996 C4S or 997 C2?
Discussion
dvshannow said:
In the wet to be fair i can see how some might prefer 4wd the current GTS is does squirm a bit when you put down even moderate throttle
The psm usually will kick in but i can see how some would not find the movement confidence inspiring and a 4wd does have a lot less of that
991.2GTS has 450bhp/405lb-ft. A 996 only has 300bhp/258lb-ft (and develops it's lower power/torque much higher in the rev range)... you can pretty much nail it unless the roads are cold and greasy.The psm usually will kick in but i can see how some would not find the movement confidence inspiring and a 4wd does have a lot less of that
Only time I've felt my 2WD 996 lacks grip is in the snow... where it's terrifying.
After going looking online I stumbled across this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KLBGVClpX0
A fairly sizeable outlay, would be great to try it first though
A fairly sizeable outlay, would be great to try it first though
Chris Stott said:
991.2GTS has 450bhp/405lb-ft. A 996 only has 300bhp/258lb-ft (and develops it's lower power/torque much higher in the rev range)... you can pretty much nail it unless the roads are cold and greasy.
Only time I've felt my 2WD 996 lacks grip is in the snow... where it's terrifying.
Driven mine in snow a couple of times & found it OK on PS2's but I have to say I was taking it very easy!Only time I've felt my 2WD 996 lacks grip is in the snow... where it's terrifying.
Only triggered PSM once in 9yrs of spirited driving & that was entirely my fault & partly deliberate.
Triggered PSM once when had to do emergency swerve on motorway slip road. Caught it beautifully, better than i could.
Otherwise I've not been close to losing grip. And I'm fine with that. Its not a car for sliding or even chucking about (not too hard anyway). Got my mx5 turbo for that.
Otherwise I've not been close to losing grip. And I'm fine with that. Its not a car for sliding or even chucking about (not too hard anyway). Got my mx5 turbo for that.
MrJuice said:
I adore my 997.1 c2 black on black manual
Me, too I adore my 997.1 C2 black on black manual OP, another vote for the 997 C2. Reading your op, I think you already know you want the 997.
I get the love for those early C2 996, and what people like CLR and CSR are doing is truly great.
But I personally have never been a fan of the C4S.
Do any of you remember Clarkson's review of one in an old TG?
skinny said:
Its not a car for sliding or even chucking about (not too hard anyway). Got my mx5 turbo for that.
I've been doing Autosolos recently in my 996, and there's always loads of MX5s at these things. The Porsche is definitely not ideal but you can slide it about fairly easily. The last one, at Abingdon, in the rain, was particularly fun !Filibuster said:
MrJuice said:
I adore my 997.1 c2 black on black manual
Me, too I adore my 997.1 C2 black on black manual OP, another vote for the 997 C2. Reading your op, I think you already know you want the 997.
I get the love for those early C2 996, and what people like CLR and CSR are doing is truly great.
But I personally have never been a fan of the C4S.
Do any of you remember Clarkson's review of one in an old TG?
However whatever clarkson says the 997 is the more competent more modern and far better looking car
Hope the OP does not consider this 'kidnapping' of the thread, and if so massive apologies.
I'm considering starting a search for a 996 C4S and wondered what the collective view is on 'must haves'. I recognise that this is not that common a car, so I'm not trying to spec to the last option on the list. For background I have 996 ownership experience - having dailyed a 996.2 C2 Cab for 16 years now, covering 80,000 miles very happily, entirely without trouble and very inexpensively.
Here's what I think I'd want to have on the 'must have' list:
- Cabriolet (personal choice)
- Manual (personal choice)
- Xenons (my 996 has standard headlights and they are frankly terrible. I'm assuming xenons are an improvement)
- Cruise (my 996 doesn't have, I think now a 'must have' given 50mph limits on UK motorways)
- Non-PCM (as complicated and expensive to fix, easy to add hands-free and digital radio via a phone connection to the single-din units)
- IMS/RMS done
Welcome views!
I'm considering starting a search for a 996 C4S and wondered what the collective view is on 'must haves'. I recognise that this is not that common a car, so I'm not trying to spec to the last option on the list. For background I have 996 ownership experience - having dailyed a 996.2 C2 Cab for 16 years now, covering 80,000 miles very happily, entirely without trouble and very inexpensively.
Here's what I think I'd want to have on the 'must have' list:
- Cabriolet (personal choice)
- Manual (personal choice)
- Xenons (my 996 has standard headlights and they are frankly terrible. I'm assuming xenons are an improvement)
- Cruise (my 996 doesn't have, I think now a 'must have' given 50mph limits on UK motorways)
- Non-PCM (as complicated and expensive to fix, easy to add hands-free and digital radio via a phone connection to the single-din units)
- IMS/RMS done
Welcome views!
Cartan1blue said:
Hope the OP does not consider this 'kidnapping' of the thread, and if so massive apologies.
I'm considering starting a search for a 996 C4S and wondered what the collective view is on 'must haves'. I recognise that this is not that common a car, so I'm not trying to spec to the last option on the list. For background I have 996 ownership experience - having dailyed a 996.2 C2 Cab for 16 years now, covering 80,000 miles very happily, entirely without trouble and very inexpensively.
Here's what I think I'd want to have on the 'must have' list:
- Cabriolet (personal choice)
- Manual (personal choice)
- Xenons (my 996 has standard headlights and they are frankly terrible. I'm assuming xenons are an improvement)
- Cruise (my 996 doesn't have, I think now a 'must have' given 50mph limits on UK motorways)
- Non-PCM (as complicated and expensive to fix, easy to add hands-free and digital radio via a phone connection to the single-din units)
- IMS/RMS done
Welcome views!
PSE on the 996 4S makes it one of the best sounding Porsches, full stop. And it will set it apart from the car you already own. So I would definitely hold out for that. Cruise control you can easily retrofit. You can replace old PCM units with the new PCCM - expensive but looks original. A specialist replaced the RMS+IMS on my car for just over a grand inc parts and labour, and that included a new clutch. Not really a huge expense by 996 standards so I wouldn't necessarily exclude cars on that basis, just budget accordingly.I'm considering starting a search for a 996 C4S and wondered what the collective view is on 'must haves'. I recognise that this is not that common a car, so I'm not trying to spec to the last option on the list. For background I have 996 ownership experience - having dailyed a 996.2 C2 Cab for 16 years now, covering 80,000 miles very happily, entirely without trouble and very inexpensively.
Here's what I think I'd want to have on the 'must have' list:
- Cabriolet (personal choice)
- Manual (personal choice)
- Xenons (my 996 has standard headlights and they are frankly terrible. I'm assuming xenons are an improvement)
- Cruise (my 996 doesn't have, I think now a 'must have' given 50mph limits on UK motorways)
- Non-PCM (as complicated and expensive to fix, easy to add hands-free and digital radio via a phone connection to the single-din units)
- IMS/RMS done
Welcome views!
Ideally, one with a rebuilt engine (IMS failure seems far less likely than bore scoring on the 3.6’s) and faultless maintenance.
I’d say manual and PSE are essential… C4S with PSE is the best sounding non GT 996. Xenons are nice to have as the stock headlights are abysmal.
Other than that, get a colour combination you really love.
I’d say manual and PSE are essential… C4S with PSE is the best sounding non GT 996. Xenons are nice to have as the stock headlights are abysmal.
Other than that, get a colour combination you really love.
breakfan said:
PSE on the 996 4S makes it one of the best sounding Porsches, full stop. And it will set it apart from the car you already own. So I would definitely hold out for that. Cruise control you can easily retrofit. You can replace old PCM units with the new PCCM - expensive but looks original. A specialist replaced the RMS+IMS on my car for just over a grand inc parts and labour, and that included a new clutch. Not really a huge expense by 996 standards so I wouldn't necessarily exclude cars on that basis, just budget accordingly.
Personally I wouldn’t worry about PSE, yes it sounds awesome but at 20yrs old is it going to last much longer?Look to invest in a decent replacement system, not Dansk & you have the same result but longevity thrown in & probably lighter.
PSE is essential
Hard back sports seats are nice
Litronic headlights
Back in the day I was lucky also had x51 on my c4s but never seen another since, so must be very rare….
Metropole blue is a nice interior option as well, better than black IMO.
Colour coded centre tunnel also nice.
Good luck with the search
Hard back sports seats are nice
Litronic headlights
Back in the day I was lucky also had x51 on my c4s but never seen another since, so must be very rare….
Metropole blue is a nice interior option as well, better than black IMO.
Colour coded centre tunnel also nice.
Good luck with the search
Mankers said:
PSE is essential
Hard back sports seats are nice
Litronic headlights
Back in the day I was lucky also had x51 on my c4s but never seen another since, so must be very rare….
Metropole blue is a nice interior option as well, better than black IMO.
Colour coded centre tunnel also nice.
Good luck with the search
X51 is seriously rareHard back sports seats are nice
Litronic headlights
Back in the day I was lucky also had x51 on my c4s but never seen another since, so must be very rare….
Metropole blue is a nice interior option as well, better than black IMO.
Colour coded centre tunnel also nice.
Good luck with the search
Headlamps can be changed or modified
Personally I think 9x6 seats are absolutely rubbish so I've removed them
Therefore I'd say look for a car you like options aside and then retro these afterwards
Hopefully this will give you more cars to go after
I think nicer cars are getting harder to find unless you're willing to spend spend spend
So I'd find a car you can love and then worry about spec after
But that's just Me
Midgster said:
Well thanks guys, no help what so ever
Everything everyone has said here I agree with 100%. I've read all about IMS problems, bore scoring etc and thinks there's risk with either...it's a Porsche so I'm ready for a big repair bill if it happens. Hopefully not.
The C4S is telling me it may well be the more sensible buy, depreciation wise, which although isn't an important factor, does come into the equation. I think it has more wow factor to look at and rarer than the C2, which are pretty common. But then I also agree, I was underwhelmed when I drove the C4S, this may sound crazy, but other than less body roll and more pointy front end, performance wise it didn't feel greatly different to the BMW 645 I'm currently driving (apart from being a manual) ! The C2 did feel like more of an event and just felt more special.
I am edging more to the 997 C2
Common conundrum! I went for the C4S and adore it, colour plays a part (I found a rare Slate Grey example) but generally they look outstanding and do stand apart visually from the 997 IMO. GT cars and Turbo's aside none of the 996's or 997's will give that seat of your pants feeling like my TVR used to but as an overall proposition they're wonderful cars. If it's of any reassurance mine has 125,000 miles and looks and drives like new, I just upgraded the IMS but the old one was absolutely fine, and it has zero bore scoring, it's just a matter of finding one that's been well cared for as I found a lot had been neglected.Everything everyone has said here I agree with 100%. I've read all about IMS problems, bore scoring etc and thinks there's risk with either...it's a Porsche so I'm ready for a big repair bill if it happens. Hopefully not.
The C4S is telling me it may well be the more sensible buy, depreciation wise, which although isn't an important factor, does come into the equation. I think it has more wow factor to look at and rarer than the C2, which are pretty common. But then I also agree, I was underwhelmed when I drove the C4S, this may sound crazy, but other than less body roll and more pointy front end, performance wise it didn't feel greatly different to the BMW 645 I'm currently driving (apart from being a manual) ! The C2 did feel like more of an event and just felt more special.
I am edging more to the 997 C2
Couple of pics to show the colour.
Most people who like the 996 will like the C4S with its wider haunches. But for me the whole 4wd thing defines the C4S. These cars have relatively low power compared to more modern machinery. And with modern sticky tyres you just don't need 4wd on a relatively low powered 911. Once you spend some time looking at a narrow body 996 you start to appreciate some of the smaller more subtle curves.
It's worth remembering that the C4S isn't 4WD in the same way as a Scoobie, Evo etc in that there's no centre-diff, just a viscous coupling (and VC's do tend to fade over time). Official Porsche spec is that it drives c.5% to the front and <40% if the car 'gets into trouble'; the reality as far as most folks can tell or have experienced is that it's essentially a RWD car until you're either really really pushing it (most likely on track) or you hit ice/snow etc. It's a valid point though that there's a lot of grip in those rear tyres for the power (by modern standards), my TVR would spin up in 3rd in the dry, trying to break traction in the 911 is a challenge!
If you're a skilled driver and enjoy wagging the tail, adjusting your line with the throttle etc then a C2 with it's narrower rear tyres would certainly be more adjustable. If you're more like me and have more modest levels of driving skill then the C4S gives plenty of punch but in a more 'secure' package (for an older chap with young kids that works for me ).
If you're a skilled driver and enjoy wagging the tail, adjusting your line with the throttle etc then a C2 with it's narrower rear tyres would certainly be more adjustable. If you're more like me and have more modest levels of driving skill then the C4S gives plenty of punch but in a more 'secure' package (for an older chap with young kids that works for me ).
Chuck21 said:
If you're a skilled driver and enjoy wagging the tail, adjusting your line with the throttle etc then a C2 with it's narrower rear tyres would certainly be more adjustable. If you're more like me and have more modest levels of driving skill then the C4S gives plenty of punch but in a more 'secure' package (for an older chap with young kids that works for me ).
I have another 996 - I know I know - and it runs the smaller 17 wheels and tyres. For any less beardy Porsche fans that means tiny 205 fronts and then 255 rears. When the tyres were reasonably fresh I could not get the car out of shape ever. So if you can get past the concern about them not looking good enough - size matters - you will find they totally transform the steering feel compared to the 18 setup. So much more communicative and work just fine - as in the car still goes, stops and goes round bends as fast as you would ever want on a road - in my very humble opinion. These are not an option on the C4S I believe as it has massive discs compared to the more humble C2 which shares its brakes with the 986 Boxster. All of which means less rotating mass on the simpler C2. A serious driver might cook these but I have never got close. There are also more tyre choices in the 17 rear size I believe compared to the 285 30 18 rears for the later C2 which are only available in 3 different flavours. So if you want to enjoy the simpler car without traction control on skinny 17 tyres with a bit of tyre wall flexing then the 996 C2 is the only choice.Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff