RE: What is a 'hot V' configuration? PH Explains

RE: What is a 'hot V' configuration? PH Explains

Sunday 27th May 2018

What is a 'hot V' configuration? PH Explains

How relocating the turbochargers of a V-type engine can deliver a plethora of benefits



An engine with a 'hot V' is a V-type powerplant - such as a V6 or V8 - that has its turbocharger, or turbochargers, mounted between the cylinder heads. The flow of fresh charge and exhaust gas through the cylinder heads is also reversed in hot V engines, so that waste gases are dumped into manifolds sited between the heads.

Opting for this configuration offers a range of benefits, including an engine that's far more compact. Consequently, hot vee designs are often employed by those developing high-performance sports cars which benefit from low bonnet height and a low centre of gravity. Some manufacturers, such as Mercedes-Benz, refer to this particular engine configuration as a 'hot inside V'.


How is a hot vee configured?
In a conventional twin-turbo vee engine, the turbochargers would usually be positioned outside of the cylinder heads. Fresh charge would flow through the intake manifold at the top of the engine, through the intake ports and into the cylinders. Waste gases would then flow out of the exhaust ports on the outside faces of the cylinder heads - then on into the exhaust manifolds and turbochargers.

A hot V set-up is the other way around; fresh charge is fed into the cylinder heads through separate intake manifolds bolted to what would conventionally be the exhaust ports, then exhaust gases are delivered into manifolds in the middle of the vee. These gases are then fed into the engine's turbo - or turbochargers - before being routed down the back of the engine and into the rest of the exhaust system.

What are the benefits of a 'hot vee' configuration?
There are several key advantages to utilising a hot V, the most prominent of which is packaging. In a conventional turbocharged vee engine, the placement of the turbochargers outside of the cylinder heads results in wide powerplant. Consequently, the increased width of the overall engine assembly makes it harder for manufacturers to position the engine low in the chassis. This has a negative impact on the car's centre of gravity and, depending on other design elements, may result in the manufacturer having to move the engine forwards or backwards to avoid clashing with other assemblies. This, again, may compromise the car's weight distribution.

Mounting the turbochargers between the banks of the engine results in a far narrower, more compact arrangement. Although it raises the centre of gravity of the engine itself, it gives the manufacturer the ability to site the engine in an overall far more advantageous position. This is of key consideration for those developing high-performance sports cars or supercars.


The plumbing required for a hot V can also be far simpler and shorter than a conventional set-up, particularly if water-to-air intercoolers are used. This can improve the engine's efficiency and quicken its responses; the exhaust manifolds for a hot V are typically very compact, for one thing, resulting in a shorter path from the exhaust port to the turbocharger's turbine. This means less exhaust energy is lost before the gases hit the turbine, helping the turbocharger spool more quickly and reducing lag.

Using a hot V is also thermally advantageous. In a conventional turbocharged vee engine, the temperature of the intake manifold is increased by heat rising from the engine below. This raises the temperature the incoming charge, which can reduce performance and - in the worst case - lead to damage through detonation and pre-ignition. In a hot V, the intake manifolds are positioned in far cooler areas. This helps keep reduce any unwanted temperature increase, aiding engine performance, while the 'hot' side of the engine is concentrated on the top.


A brief history of the hot V in production applications
BMW was the first manufacturer to deliver a production petrol engine that featured a hot vee. Its twin-turbocharged N63 V8, which arrived in 2008, packed a pair of Garrett MGT2256S turbochargers between its heads, which aided it in producing 408hp and 443lb ft. BMW cited several benefits, including improved performance and a more compact package, at the time of launch.

Many diesels have also benefitted from the hot V configuration, such as Ford's 6.7-litre 'Scorpion' Power Stroke diesel V8 - which arrived in production form in 2010.

Some older engines, such as Pontiac's turbocharged 301 V8 from 1980, feature turbochargers mounted atop the engine. These are not 'reverse flow' configurations, however, as fresh charge still flows into the cylinder head from the top and the exhaust gases out of the bottom. Instead, exhaust gases are collected from conventional manifolds then simply piped up to the turbocharger at the top.

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Author
Discussion

Bright Halo

Original Poster:

2,963 posts

235 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
Are there any disadvantages other than the raised centre of gravity?

davepoth

29,395 posts

199 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
Bright Halo said:
Are there any disadvantages other than the raised centre of gravity?
All of the hottest bits of the engine are mounted right next to each other, so managing all of that heat will be a concern.

Murphy16

254 posts

82 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
Does a hot V configuration effect sound? The new AMGs sound great.

rassi

2,451 posts

251 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
Murphy16 said:
Does a hot V configuration effect sound? The new AMGs sound great.
More a question of tuning the exhaust. AMG manages the sound extremely well of their 4 litre V8, BMW unfortunately much less so with the S63 engine.

CedricN

820 posts

145 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
If you can have two twin scrolls in the v you can pair the exhaust runners between the banks with superb separation between the exhaust scavenging. Thus negating much of the drawbacks of a cross plane crank.

Toltec

7,159 posts

223 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
CedricN said:
If you can have two twin scrolls in the v you can pair the exhaust runners between the banks with superb separation between the exhaust scavenging. Thus negating much of the drawbacks of a cross plane crank.
That's quite interesting. smile

Murphy16

254 posts

82 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
rassi said:
More a question of tuning the exhaust. AMG manages the sound extremely well of their 4 litre V8, BMW unfortunately much less so with the S63 engine.
The F10 M5 does sound a little lack lustre, especially higher up the rev range. I take it that's a conventional twin turbo setup? The new M5 is hot V i think, and it sounds much better (but still not as good as a 4 litre E63) and that pains me to say as a BMW fanboy.

2Btoo

3,422 posts

203 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
article said:
Using a hot V is also thermally advantageous. In a conventional turbocharged vee engine, the temperature of the intake manifold is increased by heat rising from the engine below. This raises the temperature the incoming charge, which can reduce performance and - in the worst case - lead to damage through detonation and pre-ignition. In a hot V, the intake manifolds are positioned in far cooler areas.
Surely the turbo bolts onto both the intake as well as the exhaust plumbing, so this arrangement means you are running the intake path through the middle of a concentrated hotspot in the engine. This will lead to the inlet charge being heated quite considerably requiring more intercooling to cool it back down.

Have I missed something?

gazza285

9,806 posts

208 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
2Btoo said:
Surely the turbo bolts onto both the intake as well as the exhaust plumbing, so this arrangement means you are running the intake path through the middle of a concentrated hotspot in the engine. This will lead to the inlet charge being heated quite considerably requiring more intercooling to cool it back down.

Have I missed something?
The intakes and compressors are still at the front of the engine, so drawing cool air in, but the turbos themselves might be heated more, so I can see your point. The turbos are more efficient closer to the engine, which will offset a slight increase in intake temperature, and who doesn't like big intercoolers...

Scottie - NW

1,288 posts

233 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
Bright Halo said:
Are there any disadvantages other than the raised centre of gravity?
I'd guess it makes after market turbo upgrades for tuning no longer viable for the majority.

PHMatt

608 posts

148 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
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With the cars they're fitted too usually being £100k motors pushing out 600bhp plus, it's probably best the tuners don't get their filthy mitts on them

Onehp

1,617 posts

283 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
Murphy16 said:
The F10 M5 does sound a little lack lustre, especially higher up the rev range. I take it that's a conventional twin turbo setup? The new M5 is hot V i think, and it sounds much better (but still not as good as a 4 litre E63) and that pains me to say as a BMW fanboy.
No, the F10 is one of the early hot-V engines, moreover using two twin scroll turbos each scroll taking their gasses from each bank giving maximum exhaust pulse seperation, aiding scavenging and response. As Cedric already mentioned above. So more a matter of exhaust tuning for a nice sound...

Onehp

1,617 posts

283 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
2Btoo said:
article said:
Using a hot V is also thermally advantageous. In a conventional turbocharged vee engine, the temperature of the intake manifold is increased by heat rising from the engine below. This raises the temperature the incoming charge, which can reduce performance and - in the worst case - lead to damage through detonation and pre-ignition. In a hot V, the intake manifolds are positioned in far cooler areas.
Surely the turbo bolts onto both the intake as well as the exhaust plumbing, so this arrangement means you are running the intake path through the middle of a concentrated hotspot in the engine. This will lead to the inlet charge being heated quite considerably requiring more intercooling to cool it back down.

Have I missed something?
As you say it always passes the hot turbochargers, then it is cooled in the IC to a certain temperature which can't be lower than ambient. At this point things could be equal. The air goes to the underside in a hot V config, which makes that the air isn't heated much. On a conventional twin turbo, it goes up, to the same place where all engine heat tends to gather...

Beechie

45 posts

72 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
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It seems so advantageous that one wonders why it took them so long to think of it. Either that or the fiendish difficulties involved have been rather overlooked.

Beechie

45 posts

72 months

Sunday 27th May 2018
quotequote all
It seems so advantageous that one wonders why it took them so long to think of it. Either that or the fiendish difficulties involved have been rather overlooked.

Amanitin

420 posts

137 months

Monday 28th May 2018
quotequote all
Beechie said:
It seems so advantageous that one wonders why it took them so long to think of it. Either that or the fiendish difficulties involved have been rather overlooked.
my thoughts too. The article does not explain why it took so long to adopt this configuration. Heat, sure, but there must be other challenges. Cooling the engine in a confined space has been a problem since WWII.

gazza285

9,806 posts

208 months

Monday 28th May 2018
quotequote all
Amanitin said:
Beechie said:
It seems so advantageous that one wonders why it took them so long to think of it. Either that or the fiendish difficulties involved have been rather overlooked.
my thoughts too. The article does not explain why it took so long to adopt this configuration. Heat, sure, but there must be other challenges. Cooling the engine in a confined space has been a problem since WWII.
It might be because there hasn't been that much demand for a twin turbo V8 in a front engine layout.

RSchneider

215 posts

164 months

Monday 28th May 2018
quotequote all
Could be because turbocharged V8 are rather new for Europe, and in the U.S. I can't recall any OEM doing that before either. I might be wrong but as soon as the German OEMs started building turbocharged V8 they arrived at the hot V already with the second generation.

Leins

9,461 posts

148 months

Monday 28th May 2018
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Maserati were doing front-engined twin-turbo V8s almost 30 years ago

Rawwr

22,722 posts

234 months

Monday 28th May 2018
quotequote all
How is this different to a Hot Carl?