Trump's tariffs
Discussion
Morning all,
I've just been reading about Trump passing tariffs into law on imported washing machines and solar panels.
Needless to say, there's been loads of negative reaction to this, but I'm struggling to see why it's such a bad idea?
We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?
Ok, wonderful, we get cheaper TVs and the like, but are they actually cheaper once the impact on our manufacturing sector is taken into account?
I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?
I've just been reading about Trump passing tariffs into law on imported washing machines and solar panels.
Needless to say, there's been loads of negative reaction to this, but I'm struggling to see why it's such a bad idea?
We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?
Ok, wonderful, we get cheaper TVs and the like, but are they actually cheaper once the impact on our manufacturing sector is taken into account?
I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?
Kermit power said:
Morning all,
I've just been reading about Trump passing tariffs into law on imported washing machines and solar panels.
Needless to say, there's been loads of negative reaction to this, but I'm struggling to see why it's such a bad idea?
We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?
Ok, wonderful, we get cheaper TVs and the like, but are they actually cheaper once the impact on our manufacturing sector is taken into account?
I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?
Considering we make fI've just been reading about Trump passing tariffs into law on imported washing machines and solar panels.
Needless to say, there's been loads of negative reaction to this, but I'm struggling to see why it's such a bad idea?
We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?
Ok, wonderful, we get cheaper TVs and the like, but are they actually cheaper once the impact on our manufacturing sector is taken into account?
I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?
k all it'd be cost now + cost of tariff + 20% of the difference in VAT + 20% of the for a decent profit margin.....Kermit power said:
Morning all,
I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?
We'd be worse off. I'm not trying to make a political statement here, I'm asking a question. If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?
TVs would cost more.
Industry would suffer due to increased costs.
Exporting would be harder because we'd be importing less.
Dindoit said:
Kermit power said:
If we implemented Trump style tariffs, what would be the impact on the average citizen?
They would pay more for goods and services.
The issue behind this was the admission of China into the WTO before it became a true market economy and before it granted access to its own market on anything like the same terms as its own access to western markets.
Just look at forced transfer of intellectual property in return for access as one example.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/08/14/...
Just look at forced transfer of intellectual property in return for access as one example.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/08/14/...
Lenin said:
The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them
That is not to say however that a clown like Trump can do anything about this. Discussed many times on the various Brexit threads.
You either believe foreign companies 'dumping' cheap goods on us is a terrible thing and decimates our local industry - hence tariffs; or a good thing and should be allowed - hence cheap stuff.
I'm in the cheap stuff camp. If someone else can make cakes more efficiently than I can, I need to either make cakes more efficiently or go do something more productive. Tariffs just penalise everyone. Domestic industries get an inherent boost from being domestic, and if we really want to preserve some local ability (for strategic or nostalgic reasons) we can look at subsidies or tax breaks for those people.
The point being the benefit of a cheap import that most of your population can benefit from vastly outweighs the cost of reducing a relatively small domestic industry. It happens all the time - we don't shed that many tears for our cotton factories or other jobs that have been driven to next to zero value. Instead we want our workers to move on to the industries that create more value. That way we get economic growth.
You either believe foreign companies 'dumping' cheap goods on us is a terrible thing and decimates our local industry - hence tariffs; or a good thing and should be allowed - hence cheap stuff.
I'm in the cheap stuff camp. If someone else can make cakes more efficiently than I can, I need to either make cakes more efficiently or go do something more productive. Tariffs just penalise everyone. Domestic industries get an inherent boost from being domestic, and if we really want to preserve some local ability (for strategic or nostalgic reasons) we can look at subsidies or tax breaks for those people.
The point being the benefit of a cheap import that most of your population can benefit from vastly outweighs the cost of reducing a relatively small domestic industry. It happens all the time - we don't shed that many tears for our cotton factories or other jobs that have been driven to next to zero value. Instead we want our workers to move on to the industries that create more value. That way we get economic growth.
Tuna said:
Discussed many times on the various Brexit threads.
You either believe foreign companies 'dumping' cheap goods on us is a terrible thing and decimates our local industry - hence tariffs; or a good thing and should be allowed - hence cheap stuff.
I'm in the cheap stuff camp. If someone else can make cakes more efficiently than I can, I need to either make cakes more efficiently or go do something more productive. Tariffs just penalise everyone. Domestic industries get an inherent boost from being domestic, and if we really want to preserve some local ability (for strategic or nostalgic reasons) we can look at subsidies or tax breaks for those people.
The point being the benefit of a cheap import that most of your population can benefit from vastly outweighs the cost of reducing a relatively small domestic industry. It happens all the time - we don't shed that many tears for our cotton factories or other jobs that have been driven to next to zero value. Instead we want our workers to move on to the industries that create more value. That way we get economic growth.
And if the cheap stuff is achieved by $1 per day children in a sweatshop?You either believe foreign companies 'dumping' cheap goods on us is a terrible thing and decimates our local industry - hence tariffs; or a good thing and should be allowed - hence cheap stuff.
I'm in the cheap stuff camp. If someone else can make cakes more efficiently than I can, I need to either make cakes more efficiently or go do something more productive. Tariffs just penalise everyone. Domestic industries get an inherent boost from being domestic, and if we really want to preserve some local ability (for strategic or nostalgic reasons) we can look at subsidies or tax breaks for those people.
The point being the benefit of a cheap import that most of your population can benefit from vastly outweighs the cost of reducing a relatively small domestic industry. It happens all the time - we don't shed that many tears for our cotton factories or other jobs that have been driven to next to zero value. Instead we want our workers to move on to the industries that create more value. That way we get economic growth.
PurpleMoonlight said:
And if the cheap stuff is achieved by $1 per day children in a sweatshop?
If that's slave labour then don't buy their produce at all, don't just put a tariff on it.If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
Dr Jekyll said:
If that's slave labour then don't buy their produce at all, don't just put a tariff on it.
If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
How many of the public look into the working conditions of those making any product they buy?If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
I believe the idea is that if there is no market for their cheap sweatshop products, then they won't make them.
Free trade has downsides.
I am not a fan of a race to the bottom.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Dr Jekyll said:
If that's slave labour then don't buy their produce at all, don't just put a tariff on it.
If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
How many of the public look into the working conditions of those making any product they buy?If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
I believe the idea is that if there is no market for their cheap sweatshop products, then they won't make them.
Free trade has downsides.
I am not a fan of a race to the bottom.
Dr Jekyll said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Dr Jekyll said:
If that's slave labour then don't buy their produce at all, don't just put a tariff on it.
If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
How many of the public look into the working conditions of those making any product they buy?If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
I believe the idea is that if there is no market for their cheap sweatshop products, then they won't make them.
Free trade has downsides.
I am not a fan of a race to the bottom.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Dr Jekyll said:
If that's slave labour then don't buy their produce at all, don't just put a tariff on it.
If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
How many of the public look into the working conditions of those making any product they buy?If they choose to work because it's better than they get elsewhere, where's the problem? And how would a tariff help?
Forty years ago 88% of the Chinese population was in poverty, now it's less than 10%. That's the benefit of free trade.
I believe the idea is that if there is no market for their cheap sweatshop products, then they won't make them.
Free trade has downsides.
I am not a fan of a race to the bottom.
Ethical supply chain management is what prevents a British company procuring from suppliers that use child labour.
They are completely separate issues.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Were you not claiming the reduction in Chinese poverty was due to free trade?
I was pointing out that it's due to trade full stop. More trade, and people get richer. Free trade means yet more trade.Are you suggesting the reduction in Chinese poverty is due to tariffs restricting Chinese exports?
Sway said:
Ethical supply chain management is what prevents a British company procuring from suppliers that use child labour.
They are completely separate issues.
Indeed.They are completely separate issues.
I cannot supply the Coop unless I am a member of Sedex. I can be audited on >everything< from the number of fire escapes I have to washroom facilities to employment contracts to wage levels etc.
It's not a perfect system but it is a step in the right direction.
Dr Jekyll said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Were you not claiming the reduction in Chinese poverty was due to free trade?
I was pointing out that it's due to trade full stop. More trade, and people get richer. Free trade means yet more trade.Are you suggesting the reduction in Chinese poverty is due to tariffs restricting Chinese exports?
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