PCCB GT3 will I notice the reduction in unsprung weight
Discussion
With my old 964RS I had the original set of mag wheels plus a set of alloys. Big weight difference between the two sets - fronts about 2kg heavier each and rears 3kg.
When I swapped wheels over I could spot the difference in steering feel, but if I did a track day on one set, and then another one six months later on the other set, I couldn't honestly say the car felt noticeably different in how it reacted and felt.
Sounds like you have good mechanical feel for a car, so I'm sure you'd notice a difference driving PCCB and non-PCCB back-to-back, but I doubt you would think you have to have a PCCB.
When I put a fresh set of Walter Rohrl Bilsteins on the 964 the difference was way bigger than the difference from wheel mass, and even a change of one click to damper settings was more noticeable.
David
When I swapped wheels over I could spot the difference in steering feel, but if I did a track day on one set, and then another one six months later on the other set, I couldn't honestly say the car felt noticeably different in how it reacted and felt.
Sounds like you have good mechanical feel for a car, so I'm sure you'd notice a difference driving PCCB and non-PCCB back-to-back, but I doubt you would think you have to have a PCCB.
When I put a fresh set of Walter Rohrl Bilsteins on the 964 the difference was way bigger than the difference from wheel mass, and even a change of one click to damper settings was more noticeable.
David
Adrian-9iafn said:
Interested to see if this is noticeable and worth the extra for this (Plenty of opinions on the other advantages/disadvantages)
I can honestly say its not worth it. I have ceramics on my 991.1 RS and optioned steels on my 991.2 GT3, the steels have more feel at the limit without question. The fractional difference you may gain on turn in is far outweighed by the braking confidence you get with the steels. You also save a few quid 
brake dust is the only down side you £6K buys you a lot of time with a detailer! They will last longer on the road and track and you won’t see any brake dust but there is no braking benefit in terms of stopping distances and on the lap the car will be no quicker. There is no speed benefit in terms of turn in. They are susceptible to damage through stone or other impacts and when tracking must be cooled carefully after each stint. Due to modern refurb techniques they are more economically viable than when first launched but I wouldn’t be buying them if I were looking for an improvement in performance or to track the car regularly
Interesting responses, as I am buying a 991.1 GT3 secondhand I think I will see if I drive one with and one without I notice. I guess it's going to be very good to very very good in a comparison in any case
Seems that PCCB cars are perhaps £3-5k more along with other additional options that often get ticked at the same time. Ironically I love the look of the leather and carbon in say a Turbo. But actually prefer none of that in a GT3, most PCCB cars have leather ticked as well.
Seems that PCCB cars are perhaps £3-5k more along with other additional options that often get ticked at the same time. Ironically I love the look of the leather and carbon in say a Turbo. But actually prefer none of that in a GT3, most PCCB cars have leather ticked as well.
biggest benefit of PCCB is lack of brake dust!
Id guess theres a fair proportion of owners who specced it because they wanted yellow calipers, or lack of brake dust lol. Most of these cars dont get driven to ever feel the difference.
Im going for PCCB's next time! The black GTS wheels look filthly after 1/2 mile lol!
Id guess theres a fair proportion of owners who specced it because they wanted yellow calipers, or lack of brake dust lol. Most of these cars dont get driven to ever feel the difference.
Im going for PCCB's next time! The black GTS wheels look filthly after 1/2 mile lol!
mikeh501 said:
biggest benefit of PCCB is lack of brake dust!
Id guess theres a fair proportion of owners who specced it because they wanted yellow calipers, or lack of brake dust lol. Most of these cars dont get driven to ever feel the difference.
Im going for PCCB's next time! The black GTS wheels look filthly after 1/2 mile lol!
what is a big winner is the wheels don't get pitted from the dust, that's worth £6k alone :-)Id guess theres a fair proportion of owners who specced it because they wanted yellow calipers, or lack of brake dust lol. Most of these cars dont get driven to ever feel the difference.
Im going for PCCB's next time! The black GTS wheels look filthly after 1/2 mile lol!
wheels take me over an hour to clean and I also have to buy a lot of fall out remover !!! that time and those products over 3 years cost more than £6k :-)
I did not spec them on the GT4 as the cost was to big a % of the over all car (but on a GT4 you can take the wheels off and seal them), when a GT3 fetches £190k people expect to get the big shiny brakes added to this center locks it's not easy to remove the wheels to seal or clean them fully.
I have been looking at the AMG GTR and it would have to have the ceramic option.
Twinfan said:
I'm sensing most buyers buy PCCBs for show rather than go...
I think it's just expected on cars over £100k, you don't buy a £5k diamond ring on white gold, you go platinum. but you might go white gold on a £1k ring.I would not touch a AMG GTR with steels and I would say they just don't sell.
Koln-RS said:
There are clear benefits for road use, and many people buying a Porsche will want the optimum spec
Clear benefits? I'm personally not so sure. The only one would be longevity but how many people own the car long enough to achieve that benefit?Porsche911R said:
I think it's just expected on cars over £100k.
Very probably, some sort of badge/trophy.Agreed.
There are some performance benefits on a road car (longevity)
There are some feel and feedback benefits on a track car but it is marginal. PCCBs on track cars have limited lives (2-3+ years on heavily tracked cars) but since most people chop their car in within 2 years for the next model it is someone else's problem down the line.
There are aesthetic and lifestyle benefits (low dust and yellow callipers)
...but and probably the biggest point is that on new cars at £130k+, most people do it for value retention/ease of sale. Once upon a time you would say you never get your money back, but I think nowadays you get most of your money back plus all the above benefits in the meantime.
There are some performance benefits on a road car (longevity)
There are some feel and feedback benefits on a track car but it is marginal. PCCBs on track cars have limited lives (2-3+ years on heavily tracked cars) but since most people chop their car in within 2 years for the next model it is someone else's problem down the line.
There are aesthetic and lifestyle benefits (low dust and yellow callipers)
...but and probably the biggest point is that on new cars at £130k+, most people do it for value retention/ease of sale. Once upon a time you would say you never get your money back, but I think nowadays you get most of your money back plus all the above benefits in the meantime.
Steve Rance said:
I'd go steel and get my wheels protected with a decent ceramic coating. I have it on my cars and the brake dust falls off with a pressure washer. Less than 5 mnutes and they are all clean. £6K to help keep your wheels clean does not work for me - even with Man maths
+1Porsche911R said:
Yes
turn in is far faster.
go buy a bike wheel for £20 then go buy a £1k Carbon wheel, spin it in your hand and then try and change it's direction.
light wheels and PCCB are an amazing feeling.
everyone understands this question is does it make a significant diff in a road car with all the other bits , the weight of the car on the wheels and the electric steering in between you and the wheels. opinion is its marginal to unnoticeable depending who you ask.turn in is far faster.
go buy a bike wheel for £20 then go buy a £1k Carbon wheel, spin it in your hand and then try and change it's direction.
light wheels and PCCB are an amazing feeling.
Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 24th May 08:37
btw why don't Porsche offer PCCBs on the front only as an option??
Twinfan said:
Clear benefits? I'm personally not so sure.
It is clear to be fair as lighter weight is always a better thing. All things being equal, one would always want the lighter option and while 20kg doesn't sound a lot in the context of a 1400kg car, it all adds up in the end. Ultimately on track a lighter car would always be that bit quicker too (just see how obsessed racing teams are about weight). People get a bit sanctimonious about their choice really, if one likes the (imo slightly more boosted) feel of ceramics and the cost is acceptable, by all mean go for it but otherwise steels are perfectly acceptable and for track use (where tenths of a laptime aren't oh so important
) definitely preferable if it's a long term car.Too many people becoming far too obsessed with the 'lightweight' ethos. I know of someone rejecting a 991T because he'd spec'd privacy glass and when the car arrived he found out that lightweight glass was deleted if you ordered 'privacy' glass! We must be talking 5kg. People refusing to spec LED headlights because they are heavier than standard 
. These car's arn't exactly light nowadays anyway - If you want the lightest GT3 then you spec it without radio, leather, standard lights etc..
Buy PCCBs if you like the colour and want easier to clean wheels, but don't let the marketing have you believe you're going to feel better turn in etc. There is the argument that for road use they'll last longer, but damage a disc and you can throw that saving right out the window
. These car's arn't exactly light nowadays anyway - If you want the lightest GT3 then you spec it without radio, leather, standard lights etc..Buy PCCBs if you like the colour and want easier to clean wheels, but don't let the marketing have you believe you're going to feel better turn in etc. There is the argument that for road use they'll last longer, but damage a disc and you can throw that saving right out the window
Phooey said:
Too many people becoming far too obsessed with the 'lightweight' ethos. I know of someone rejecting a 991T because he'd spec'd privacy glass and when the car arrived he found out that lightweight glass was deleted if you ordered 'privacy' glass! We must be talking 5kg. People refusing to spec LED headlights because they are heavier than standard . These car's arn't exactly light nowadays anyway - If you want the lightest GT3 then you spec it without radio, leather, standard lights etc..
Buy PCCBs if you like the colour and want easier to clean wheels, but don't let the marketing have you believe you're going to feel better turn in etc. There is the argument that for road use they'll last longer, but damage a disc and you can throw that saving right out the window
That’s made me laugh - someone rejected a T because of a 5kg extra weight, and avoiding LED lights for weight reasons. Self importance and delusion gone mad. I always spec PCCB because I like them, like the lack of dust, and like the yellow calipers and what they represent, but I don’t kid myself that I am a good enough driver to actually NEED the dynamic benefits that they bring. Some on this forum (Steve Rance on this very thread for example) will be more than good enough behind the wheel to tell the difference, but most of us mere mortals are made to look good by these cars, not held back by a few extra kgs . These car's arn't exactly light nowadays anyway - If you want the lightest GT3 then you spec it without radio, leather, standard lights etc..Buy PCCBs if you like the colour and want easier to clean wheels, but don't let the marketing have you believe you're going to feel better turn in etc. There is the argument that for road use they'll last longer, but damage a disc and you can throw that saving right out the window
If hydraulic power steering offers more feel than electronic ... anything that can be done to improve steering feel must be a plus.
In addition nobody has mentioned suspension patter ... even smooth surfaces become bumpy at speed.
How can keeping the wheels on the road or track surface for more of the time, make no difference ??
In addition nobody has mentioned suspension patter ... even smooth surfaces become bumpy at speed.
How can keeping the wheels on the road or track surface for more of the time, make no difference ??
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