Porsche 911 Investment Toy
Discussion
Hi everyone, new to pistonheads so please bear with me and I apologise if this kind of thing has been gone over many times!
I have always been keen on a Porsche but have never owned one as have never really been able to afford it. I have now been looking to get something to both enjoy but also to hopefully not lose much money on so also looking at an investment.
The 911 has always been the most appealing to me, and I have been looking at the 996 models around the 2000 - 2002 period.
Can anybody give me any pointers on what to look for when I view these models and what kind of value these should be pitched at? Do I assume that the mileage has a huge or little effect on the price, and would anybody anticipate a 911 996 Carrera (for example) to be holding the value over the next 5 years?
Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Thank you.
I have always been keen on a Porsche but have never owned one as have never really been able to afford it. I have now been looking to get something to both enjoy but also to hopefully not lose much money on so also looking at an investment.
The 911 has always been the most appealing to me, and I have been looking at the 996 models around the 2000 - 2002 period.
Can anybody give me any pointers on what to look for when I view these models and what kind of value these should be pitched at? Do I assume that the mileage has a huge or little effect on the price, and would anybody anticipate a 911 996 Carrera (for example) to be holding the value over the next 5 years?
Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Thank you.
cars are not investments.
running costs and replacement of parts along with everything else means a car is not to be looked at as an investment in any way shape or form.
even the best cars take a couple of k PA to just keep In the garage more if you have to buy on finance.
Prices on all cars atm are falling, and hence you just need to buy a car and enjoy it.
New ltd ed cars you might come out over a couple of years with free motoring but that's tough game esp if you have to take out finance to fund and act want to add miles to them.
running costs and replacement of parts along with everything else means a car is not to be looked at as an investment in any way shape or form.
even the best cars take a couple of k PA to just keep In the garage more if you have to buy on finance.
Prices on all cars atm are falling, and hence you just need to buy a car and enjoy it.
New ltd ed cars you might come out over a couple of years with free motoring but that's tough game esp if you have to take out finance to fund and act want to add miles to them.
I'd be careful about that as the running costs on a 15+ year old 911 might well be more material than the depreciation
as said above, they were a lot cheaper in the past and entering the market now, I'd at least factor in possible depreciation. If it keeps its value all the better for it, but I would not bank on that
as said above, they were a lot cheaper in the past and entering the market now, I'd at least factor in possible depreciation. If it keeps its value all the better for it, but I would not bank on that
Porsche911R said:
cars are not investments.
running costs and replacement of parts along with everything else means a car is not to be looked at as an investment in any way shape or form.
even the best cars take a couple of k PA to just keep In the garage more if you have to buy on finance.
Prices on all cars atm are falling, and hence you just need to buy a car and enjoy it.
New ltd ed cars you might come out over a couple of years with free motoring but that's tough game esp if you have to take out finance to fund and act want to add miles to them.
Yep. Agree with all the above. Buy to drive. Not to invest.running costs and replacement of parts along with everything else means a car is not to be looked at as an investment in any way shape or form.
even the best cars take a couple of k PA to just keep In the garage more if you have to buy on finance.
Prices on all cars atm are falling, and hence you just need to buy a car and enjoy it.
New ltd ed cars you might come out over a couple of years with free motoring but that's tough game esp if you have to take out finance to fund and act want to add miles to them.
- I think the 996 is a great car and underrated.
- Don't buy as an 'investment' or without the knowledge that maintenance could occasionally be quite expensive
- Never buy a Porsche that isn't either from a main dealer, very reputable independant dealer or has had a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) by a relaibel source
- Read this thread: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
All very helpful advice and all taken on board, thank you.
The intention was never for it to be purely investment, as I put in my original post I do want to drive it and enjoy it. I was just trying to get an idea if it was possible to own one and not lose a huge amount of money on it, with a possible potential of maybe breaking even.
Anyway, all taken on board and much appreciated, thank you.
The intention was never for it to be purely investment, as I put in my original post I do want to drive it and enjoy it. I was just trying to get an idea if it was possible to own one and not lose a huge amount of money on it, with a possible potential of maybe breaking even.
Anyway, all taken on board and much appreciated, thank you.
The OP was fairly clear on what he is looking for I think. A 911 to own and enjoy but hopefully that wont cost arms and legs to own, and that might get back most of the outlay.
There is some guess work involved, but if you go the 996 route I would aim at a manual car, as the market prefers these to a Tip, and ideally one that has had some preventative maintenance work on the IMSB issue, again as the market prefers this. Note that any such work should be done by one of the top rated Indys such as Hartech/AutoFarm/Jaz. If you buy such a car well, drive it and maintain it to a good standard, you will sell it well. I recently sold my 2003 C4S for a gain of 20 percent on the capital value, having owned and run it for 4 years and 20k miles. Total servicing costs during the period was £4500 and I nearly broke even!
If you opt for a 997, then all of the above applies to the first generation 997. If you go for second generation 997 which has a completely redesigned engine, you will be paying more like £30 - £40k so these are in another price bracket. The 997 comes in either manual or pdk transmission and I am not sure which one would be best for resale. Most were sold as pdk so maybe the manual would be a good bet if you can find one.
Good luck in the search
Rick
There is some guess work involved, but if you go the 996 route I would aim at a manual car, as the market prefers these to a Tip, and ideally one that has had some preventative maintenance work on the IMSB issue, again as the market prefers this. Note that any such work should be done by one of the top rated Indys such as Hartech/AutoFarm/Jaz. If you buy such a car well, drive it and maintain it to a good standard, you will sell it well. I recently sold my 2003 C4S for a gain of 20 percent on the capital value, having owned and run it for 4 years and 20k miles. Total servicing costs during the period was £4500 and I nearly broke even!
If you opt for a 997, then all of the above applies to the first generation 997. If you go for second generation 997 which has a completely redesigned engine, you will be paying more like £30 - £40k so these are in another price bracket. The 997 comes in either manual or pdk transmission and I am not sure which one would be best for resale. Most were sold as pdk so maybe the manual would be a good bet if you can find one.
Good luck in the search
Rick
Hello
Agree with everything that has been said. Segard makes some great points.
996s still look to be a great buy. Values have risen in recent years, I can’t see them dropping, but i wouldn’t rely on further increases to justify your purchase.
I would choose a 996 based on condition and history, rather mileage. A high mileage car with lots spent on maintenance by a Porsche specialist is better than a low mileage car with patchy service history. 996s are 15-20 years old now, so a lot of major maintenance should have been done or you will need to do! (Think suspension refresh, clutches, exhausts, brake discs, IMS bearings, even a top end engine rebuild). What’s been done has a big impact on values.
As Segard says, the market favours manuals over tiptronic. Purists will say a coupe non-sunroof is the one to have, and values of Coupe are typically higher than convertibles and Targas.
I briefly owned a Targa tiptronic, and found the gearbox sluggish and the glass roof to rattle a bit (but that’s just my opinion before all the Targa-Tip fans starting hating me!)
Interior/exterior colour combinations can affect values, as some people did spec some crazy colour combos. The green full leather and green carpets is quite a bold colour!
Looking at the 996 model range, the GT2 and GT3 have highest values, as limited volume were sold in the UK and they are special cars. After that are the Turbos, which still look great value for the performance. It’s a very quick car even by today’s standards, there are plenty to choose from. After that I’d suggest the C4S is the next most desirable, with the wide body and 4-wheel drive. (The C4S is on my list of cars to own). Then you are into the Carreras. Some people really like the early 3.4 engine (see other forum thread about them).
If you choose to buy privately, then I’d recommend getting an inspection done by a Porsche specialist. Whilst it’s costs a couple of hundred quid, they can confirm what maintenance has been done and what is likely to need in the next couple of years. This can be really helpful to plan your budget.
Whatever model and spec you choose, you’ll have a lot of fun. Enjoy!
Agree with everything that has been said. Segard makes some great points.
996s still look to be a great buy. Values have risen in recent years, I can’t see them dropping, but i wouldn’t rely on further increases to justify your purchase.
I would choose a 996 based on condition and history, rather mileage. A high mileage car with lots spent on maintenance by a Porsche specialist is better than a low mileage car with patchy service history. 996s are 15-20 years old now, so a lot of major maintenance should have been done or you will need to do! (Think suspension refresh, clutches, exhausts, brake discs, IMS bearings, even a top end engine rebuild). What’s been done has a big impact on values.
As Segard says, the market favours manuals over tiptronic. Purists will say a coupe non-sunroof is the one to have, and values of Coupe are typically higher than convertibles and Targas.
I briefly owned a Targa tiptronic, and found the gearbox sluggish and the glass roof to rattle a bit (but that’s just my opinion before all the Targa-Tip fans starting hating me!)
Interior/exterior colour combinations can affect values, as some people did spec some crazy colour combos. The green full leather and green carpets is quite a bold colour!
Looking at the 996 model range, the GT2 and GT3 have highest values, as limited volume were sold in the UK and they are special cars. After that are the Turbos, which still look great value for the performance. It’s a very quick car even by today’s standards, there are plenty to choose from. After that I’d suggest the C4S is the next most desirable, with the wide body and 4-wheel drive. (The C4S is on my list of cars to own). Then you are into the Carreras. Some people really like the early 3.4 engine (see other forum thread about them).
If you choose to buy privately, then I’d recommend getting an inspection done by a Porsche specialist. Whilst it’s costs a couple of hundred quid, they can confirm what maintenance has been done and what is likely to need in the next couple of years. This can be really helpful to plan your budget.
Whatever model and spec you choose, you’ll have a lot of fun. Enjoy!
I bought an early 996 as I was lead to believe the earlier engines are the most robust - hot topic for debate. Something about coated pistons. I'm being careful to not quote too many details which may cause an argument. Some people get very defensive when you start talking about engine robustness or weak points.
The other good news is the earlier cars are simple, light and more analogue. The really early cars are all 3.4 litre. The very early cars also have a cable throttle so no fly by wire. This applies to 2wd only. Mine has no sunroof and even has no side airbags. I believe that is why these are the lightest and simplest 996 cars available.
Any questions fire away.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The other good news is the earlier cars are simple, light and more analogue. The really early cars are all 3.4 litre. The very early cars also have a cable throttle so no fly by wire. This applies to 2wd only. Mine has no sunroof and even has no side airbags. I believe that is why these are the lightest and simplest 996 cars available.
Any questions fire away.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
In terms of best long term buy i would say that an early 996 would be hard to beat and yes the simpler tge spec the better in many regards. In no particular order my ideal 996 would be:
1. Manual
2. Sunroof delete (they are heavy and often rattle and leak)
3. Reasonable service history, the more the better
4. Mileage not very relevant at this age of car subject to 3 above.
5 colour irrelevant unless hideous
6. Aero cars are popular
7 i would advise paying a bit extra for a really good car that has had lots of care lavished on it.
I cannot see 996 cars getting any cheaper whilst new 911s are £100k. Barring a watercooled engine they are nicely old fashioned, small and light by modern standards and are closer to the classic 911 than they are to the modern breed. Keep it for 5 years and sell for the same money as you paid for it. Maybe more!
Rick
1. Manual
2. Sunroof delete (they are heavy and often rattle and leak)
3. Reasonable service history, the more the better
4. Mileage not very relevant at this age of car subject to 3 above.
5 colour irrelevant unless hideous
6. Aero cars are popular
7 i would advise paying a bit extra for a really good car that has had lots of care lavished on it.
I cannot see 996 cars getting any cheaper whilst new 911s are £100k. Barring a watercooled engine they are nicely old fashioned, small and light by modern standards and are closer to the classic 911 than they are to the modern breed. Keep it for 5 years and sell for the same money as you paid for it. Maybe more!
Rick
Hi again everyone!
Thanks again for all the extra information, I can’t believe I have had to wait 2-3 days to thank you all, PH wouldn’t let me post due to having a current block on new members??
Anyway, I have taken all of your comments on board and my initial thoughts now have come down to choosing a 996 or 997. I have already set myself on a manual, without a sunroof as many have suggested. I would however consider the cabriolet?!?!
Based on the suggestions here, I started looking at the 996 C4S, but it seemed that it was probably out of my budget (15-20k). I have seen both of the below, opinions on whether the extra 5k is worth it for the C4S?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Or
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Thanks again all.
Thanks again for all the extra information, I can’t believe I have had to wait 2-3 days to thank you all, PH wouldn’t let me post due to having a current block on new members??
Anyway, I have taken all of your comments on board and my initial thoughts now have come down to choosing a 996 or 997. I have already set myself on a manual, without a sunroof as many have suggested. I would however consider the cabriolet?!?!
Based on the suggestions here, I started looking at the 996 C4S, but it seemed that it was probably out of my budget (15-20k). I have seen both of the below, opinions on whether the extra 5k is worth it for the C4S?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Or
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Thanks again all.
Edited by jdh87 on Sunday 7th October 13:07
Edited by jdh87 on Sunday 7th October 13:16
Jdh both those cars are well worth a look. £26k for a 997 c4s manual with 72k miles is a fair price and i suspect 24 or 25 might buy it.
Again the facelift 996 at £16000 sounfs very interesting especially as it has a new clutch and imsb. I would wantvto know exactly what bearing was fitted as some so called cures can be much flakier than the originals.
Both cars are private sales so sold as seen. As Mat says make sure you get a good ppi ahead of handing ovet any cash. But good luck and just remember these are epic cars and mainly really well built. A good one will reward in spades!
Rick
Again the facelift 996 at £16000 sounfs very interesting especially as it has a new clutch and imsb. I would wantvto know exactly what bearing was fitted as some so called cures can be much flakier than the originals.
Both cars are private sales so sold as seen. As Mat says make sure you get a good ppi ahead of handing ovet any cash. But good luck and just remember these are epic cars and mainly really well built. A good one will reward in spades!
Rick
Sorry Rick, I had to edit my post because I had copied the wrong link (didn’t intend to include the 997). What I was getting at was is it worth spending the extra £££’s on the C4S model over a Carrera 2.
I think I have my heart set on a 996, and want to hold out to look for the right one in that ‘seal grey’ colour if possible.
Thanks again.
I think I have my heart set on a 996, and want to hold out to look for the right one in that ‘seal grey’ colour if possible.
Thanks again.
The C4S has quite a following, principally because the wide bodyshell with the rear bumper vents looks so good. 4WD might be useful if you want to drive it all year round, although it will rob a bit of the steering feel and agility.
If you simply want 'a 911' then go for the best 2S example, ideally from a decent dealer, or at the very least with a good PPI.
Another, very useful place to look (not least because their name a shame rules about stealers are more helpful) and ask questions is the 911uk forum.
If you simply want 'a 911' then go for the best 2S example, ideally from a decent dealer, or at the very least with a good PPI.
Another, very useful place to look (not least because their name a shame rules about stealers are more helpful) and ask questions is the 911uk forum.
Digga, thanks for that. 4wd isn’t necessary, as I won’t be using it as a main car or even much in the winter. Our family car is 4wd so this will be kept warm in the garage most of the winter!!
Do I assume that the C4S is standard as 4wd?
Also, what’s the general thoughts about the convertible with an additional hard top? How does the hard top fix on and is it known for noise/rattling? Are these models still wanted?
Do I assume that the C4S is standard as 4wd?
Also, what’s the general thoughts about the convertible with an additional hard top? How does the hard top fix on and is it known for noise/rattling? Are these models still wanted?
As Digga days the wide bodied c4s has quite a following. The view of the back end is fairly epic. The 4 wheel system, common to all carrera 4 and 4s cars, gives it a very sure footed feel in all conditions. The c4s also gets turbo suspension, running gear and brakes, and like the turbo, sits 10mm lower than a standard carrera. Downsides? Well some might argue that as it is a bit wider than a standard car, but with the same engine, it might be a bit slower! Is it worth the premium? It does look great on the road. It is a matter of personal choice really. A c2 is just as good a car imo.
Rick
Rick
FYI, just purchased a 996 03 C4S coupe, tipronic, 1 owner 45k miles, always garaged and knew of the car from new.
Had a PPI from independent specialist who gave me an a4 sheet of paper for work required, due to age brake pipes heavily corroded so rear pipes need the engine out...while engine out check the IMS bearing - it was knackered so that was replaced with a LN IMS bearing. long list of other items totaling £8k (new tyres, new front brakes etc etc) but what a car, it is a 3rd car so used for fun and commuting only feels really tight, great drive and is my first Porsche so the later ones may be better quicker etc but it was the model I wanted. Investment? man maths sold it to the wife ha ha but I have it for the next few years to enjoy and use.
Good luck and make sure you get a PPI even if it is not from a dealer.
Had a PPI from independent specialist who gave me an a4 sheet of paper for work required, due to age brake pipes heavily corroded so rear pipes need the engine out...while engine out check the IMS bearing - it was knackered so that was replaced with a LN IMS bearing. long list of other items totaling £8k (new tyres, new front brakes etc etc) but what a car, it is a 3rd car so used for fun and commuting only feels really tight, great drive and is my first Porsche so the later ones may be better quicker etc but it was the model I wanted. Investment? man maths sold it to the wife ha ha but I have it for the next few years to enjoy and use.
Good luck and make sure you get a PPI even if it is not from a dealer.
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