Fitting folding buckets from a LHD car
Discussion
I have the chance of buying a set of folding buckets to replace the 18-way sports/adative seats in my 991.1 GT3. Only thing is - the seats I'm after are out of a LHD car and mine is (unsurprisingly) RHD.
I was about to commit to them when I picked up that folding buckets might be 'handed', meaning that a LHD set might not work in a RHD car. I struggled to understand why this might be until I thought about airbags and occupant snesors; presumably the passenger seat has a sensor whereas the driver seat doesn't (on the basis that if the car is moving, it's got someone in it who's sitting behind the wheel!).
Can anyone shed any light on this? Is this a real issue? And even if the seats are 'handed' ex-factory, can the passenger occupancy sensor be switched across so that it can be located on the LH/near-side/passenger seat in a RHD installation?
James
I was about to commit to them when I picked up that folding buckets might be 'handed', meaning that a LHD set might not work in a RHD car. I struggled to understand why this might be until I thought about airbags and occupant snesors; presumably the passenger seat has a sensor whereas the driver seat doesn't (on the basis that if the car is moving, it's got someone in it who's sitting behind the wheel!).
Can anyone shed any light on this? Is this a real issue? And even if the seats are 'handed' ex-factory, can the passenger occupancy sensor be switched across so that it can be located on the LH/near-side/passenger seat in a RHD installation?
James
Thanks Woolyjoe. It looks as though I was right to suspect that there might be an issue here; all good if it is straightforward to swap the occupancy sensor over from one seat to another but I guess I'm just a bit nervous in case the sensor (or its wiring) is embedded in the RHS seat, such that it might not be possible to move it to the LHS seat.
It would be an expensive experiment if it proved to be impossible!
Anyone else got any experience or insight in this area? Anyone got their buckets out of ther car at the moment so we could get some photos of the resepective RHS and LHS key areas?
James
It would be an expensive experiment if it proved to be impossible!
Anyone else got any experience or insight in this area? Anyone got their buckets out of ther car at the moment so we could get some photos of the resepective RHS and LHS key areas?
James
Not sure I'm fully sorted on this yet!
I'm not sure what type of occupant sensor is fitted to the passenger seat on the folding buckets. Is it a conventional film/pressure pad type (that is sandwiched between the seat cushion and the shell moulding)? Or is it a more sophisticated type that is somehow monitoring loads at each of the seat mounting points (the four corners)?
Really frustrating that it's proving so hard to get to the bottom of this! Just want to make sure that swapping over the sensor (whatever type) from the RH seat (the passenger seat in a LHD car) to the LH seat for UK use is a DIY job...
Any further thoughts or experience?
James
I'm not sure what type of occupant sensor is fitted to the passenger seat on the folding buckets. Is it a conventional film/pressure pad type (that is sandwiched between the seat cushion and the shell moulding)? Or is it a more sophisticated type that is somehow monitoring loads at each of the seat mounting points (the four corners)?
Really frustrating that it's proving so hard to get to the bottom of this! Just want to make sure that swapping over the sensor (whatever type) from the RH seat (the passenger seat in a LHD car) to the LH seat for UK use is a DIY job...
Any further thoughts or experience?
James
NBTBRV8 said:
I have had a good look through the parts list and can't find the seat occupancy detector listed at all for the folding buckets.
Interesting... So that would mean that, once the key is in the gnition, the passenger airbag is always 'live' with the bucket seats, whether they are occupied (by a child or an adult) or not. In which case it wouldn;t make any difference whether the seats come from a LHD or a RHD car.It's just that it's quite a bit to spend to get it wrong!
James
short-shift said:
Interesting... So that would mean that, once the key is in the gnition, the passenger airbag is always 'live' with the bucket seats, whether they are occupied (by a child or an adult) or not. In which case it wouldn;t make any difference whether the seats come from a LHD or a RHD car.
It's just that it's quite a bit to spend to get it wrong!
James
My educated guess would be that you'd need to swap the main seat plug over between the seats and get the pin configuration right. It's just that it's quite a bit to spend to get it wrong!
James
short-shift said:
Interesting... So that would mean that, once the key is in the gnition, the passenger airbag is always 'live' with the bucket seats, whether they are occupied (by a child or an adult) or not. In which case it wouldn;t make any difference whether the seats come from a LHD or a RHD car.
It's just that it's quite a bit to spend to get it wrong!
James
This is the only reference I can find, item 7.It's just that it's quite a bit to spend to get it wrong!
James
https://nemigaparts.com/cat_spares/pet/porsche/gt3...
NBTBRV8 said:
Hah - we're on the same page! I have been looking at V-Pages to try to get to the bottom of this but came across the 'nemigaparts' site as well and found it easier to navigate than the official Porsche documents.So - the 'nemigaparts' page does tend to suggest that 991 GT3's have not been fitted with passenger occupancy sensors (although earlier generation cars fitted with the folding buckets, more specifically over the 2007-12 period, were fitted with sensors). This means that, on 991 GT3s fitted with folding buckets, the passenger airbags are always 'live' whenever the car is keyed-on. This doesn't seem to be linked to a specific territory (ie: there is no reference to this approach being US-spec only, etc).
If correct, this would make fitment of a LHD set into my RHD car quite straightforward with possibly the only action needed being to 'code-off' the passenger occupancy sensor using PIWIS (and that only necessary if the car is expecting the passenger sensor to be present, based on its current configuration for the 18-way adjustables). That said, I'm now not even sure if there is a sensor in the 18-ways that are currently fitted, either...!!
Begs the question, though, as to why separate LHD and RHD seat-sets are available; from the sleuth work carried out so far it would seem that there are no differences at all between LHD and RHD configurations.
Although I'm keen to bottom this out for personal reasons, it's hopefully worth writing this here to help others who may travel down the same road in the future.
James
I don't think there's ever been a sensing mat used with the folding buckets. During the 2006-12 (997/987) period, these seats were fitted with the 'advanced airbag' which used a three-stage occupancy sensor on the passenger side (empty; child or adult occupant). This seems to have been achieved with some form of pressure or load sensitive transducer that was integrated into each the four seat mounting points and connected to a dedicated control module that was located under the seat-base moulding, towards the front edge of the seat.
As far as I can see, this method of occupant sensing was dropped with the 991/981 generation - there is no reference to the system anywhere I can find for these cars - and, indeed, no reference to occupant sensing of any type with buckets from this time on. This means (if I'm right!) that the passenger-side bags are always armed when the car is live. This would also explain the many references that seem to have been introduced with the 991/981 cars, to "Do not use child restraint systems" with bucket seats.
As I say, this all points to the absence of a passenger occupancy sensor in 991/981 generation vehicles which suggests that it should be fine to fit a LHD seat-set to a RHD car but begs the question - why are there LHD and RHD handed seat-sets??
James
As far as I can see, this method of occupant sensing was dropped with the 991/981 generation - there is no reference to the system anywhere I can find for these cars - and, indeed, no reference to occupant sensing of any type with buckets from this time on. This means (if I'm right!) that the passenger-side bags are always armed when the car is live. This would also explain the many references that seem to have been introduced with the 991/981 cars, to "Do not use child restraint systems" with bucket seats.
As I say, this all points to the absence of a passenger occupancy sensor in 991/981 generation vehicles which suggests that it should be fine to fit a LHD seat-set to a RHD car but begs the question - why are there LHD and RHD handed seat-sets??
James
Edited by short-shift on Sunday 16th September 10:28
short-shift said:
I don't think there's ever been a sensing mat used with the folding buckets. During the 2006-12 (997/987) period, these seats were fitted with the 'advanced airbag' which used a three-stage occupancy sensor on the passenger side (empty; child or adult occupant). This seems to have been achieved with some form of pressure or load sensitive transducer that was integrated into each the four seat mounting points and connected to a dedicated control module that was located under the seat-base moulding, towards the front edge of the seat.
As far as I can see, this method of occupant sensing was dropped with the 991/981 generation - there is no reference to the system anywhere I can find for these cars - and, indeed, no reference to occupant sensing of any type with buckets from this time on. This means (if I'm right!) that the passenger-side bags are always armed when the car is live. This would also explain the many references that seem to have been introduced with the 991/981 cars, to "Do not use child restraint systems" with bucket seats.
As I say, this all points to the absence of a passenger occupancy sensor in 991/981 generation vehicles which suggests that it should be fine to fit a LHD seat-set to a RHD car but begs the question - why are there LHD and RHD handed seat-sets??
James
Once again I am guessing it is because the female yellow plug under the seat might be sided? Unclip your existing ones and have a look.As far as I can see, this method of occupant sensing was dropped with the 991/981 generation - there is no reference to the system anywhere I can find for these cars - and, indeed, no reference to occupant sensing of any type with buckets from this time on. This means (if I'm right!) that the passenger-side bags are always armed when the car is live. This would also explain the many references that seem to have been introduced with the 991/981 cars, to "Do not use child restraint systems" with bucket seats.
As I say, this all points to the absence of a passenger occupancy sensor in 991/981 generation vehicles which suggests that it should be fine to fit a LHD seat-set to a RHD car but begs the question - why are there LHD and RHD handed seat-sets??
James
Edited by short-shift on Sunday 16th September 10:28
short-shift said:
I don't think there's ever been a sensing mat used with the folding buckets. During the 2006-12 (997/987) period, these seats were fitted with the 'advanced airbag' which used a three-stage occupancy sensor on the passenger side (empty; child or adult occupant). This seems to have been achieved with some form of pressure or load sensitive transducer that was integrated into each the four seat mounting points and connected to a dedicated control module that was located under the seat-base moulding, towards the front edge of the seat.
As far as I can see, this method of occupant sensing was dropped with the 991/981 generation - there is no reference to the system anywhere I can find for these cars - and, indeed, no reference to occupant sensing of any type with buckets from this time on. This means (if I'm right!) that the passenger-side bags are always armed when the car is live. This would also explain the many references that seem to have been introduced with the 991/981 cars, to "Do not use child restraint systems" with bucket seats.
As I say, this all points to the absence of a passenger occupancy sensor in 991/981 generation vehicles which suggests that it should be fine to fit a LHD seat-set to a RHD car but begs the question - why are there LHD and RHD handed seat-sets??
James
Does the car not see the seat belt is plugged in and switch the airbags on via a sensor/switch in the seat belt stalk, rather than using an occupancy sensor per se ?As far as I can see, this method of occupant sensing was dropped with the 991/981 generation - there is no reference to the system anywhere I can find for these cars - and, indeed, no reference to occupant sensing of any type with buckets from this time on. This means (if I'm right!) that the passenger-side bags are always armed when the car is live. This would also explain the many references that seem to have been introduced with the 991/981 cars, to "Do not use child restraint systems" with bucket seats.
As I say, this all points to the absence of a passenger occupancy sensor in 991/981 generation vehicles which suggests that it should be fine to fit a LHD seat-set to a RHD car but begs the question - why are there LHD and RHD handed seat-sets??
James
The seat belt stalks appear to have wiring coming from them in this video (and the airbag module is also shown under the passenger seat) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPhS0JppLs
Thanks Slippydiff
The seats you have linked to are US/Canada spec 987/997-generation and have the 'advanced airbag' system which can be identified by the black box (control module) for the weight-sensing system, located under the passenger seat - the RH seat in this instance since the seats are from a LHD/US-spec vehicle.
My understanding is that this control module determines the presence and weight of an occupant via the load/pressure sensing transducers that were integrated into each of the four passenger seat mounting points during this era - but this approach has not been carried through into the 991 generation (and, indeed, as far as I can tell, there is no occupant sensing of any form in 991 generation bucket seats).
Worth emphasising that the role of the sensors (when they are present as was the case during the 987/997 erea) is to switch-out the passenger airbag system under certain conditions (eg: when a lightweight occupant, or child, is detected) which is fail-safe. The sensors do not turn-on the systems as this would not be a fail-safe approach; they are live unless turned-off. So - if I'm right - there's no way that the passenger bags can be turned-off in 991 generation bucket seat installations, which would be consistent with the warning notices in the car advising against fitting child retraint systems to bucket seats.
Intriguing to piece this together...
James
The seats you have linked to are US/Canada spec 987/997-generation and have the 'advanced airbag' system which can be identified by the black box (control module) for the weight-sensing system, located under the passenger seat - the RH seat in this instance since the seats are from a LHD/US-spec vehicle.
My understanding is that this control module determines the presence and weight of an occupant via the load/pressure sensing transducers that were integrated into each of the four passenger seat mounting points during this era - but this approach has not been carried through into the 991 generation (and, indeed, as far as I can tell, there is no occupant sensing of any form in 991 generation bucket seats).
Worth emphasising that the role of the sensors (when they are present as was the case during the 987/997 erea) is to switch-out the passenger airbag system under certain conditions (eg: when a lightweight occupant, or child, is detected) which is fail-safe. The sensors do not turn-on the systems as this would not be a fail-safe approach; they are live unless turned-off. So - if I'm right - there's no way that the passenger bags can be turned-off in 991 generation bucket seat installations, which would be consistent with the warning notices in the car advising against fitting child retraint systems to bucket seats.
Intriguing to piece this together...
James
Edited by short-shift on Saturday 29th September 07:12
paralla said:
Lots of investigation of the effect of installing the new seats but have you also considered what are the implications of removing the 18 way adjustable seats? Do you have memory package? Will that or something else have a hissy fit if it sees the wrong seats?
Luckily, that won't be a problem - it's a GT3 so no memory function...James
Aha - I think I've found the answer (as to why the seats appear to be handed), if not yet the definitive "it will be OK to fit LHD seats in a RHD car" position.
It's to do with the seat belt buckle (or 'short-end' as they are sometimes called). On the driver's side only (on non-US spec cars) this carries an electrical cable/connection to the seat belt warning circuit - which shows as the light on the dash that illuminates on key-on and goes off when the driver's belt is buckled up. The passenger side buckle has no such functionality (so fastening or unfastening the passenger buckle does not illuminate the dash light in a GT3 - as far as I can tell). And it is these buckles/short-ends, fitted to the seats, that effectively determine whether the seat-set is handed for LHD or RHD.
I still need to work out if that's a simple thing to change-over, from one seat to the other. Physically, it's no problem, but I need to understand where the cable from the driver's-side buckle connects in. I think it goes to a connector under the seat that looks to be common on both seats and this, in turn, is plumbed-in to the main seat connector (the big yellow one) which is common across both seats - in which case I think it will be interchangeable.
Inching forward (for anyone else who might be remotley interested!!).
James
It's to do with the seat belt buckle (or 'short-end' as they are sometimes called). On the driver's side only (on non-US spec cars) this carries an electrical cable/connection to the seat belt warning circuit - which shows as the light on the dash that illuminates on key-on and goes off when the driver's belt is buckled up. The passenger side buckle has no such functionality (so fastening or unfastening the passenger buckle does not illuminate the dash light in a GT3 - as far as I can tell). And it is these buckles/short-ends, fitted to the seats, that effectively determine whether the seat-set is handed for LHD or RHD.
I still need to work out if that's a simple thing to change-over, from one seat to the other. Physically, it's no problem, but I need to understand where the cable from the driver's-side buckle connects in. I think it goes to a connector under the seat that looks to be common on both seats and this, in turn, is plumbed-in to the main seat connector (the big yellow one) which is common across both seats - in which case I think it will be interchangeable.
Inching forward (for anyone else who might be remotley interested!!).
James
Edited by short-shift on Monday 17th September 20:11
short-shift said:
Aha - I think I've found the answer (as to why the seats appear to be handed), if not yet the definitive "it will be OK to fit LHD seats in a RHD car" position.
It's to do with the seat belt buckle (or 'short-end' as they are sometimes called). On the driver's side only (on non-US spec cars) this carries an electrical cable/connection to the seat belt warning circuit - which shows as the light on the dash that illuminates on key-on and goes off when the driver's belt is buckeld up. The passenger side buckle has no such functionality (so fastening or unfastening the passenger buckle does not illuminate the dash light in a GT3 - as far as I can tell). And it is these buckels/short-ends, fitted to the seats, that effectively determine whether the seat set is handed for LHD or RHD.
I still need to work out if that's a simple thing to change-over, from one seat to the other. Physically, it's no problem, but I need to understand where the cable from the driver's-side buckle connects in. I think it goes to a connector under the seat that looks to be common on both seats and this, in turn, is plumbed-in to the main seat connector (the big yellow one) - in which case I think it will be interchangeable.
Inching forward (for anyone else who might be remotley interested!!).
James
It's to do with the seat belt buckle (or 'short-end' as they are sometimes called). On the driver's side only (on non-US spec cars) this carries an electrical cable/connection to the seat belt warning circuit - which shows as the light on the dash that illuminates on key-on and goes off when the driver's belt is buckeld up. The passenger side buckle has no such functionality (so fastening or unfastening the passenger buckle does not illuminate the dash light in a GT3 - as far as I can tell). And it is these buckels/short-ends, fitted to the seats, that effectively determine whether the seat set is handed for LHD or RHD.
I still need to work out if that's a simple thing to change-over, from one seat to the other. Physically, it's no problem, but I need to understand where the cable from the driver's-side buckle connects in. I think it goes to a connector under the seat that looks to be common on both seats and this, in turn, is plumbed-in to the main seat connector (the big yellow one) - in which case I think it will be interchangeable.
Inching forward (for anyone else who might be remotley interested!!).
James
Ok, I have to 'fess up here, because I'm intrigued by your comments about the 997/987 seats having a load sensing system. I removed the drivers seat (and that might be the caveat) from my Cayman R to fit a set of lowering brackets (truth be known, I think the folding carbon buckets are a triumph of style over substance, but I digress) . The seats are mounted high (far too high for my 5ft 11" frame) and the more I looked at them and the mounting frame/side mounts, I realised that the design of the seat base totally compromises the ability to get them significantly lower.
I bought a set of lowering brackets from the States, they lowered the seat no more than 10-12mm, and when I looked at the lowered brackets installed, it became clear that the seat base/shell design meant that was the maximum the seat base could be dropped between the side mounts without it fouling them.
I entertained removing the siding runners and doing a fixed install, but having checked the gap between the underneath of the seat and the car's floorpan, I wasn't convinced there was sufficient clearance to lower the seat the height of the runners.
When I removed the seats I wasn't left with the impression it would be possible to incorporate any kind of load sensing transducer/s into the mounting frame. In short, there didn't appear to be room
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it couldn't/hasn't been done, just that I'm dubious ...
I await your further investigations.
Hi Slippydiff
I know there's a broad range of opinions on Porsche's differing bucket seat styles but for me the folding bucket (or 'sports bucket seat' as Posrche call it) does the job much better than the 918-style (the so-called 'lightweight bucket seat, or LBS). I'm reasonably short (5'8") so having the slightly increased height of the folding bucket works well for me; on the other hand I find the 918-style to be too upright to be comfortable - and near impossible to use when wearing a helmet (unless one likes looking into the footwell a lot, with one's head pushed down...). So I'm keener on the folding style than the more modern 918 version.
Back to sensors; I was pretty sure about what I've written above about the transducer-type pressure sensors - the trail for this is in PETS or V-pages, where with a bit of detecitive work and a lot of perseverance one can identify the mounting components and wiring that are specifc to this type of occupancy-sensor spec; for instance, have a search for 997 521 281 00 and 997 521 182 00 and play 'spot the difference'. I have to say though, that on reflection it is possible that this approach was used only in US-spec cars during the 987/997 era. In which case, maybe the folding buckets that we had in the UK during that period (and possibly elesewhere in LHD/European markets, etc) were also devoid of any type of occupant sensing...??
Talk about reverse engineering (as in, trying to work back to the specification and engineering logic from observations about what is now in the field!).
But I'm pretty confident that I should be able to make the LHD set of folding bucket seats work correcty in my RHD car, given a bit of swapping-over of the driver and passenger buckles and associated electical connectors. I mean, what could possibly go wrong??
James
I know there's a broad range of opinions on Porsche's differing bucket seat styles but for me the folding bucket (or 'sports bucket seat' as Posrche call it) does the job much better than the 918-style (the so-called 'lightweight bucket seat, or LBS). I'm reasonably short (5'8") so having the slightly increased height of the folding bucket works well for me; on the other hand I find the 918-style to be too upright to be comfortable - and near impossible to use when wearing a helmet (unless one likes looking into the footwell a lot, with one's head pushed down...). So I'm keener on the folding style than the more modern 918 version.
Back to sensors; I was pretty sure about what I've written above about the transducer-type pressure sensors - the trail for this is in PETS or V-pages, where with a bit of detecitive work and a lot of perseverance one can identify the mounting components and wiring that are specifc to this type of occupancy-sensor spec; for instance, have a search for 997 521 281 00 and 997 521 182 00 and play 'spot the difference'. I have to say though, that on reflection it is possible that this approach was used only in US-spec cars during the 987/997 era. In which case, maybe the folding buckets that we had in the UK during that period (and possibly elesewhere in LHD/European markets, etc) were also devoid of any type of occupant sensing...??
Talk about reverse engineering (as in, trying to work back to the specification and engineering logic from observations about what is now in the field!).
But I'm pretty confident that I should be able to make the LHD set of folding bucket seats work correcty in my RHD car, given a bit of swapping-over of the driver and passenger buckles and associated electical connectors. I mean, what could possibly go wrong??
James
Edited by short-shift on Monday 17th September 21:42
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