Quick blat in the new manual '3
Discussion
TDT said:
Very honest of you.... not many people would admit this openly.
I found this quite sobering..... GT3 v T, both manual:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7tHGD9GZ_c
1.6secs between a GT3 and T on a short 1-min per lap track.
OK, thats what, a little over a 2.5% improvement ...... but with its wider range of abilities the T/Carrera is closer than I expected.
Edited by X-Box on Thursday 15th March 14:42
Torque is a nice thing .......... my 01 GT3 RS engine was like an F3 engine ... once below 6,000 there was nothing , so had to keep it between 7-8.5 k revs to keep speed all the time ..... so it worked hard rev wise , until it let go ...So I prefer a bit more low down especially on a road car ....
Wow, tough crowd. I drove a manual GT3 for the first time at the PEC on Monday and the engine blew my mind. Different frame of reference I guess, I haven't driven an older GT3 or an RS.
I'm coming from a GT4 which by all accounts is also a bit of a s
tter (blew my mind!), before that was a 981 Cayman S (mind blown!).
The last time my mind wasn't blown by my new car was a DSG Scirocco Tdi170 that was "fine".
I'm coming from a GT4 which by all accounts is also a bit of a s
tter (blew my mind!), before that was a 981 Cayman S (mind blown!).The last time my mind wasn't blown by my new car was a DSG Scirocco Tdi170 that was "fine".
Good review cmoose. :thumup:
Not had time in a .2, but your feelings seem similar to mine of the .1; it's a car you could easily use everyday, but not necessarily a car you immediately feel significant visceral and emotional connection to.
As the GT has progressed, it's arguably has moved from 'feeling' toward 'capability'; faster, but a bit less fun too.
Not had time in a .2, but your feelings seem similar to mine of the .1; it's a car you could easily use everyday, but not necessarily a car you immediately feel significant visceral and emotional connection to.
v8ksn said:
I have been feeling that contemporary 'super-sports' cars have been getting too fast for quite a while now. This viewpoint was compounded by a recent drive in a close family members McLaren 720s. It was FAR too fast for me. The thing hoovers up the horizon like a zoom lens on a camera!
I know I will be laughed at here but I had more fun driving my manual E46 3 series coupe home via greasy, muddy country roads than I did in the 720s.
A good friend has both a 650s and also an Elise S. He says he loves the McLaren for the drama, the technology and the styling, but it's just too, too ruthlessly fast to be 'fun' on the road. At sensible speeds on the road, the Elise is, for want of a better word, more enjoyable.I know I will be laughed at here but I had more fun driving my manual E46 3 series coupe home via greasy, muddy country roads than I did in the 720s.
As the GT has progressed, it's arguably has moved from 'feeling' toward 'capability'; faster, but a bit less fun too.
Good review that 
Kind of feel the same re most new sports cars, the 'better' they get, the more disconnected you feel from them.
The more accomplished they are on track, you can't get anywhere near their limits on the road = less enjoyment overall...
I'd prefer a manual touring spec these days and I never thought I'd be in that camp!
Kind of feel the same re most new sports cars, the 'better' they get, the more disconnected you feel from them.
The more accomplished they are on track, you can't get anywhere near their limits on the road = less enjoyment overall...
I'd prefer a manual touring spec these days and I never thought I'd be in that camp!
LaSource said:
I can connect with your review as that is very very similar to how I felt after a few hours spent driving a friend's car.
Totally agree with your perspective...it is a great machine. The engine is super. My issue was that it does everything so well that well....it needed a few warts to give it 'character'
I actually stepped away from it thinking that it felt like a GT4 dialled up. So more power and composure but largely a similar feel in the ergonomics, interior, cockpit, steering, mid engined feel (with the 4ws on the road), etc. Of course, haven't driven on track but hopefully will try a pax on track next week.
The manual box was so well designed and smooth with perfect autoblips, that it made me wonder why have it and not just go PDK...the perfection felt a bit like I'm just moving a stick around and contriving a manual interface as a throw back.
Now the reality is that we all carry baggage and perspectives, personal journeys etc...so no one view is correct. For someone picking up a list price slot it is a very very good car for the money. If you have not been so fortunate and you are reading the hype and being offered cars for considerably more than list then expectations can be different.
I think as we saw with the 991.1RS previously, overhype can dull the experience. Underhype creates probably a beautiful experience.
(Oh, and it is definitely does not trump the connected experience of a 996 GT3/RS)
I concur, for something to be truly great or really "special", it needs to be a bit sh*t. Totally agree with your perspective...it is a great machine. The engine is super. My issue was that it does everything so well that well....it needed a few warts to give it 'character'
I actually stepped away from it thinking that it felt like a GT4 dialled up. So more power and composure but largely a similar feel in the ergonomics, interior, cockpit, steering, mid engined feel (with the 4ws on the road), etc. Of course, haven't driven on track but hopefully will try a pax on track next week.
The manual box was so well designed and smooth with perfect autoblips, that it made me wonder why have it and not just go PDK...the perfection felt a bit like I'm just moving a stick around and contriving a manual interface as a throw back.
Now the reality is that we all carry baggage and perspectives, personal journeys etc...so no one view is correct. For someone picking up a list price slot it is a very very good car for the money. If you have not been so fortunate and you are reading the hype and being offered cars for considerably more than list then expectations can be different.
I think as we saw with the 991.1RS previously, overhype can dull the experience. Underhype creates probably a beautiful experience.
(Oh, and it is definitely does not trump the connected experience of a 996 GT3/RS)
964 RS : No power steering (just perfect once on the move though) hopeless turning circle, overly stiff suspension (I loved it mind), cost the same as a 964 Turbo when new.
M3 CSL : Hopeless gearbox (I loved it) Pathetic brakes.
996 GT3 RS : "Challenging" suspension set up.
996 GT2 : "Questionable" handling out of the box. Ditto standard power delivery.
GT4 : Hopeless gear ratios and an engine that breathes about as well as an asthmatic ant at the top end.
Mk1 996 GT3 : Hopeless brakes.
Mk2 996 GT3 : The looks, I mean that rear wing for a start ....
Nice write up J.
Slippydiff said:
LaSource said:
I can connect with your review as that is very very similar to how I felt after a few hours spent driving a friend's car.
Totally agree with your perspective...it is a great machine. The engine is super. My issue was that it does everything so well that well....it needed a few warts to give it 'character'
I actually stepped away from it thinking that it felt like a GT4 dialled up. So more power and composure but largely a similar feel in the ergonomics, interior, cockpit, steering, mid engined feel (with the 4ws on the road), etc. Of course, haven't driven on track but hopefully will try a pax on track next week.
The manual box was so well designed and smooth with perfect autoblips, that it made me wonder why have it and not just go PDK...the perfection felt a bit like I'm just moving a stick around and contriving a manual interface as a throw back.
Now the reality is that we all carry baggage and perspectives, personal journeys etc...so no one view is correct. For someone picking up a list price slot it is a very very good car for the money. If you have not been so fortunate and you are reading the hype and being offered cars for considerably more than list then expectations can be different.
I think as we saw with the 991.1RS previously, overhype can dull the experience. Underhype creates probably a beautiful experience.
(Oh, and it is definitely does not trump the connected experience of a 996 GT3/RS)
I concur, for something to be truly great or really "special", it needs to be a bit sh*t. Totally agree with your perspective...it is a great machine. The engine is super. My issue was that it does everything so well that well....it needed a few warts to give it 'character'
I actually stepped away from it thinking that it felt like a GT4 dialled up. So more power and composure but largely a similar feel in the ergonomics, interior, cockpit, steering, mid engined feel (with the 4ws on the road), etc. Of course, haven't driven on track but hopefully will try a pax on track next week.
The manual box was so well designed and smooth with perfect autoblips, that it made me wonder why have it and not just go PDK...the perfection felt a bit like I'm just moving a stick around and contriving a manual interface as a throw back.
Now the reality is that we all carry baggage and perspectives, personal journeys etc...so no one view is correct. For someone picking up a list price slot it is a very very good car for the money. If you have not been so fortunate and you are reading the hype and being offered cars for considerably more than list then expectations can be different.
I think as we saw with the 991.1RS previously, overhype can dull the experience. Underhype creates probably a beautiful experience.
(Oh, and it is definitely does not trump the connected experience of a 996 GT3/RS)
964 RS : No power steering (just perfect once on the move though) hopeless turning circle, overly stiff suspension (I loved it mind), cost the same as a 964 Turbo when new.
M3 CSL : Hopeless gearbox (I loved it) Pathetic brakes.
996 GT3 RS : "Challenging" suspension set up.
996 GT2 : "Questionable" handling out of the box. Ditto standard power delivery.
GT4 : Hopeless gear ratios and an engine that breathes about as well as an asthmatic ant at the top end.
Mk1 996 GT3 : Hopeless brakes.
Mk2 996 GT3 : The looks, I mean that rear wing for a start ....
Nice write up J.
Ps: specsavers
Agree with the sentiment. Though maybe I’ll caveat a little that the cars need to have a weakness that needs a particular approach to switch it on, or the weakness becomes a strength in certain circumstances (eg road vs track).
In that regard, although I agree with your list, two things stand out:
The CSL brakes have no redeeming feature
until a set of AP Racing calipers are installed. The GT4 engine constriction is just a rubbish thing and not a two sided thing.
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 15th March 22:14
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 15th March 22:16
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Interesting review - about the above, well Preuninger did say that they raised the rear wing a bit so perhaps that's why and it wasn't just the usual marketing hype! Get the RS if rear visibility is a factor, in the 991s it's so damned high you don't actually see the wing unlike the 997 LaSource said:
My issue was that it does everything so well that well....it needed a few warts to give it 'character'
The former is true but not necessarily the latter I think. I would have disagree that a car needs to have flaws to give it character tbh as if you could iron out the couple of things that bug me about the 2 beetles I have I'd be one bloody happy bunny!!!An interesting read.
I haven't driven a 991.2 GT3 yet. Did drive a 991.1 GT3 (obviously PDK) over the Brecon Beacons a few years back. I was there in my1972 hotrod with 2.7 engine. The GT3 was technically very impressive but in terms of feedback and being fun to drive at road speeds it wasn't close to my early 911. All subjective of course. I am hoping the manual gearbox will be an improvement but suspect that the other factors mentioned above, such as the size of the car and electric steering, will still be big negatives.
I haven't driven a 991.2 GT3 yet. Did drive a 991.1 GT3 (obviously PDK) over the Brecon Beacons a few years back. I was there in my1972 hotrod with 2.7 engine. The GT3 was technically very impressive but in terms of feedback and being fun to drive at road speeds it wasn't close to my early 911. All subjective of course. I am hoping the manual gearbox will be an improvement but suspect that the other factors mentioned above, such as the size of the car and electric steering, will still be big negatives.
Each year manufactures feel they have to add something more to the car to make it better than last years.
For some time now we have been pretty much at the point where stuff was so dam good mechanically and yet still involved us as drivers. Its been like that for a few years.
The recent "improvements" are things that may be technically great & cool or possible, but actually not involving or necessary. Like rev matching or flappy paddles etc.
We are also passengers to marketing who seem on a never ending desire to prove their car is the fastest round the ring. So now we are having to make racing cars that are only good on the track, work on the road. The two are significantly different and the changes needed are becoming counterproductive. Like making the car longer and wider so it handle better on the track, but on a real road its starting to feel too big.
For some time now we have been pretty much at the point where stuff was so dam good mechanically and yet still involved us as drivers. Its been like that for a few years.
The recent "improvements" are things that may be technically great & cool or possible, but actually not involving or necessary. Like rev matching or flappy paddles etc.
We are also passengers to marketing who seem on a never ending desire to prove their car is the fastest round the ring. So now we are having to make racing cars that are only good on the track, work on the road. The two are significantly different and the changes needed are becoming counterproductive. Like making the car longer and wider so it handle better on the track, but on a real road its starting to feel too big.
AinsleyB said:
Each year manufactures feel they have to add something more to the car to make it better than last years.
For some time now we have been pretty much at the point where stuff was so dam good mechanically and yet still involved us as drivers. Its been like that for a few years.
The recent "improvements" are things that may be technically great & cool or possible, but actually not involving or necessary. Like rev matching or flappy paddles etc.
We are also passengers to marketing who seem on a never ending desire to prove their car is the fastest round the ring. So now we are having to make racing cars that are only good on the track, work on the road. The two are significantly different and the changes needed are becoming counterproductive. Like making the car longer and wider so it handle better on the track, but on a real road its starting to feel too big.
Agree with this 100% For some time now we have been pretty much at the point where stuff was so dam good mechanically and yet still involved us as drivers. Its been like that for a few years.
The recent "improvements" are things that may be technically great & cool or possible, but actually not involving or necessary. Like rev matching or flappy paddles etc.
We are also passengers to marketing who seem on a never ending desire to prove their car is the fastest round the ring. So now we are having to make racing cars that are only good on the track, work on the road. The two are significantly different and the changes needed are becoming counterproductive. Like making the car longer and wider so it handle better on the track, but on a real road its starting to feel too big.
Peak contemporary Porsche (for ME) is the 996/997 GT3/RS - Involving and very fast on road and track but nimble and small enough to place on the road and between hedgerows.
Imagine what Porsche could do given the 996/7 RS married to modern damping and tyres
AinsleyB said:
The recent "improvements" ... flappy paddles...
I'm really torn on the subject of flappy paddles.I've always been a manual sports car driver. I've owned/driven some road cars with paddle shift and always found them confusingly s
t, but when I drove the 999.1 GT3, I 'got' the paddles very quickly and actually enjoyed the (admittedly different) driving experience.Of course therein might actually, possibly be part of the issue - the 991 is certainly, unarguably, more accessible than it's predecessors.
Digga said:
I'm really torn on the subject of flappy paddles.
I've always been a manual sports car driver. I've owned/driven some road cars with paddle shift and always found them confusingly st, but when I drove the 999.1 GT3, I 'got' the paddles very quickly and actually enjoyed the (admittedly different) driving experience.
Of course therein might actually, possibly be part of the issue - the 991 is certainly, unarguably, more accessible than it's predecessors.
I have just had a PDK car for 2 full days, and I can safely say I cannot work out why any one who likes driving would pick an Auto.I've always been a manual sports car driver. I've owned/driven some road cars with paddle shift and always found them confusingly s
t, but when I drove the 999.1 GT3, I 'got' the paddles very quickly and actually enjoyed the (admittedly different) driving experience.Of course therein might actually, possibly be part of the issue - the 991 is certainly, unarguably, more accessible than it's predecessors.
Day 1 was fun because it's new and a change , day 2 was dull and annoying and I was happy to hand it back.
I was going to start a topic on why do people choose PDK ? as it's an odd choice to make imo, ok for the other half or for some one who hates driving.
But for petrol heads I don't get why any one would choose it. The normal rush hour , other half, or it's faster excuses don't wash with me all my family drive manuals and my dad is 87 and would never entertain such automation.
As for flaws in cars, no thanks, I mod every single car to cure the flaws, they make much nicer cars fixed.
As for better being better, depends what it is, the 991.2 GT3 EPS is better and better for it most other tech which is better to make you faster is not.
Edited by Porsche911R on Friday 16th March 16:54
Porsche911R said:
I have just had a PDK car for 2 full days, and I can safely say I cannot work out why any one who likes driving would pick an Auto.
Day 1 was fun because it's new and a change , day 2 was dull and annoying and I was happy to hand it back.
I was going to start a topic on why do people choose PDK ? as it's an odd choice to make imo, ok for the other half or for some one who hates driving.
But for petrol heads I don't get why any one would choose it. The normal rush hour , other half, or it's faster excuses don't wash with me all my family drive manuals and my dad is 87 and would never entertain such automation.
As for flaws in cars, no thanks, I mod every single car to cure the flaws, they make much nicer cars fixed.
As for better being better, depends what it is, the 991.2 GT3 EPS is better and better for it most other tech which is better to make you faster is not.
Or if you can't, you sell them David .... Day 1 was fun because it's new and a change , day 2 was dull and annoying and I was happy to hand it back.
I was going to start a topic on why do people choose PDK ? as it's an odd choice to make imo, ok for the other half or for some one who hates driving.
But for petrol heads I don't get why any one would choose it. The normal rush hour , other half, or it's faster excuses don't wash with me all my family drive manuals and my dad is 87 and would never entertain such automation.
As for flaws in cars, no thanks, I mod every single car to cure the flaws, they make much nicer cars fixed.
As for better being better, depends what it is, the 991.2 GT3 EPS is better and better for it most other tech which is better to make you faster is not.
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