate the gen 2 Turbo alloys), dynamic engine mounts and PTV (this is a big draw). In fact, I've never seen one.
That said, I was actually looking for a non S model, as the S was out of buget, any gen 2 997TT would have done me!
The other thing to consider is risiduals as you've already mentioned. I take your point about the 991 being better in every way, but the same could be said about the 996 GT3 RS vs 997 GT3 RS - the 996's are almost fetching more money now. Personally, I much prefer the look of the 997 and the 991 just seems to modern in many ways. Bear in mind there were only 2000 997TTS' sold worldwide, and 200 in the U.K., of which half are rag tops. That makes a 997TTS coupe rarer than a 997 GT3 RS. In my eyes the value of these is only going to increase.
Hope that helps!
Oh - this morning there was a black/black 997TTS come on at Porsche Tonbridge with 24k miles - only standard 997TTS in the country for sale at an OPC - £89k.
Get it bought!
They're commanding a premium for a good reason I think. I'll start by saying yes we would all love a manual 997TT but gen 2 manuals are rare as hens teeth and go within 24 hours on the market - the other thing is, due to their rarity you can't be choosy on spec - the last one I saw was the light blue colour (can't remember what it's called but it's definitely not a desirable colour), it had 8k miles and appeared on eBay for £64k or best offer. It went within a day and then appeared a week later at an OPC for £78k.
Anyway, back to the 997TT vs 997TTS question. What I found when looking is that the S models tended to be much better specc'd (over and above the S spec) than the non S models. I guess it was the money no object mentality when ordering, after all when they were new I can't see why anyone wouldn't go for an S model if they could afford it as it was cheaper than speccing all the S options separately - hence you don't see many non 'S' models with Chrono, PCCB's, Centre locks (I hate the gen 2 Turbo alloys), dynamic engine mounts and PTV (this is a big draw). In fact, I've never seen one.
That said, I was actually looking for a non S model, as the S was out of buget, any gen 2 997TT would have done me!
The other thing to consider is risiduals as you've already mentioned. I take your point about the 991 being better in every way, but the same could be said about the 996 GT3 RS vs 997 GT3 RS - the 996's are almost fetching more money now. Personally, I much prefer the look of the 997 and the 991 just seems to modern in many ways. Bear in mind there were only 2000 997TTS' sold worldwide, and 200 in the U.K., of which half are rag tops. That makes a 997TTS coupe rarer than a 997 GT3 RS. In my eyes the value of these is only going to increase.
Hope that helps!
Oh - this morning there was a black/black 997TTS come on at Porsche Tonbridge with 24k miles - only standard 997TTS in the country for sale at an OPC - £89k.
Get it bought!
Thanks, good post. I buy your logic and I am in the same position you were and share your feelings about the 991.
The Tonbridge car, although it is as good as it gets, is just too expensive for me (I know many roll their eyes at having a £5k sensitivity at a £80k price point).
They have added a premium for the car's age (2012) on top of all the other premiums that OPCs add.
I foolishly let a 2010 £78k Turbo S in Meteor Grey at West London OPC go earlier in the week because I procrastinated for 24hours (I wont make that mistake again).
That said, if the Tonbridge car is still there when I get back from Switzerland next week, I won't be able to resist going to see it and once I see it... :0)
Oh I do want a 997 Turbo S!
The Tonbridge car, although it is as good as it gets, is just too expensive for me (I know many roll their eyes at having a £5k sensitivity at a £80k price point).
They have added a premium for the car's age (2012) on top of all the other premiums that OPCs add.
I foolishly let a 2010 £78k Turbo S in Meteor Grey at West London OPC go earlier in the week because I procrastinated for 24hours (I wont make that mistake again).
That said, if the Tonbridge car is still there when I get back from Switzerland next week, I won't be able to resist going to see it and once I see it... :0)
Oh I do want a 997 Turbo S!
No problem - out of interest how many miles did the MG have? £78k - Jesus that is an absolute steal. I've not seen any (at OPC or otherwise) go for less than £80k for a while now!
Don't worry, I know exactly what you mean about the £5k and people rolling their eyes - it's a matter of principle and you've got to do what feels right for you. What you don't want is to feel like you've lost £5 as soon as you've bought the car as you think it was overpriced - on the other hand, you'll be driving a 997TTS so I don't think you'll care!
Ask yourself this - if that cars not available when you return, will you be disappointed? I think you would be, after all, it could be another 6 months until another one like that appears at an OPC...
Don't worry, I know exactly what you mean about the £5k and people rolling their eyes - it's a matter of principle and you've got to do what feels right for you. What you don't want is to feel like you've lost £5 as soon as you've bought the car as you think it was overpriced - on the other hand, you'll be driving a 997TTS so I don't think you'll care!
Ask yourself this - if that cars not available when you return, will you be disappointed? I think you would be, after all, it could be another 6 months until another one like that appears at an OPC...
funtimee said:
out of interest how many miles did the MG have? £78k - Jesus that is an absolute steal.
24k. Having made the same mistake as sasha320 before, I didn't this time. 
It is a fairly "basic" spec Turbo S though, and has the Turbo 2 wheels. Would have preferred the center locks, but at that price I'm not going to argue.Out of interest, where is the Porsche Tonbridge black TTS advertised? I can't see it on the OPC approved network?
Congrats Jabbah, very nice motor you got there.
Yes the only downside of that car for me too was not having centre locks, but that wasn't the reason for procrastination and I think ultimately 5 hole wheels will win on convenience after a few years of tyre / winter wheel swaps.
The Tonbridge car is on Autotrader.
Yes the only downside of that car for me too was not having centre locks, but that wasn't the reason for procrastination and I think ultimately 5 hole wheels will win on convenience after a few years of tyre / winter wheel swaps.
The Tonbridge car is on Autotrader.
Good luck with the search Sasha. That black one does look very nice and two years younger than the MG one. If the MG hadn't come up I'd have been all over that one instead. Phone them up, ask the usual questions and get a holding deposit down to view it when you come back! It's a 2k refundable deposit for purchase subject to viewing.
The relative "cheapness" of the MG one does make me wonder though. Is that really just the +2 years, center locks, leather console and sun roof?
The relative "cheapness" of the MG one does make me wonder though. Is that really just the +2 years, center locks, leather console and sun roof?
Jabbah - great advice!
OP - get that 2k down!! You've got nothing to loose by doing it, but if you dont then you might regret it for a long time to come if nothing else comes up.
I do think that the 2 years makes a big difference on price, 2012 was the last year of production so had every single revision and the best of the 997's. Centre locks also command a premium as they look so much better than the Turbo 2 alloys, and are the only real distinguishing factor from the outside of the car, as well as being lighter. In practice, unless you change your own wheels at home regularly or like to whip the wheels off every time you wash the car then the centre locks aren't any less convenient.
Porsche Tonbridge are also great to deal with - my TTS has been looked after by them for the last 4 years.
OP - get that 2k down!! You've got nothing to loose by doing it, but if you dont then you might regret it for a long time to come if nothing else comes up.
I do think that the 2 years makes a big difference on price, 2012 was the last year of production so had every single revision and the best of the 997's. Centre locks also command a premium as they look so much better than the Turbo 2 alloys, and are the only real distinguishing factor from the outside of the car, as well as being lighter. In practice, unless you change your own wheels at home regularly or like to whip the wheels off every time you wash the car then the centre locks aren't any less convenient.
Porsche Tonbridge are also great to deal with - my TTS has been looked after by them for the last 4 years.
Still a good looking 911 and makes the 991 look a little girthy...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...
funtimee said:
Jabbah - great advice!
OP - get that 2k down!! You've got nothing to loose by doing it, but if you dont then you might regret it for a long time to come if nothing else comes up.
I do think that the 2 years makes a big difference on price, 2012 was the last year of production so had every single revision and the best of the 997's. Centre locks also command a premium as they look so much better than the Turbo 2 alloys, and are the only real distinguishing factor from the outside of the car, as well as being lighter. In practice, unless you change your own wheels at home regularly or like to whip the wheels off every time you wash the car then the centre locks aren't any less convenient.
Porsche Tonbridge are also great to deal with - my TTS has been looked after by them for the last 4 years.
Agree with this - the last TTS Tonbridge had listed was there for three days, until I put a deposit on it. They are selling quickly, and there haven't been many at OPC's since the beginning of Jan.OP - get that 2k down!! You've got nothing to loose by doing it, but if you dont then you might regret it for a long time to come if nothing else comes up.
I do think that the 2 years makes a big difference on price, 2012 was the last year of production so had every single revision and the best of the 997's. Centre locks also command a premium as they look so much better than the Turbo 2 alloys, and are the only real distinguishing factor from the outside of the car, as well as being lighter. In practice, unless you change your own wheels at home regularly or like to whip the wheels off every time you wash the car then the centre locks aren't any less convenient.
Porsche Tonbridge are also great to deal with - my TTS has been looked after by them for the last 4 years.
Tonbridge were good to deal with, and handled a minor niggle with some trim as well as could be hoped for - a much better experience than another OPC I'd bought from in the past.
The Tonbridge car has gone.
That car was as good as it gets, 2012 model, low miles, well optioned and in truth I bottled it at that price.
So should have gone for Jabbah's car :0)
Aside from price, my hesitation was also driven by the fact that I bought a pre-facelift 958 Cayenne Turbo S and now wish I had bought a facelift Turbo.
Not quite the same thing but I still haven't discounted a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack as being a potential way forward given my emerging price sensitivity!
There are few Turbos for £58k to £65k from dealers that I could push for an OPC 111 point check presale and sort out my own warranty.
Anyways thanks to all who contributed to this post, really appreciate it!
That car was as good as it gets, 2012 model, low miles, well optioned and in truth I bottled it at that price.
So should have gone for Jabbah's car :0)
Aside from price, my hesitation was also driven by the fact that I bought a pre-facelift 958 Cayenne Turbo S and now wish I had bought a facelift Turbo.
Not quite the same thing but I still haven't discounted a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack as being a potential way forward given my emerging price sensitivity!
There are few Turbos for £58k to £65k from dealers that I could push for an OPC 111 point check presale and sort out my own warranty.
Anyways thanks to all who contributed to this post, really appreciate it!
Edited by sasha320 on Tuesday 21st March 09:10
I feel for you OP. I bottled it on a 997 Turbo S in Speed Yellow about 2 years ago and it still bugs me to this day! So much so, in fact, that a couple of weeks ago I spent half-a-day on the phone trying to locate it. Failed! So I wish you luck in your search.
I did notice this car at 911 Virgin, which you may have seen...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Has the centre lock wheels, PTV, sports chrono, etc. Warranty until next summer. I've heard only good things about this dealer, too.
I did notice this car at 911 Virgin, which you may have seen...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Has the centre lock wheels, PTV, sports chrono, etc. Warranty until next summer. I've heard only good things about this dealer, too.
SL550M said:
I did notice this car at 911 Virgin, which you may have seen...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Has the centre lock wheels, PTV, sports chrono, etc. Warranty until next summer. I've heard only good things about this dealer, too.
911V seem to have a very good reputation - a friend recently bought a 997.1 Turbo from them, and only had good things to say about the service.http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Has the centre lock wheels, PTV, sports chrono, etc. Warranty until next summer. I've heard only good things about this dealer, too.
Coincidentally, that was also Atlas Grey which looks superb when you see it in the flesh..
JZM probably have probably the highest spec 997 turbo PDK in the country. White and its done more miles than most but literally every single option ticked.
http://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Por...
http://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Por...
Shame you missed out on the black one OP but don't give up. I missed out on 3 in my search but one comes up every month or so, you just have to be patient and move quickly when the right one comes up. Register for the OPC approved alerts, RPM Technik also have an alert system. Get your name down at JZM and 911V and keep checking the sites.
The 911V looks pretty good, the type of options list that would have had the owner miffed when the TTS was announced. JZM one is high spec too but doesn't have PTV?
The 911V looks pretty good, the type of options list that would have had the owner miffed when the TTS was announced. JZM one is high spec too but doesn't have PTV?
funtimee said:
I had exactly the same thoughts as you to be honest and ended up going for a Turbo S.
They're commanding a premium for a good reason I think. I'll start by saying yes we would all love a manual 997TT but gen 2 manuals are rare as hens teeth and go within 24 hours on the market - the other thing is, due to their rarity you can't be choosy on spec - the last one I saw was the light blue colour (can't remember what it's called but it's definitely not a desirable colour), it had 8k miles and appeared on eBay for £64k or best offer. It went within a day and then appeared a week later at an OPC for £78k.
Anyway, back to the 997TT vs 997TTS question. What I found when looking is that the S models tended to be much better specc'd (over and above the S spec) than the non S models. I guess it was the money no object mentality when ordering, after all when they were new I can't see why anyone wouldn't go for an S model if they could afford it as it was cheaper than speccing all the S options separately - hence you don't see many non 'S' models with Chrono, PCCB's, Centre locks (I hate the gen 2 Turbo alloys), dynamic engine mounts and PTV (this is a big draw). In fact, I've never seen one.
That said, I was actually looking for a non S model, as the S was out of buget, any gen 2 997TT would have done me!
The other thing to consider is risiduals as you've already mentioned. I take your point about the 991 being better in every way, but the same could be said about the 996 GT3 RS vs 997 GT3 RS - the 996's are almost fetching more money now. Personally, I much prefer the look of the 997 and the 991 just seems to modern in many ways. Bear in mind there were only 2000 997TTS' sold worldwide, and 200 in the U.K., of which half are rag tops. That makes a 997TTS coupe rarer than a 997 GT3 RS. In my eyes the value of these is only going to increase.
Hope that helps!
Oh - this morning there was a black/black 997TTS come on at Porsche Tonbridge with 24k miles - only standard 997TTS in the country for sale at an OPC - £89k.
Get it bought!
Manual 997.2 turbos normally hang around for ages and are around £2k-£4K cheaper than PDK car.They're commanding a premium for a good reason I think. I'll start by saying yes we would all love a manual 997TT but gen 2 manuals are rare as hens teeth and go within 24 hours on the market - the other thing is, due to their rarity you can't be choosy on spec - the last one I saw was the light blue colour (can't remember what it's called but it's definitely not a desirable colour), it had 8k miles and appeared on eBay for £64k or best offer. It went within a day and then appeared a week later at an OPC for £78k.
Anyway, back to the 997TT vs 997TTS question. What I found when looking is that the S models tended to be much better specc'd (over and above the S spec) than the non S models. I guess it was the money no object mentality when ordering, after all when they were new I can't see why anyone wouldn't go for an S model if they could afford it as it was cheaper than speccing all the S options separately - hence you don't see many non 'S' models with Chrono, PCCB's, Centre locks (I hate the gen 2 Turbo alloys), dynamic engine mounts and PTV (this is a big draw). In fact, I've never seen one.
That said, I was actually looking for a non S model, as the S was out of buget, any gen 2 997TT would have done me!
The other thing to consider is risiduals as you've already mentioned. I take your point about the 991 being better in every way, but the same could be said about the 996 GT3 RS vs 997 GT3 RS - the 996's are almost fetching more money now. Personally, I much prefer the look of the 997 and the 991 just seems to modern in many ways. Bear in mind there were only 2000 997TTS' sold worldwide, and 200 in the U.K., of which half are rag tops. That makes a 997TTS coupe rarer than a 997 GT3 RS. In my eyes the value of these is only going to increase.
Hope that helps!
Oh - this morning there was a black/black 997TTS come on at Porsche Tonbridge with 24k miles - only standard 997TTS in the country for sale at an OPC - £89k.
Get it bought!
From memory the manual 997.2 turbo in blue had 8k miles and was one owner from new being sold by a second hand car dealer in London who had previously sold the chaps 996 turbo.
Did that car reappear at OPC Sutton Coldfield?
Edited by Bikeracer1098 on Wednesday 22 March 01:25
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