People seem to be taking a bit of a bath on GT3 cars
Discussion
I wonder if Porsche have finally ruined the flip-appeal surrounding these cars by (IMO) giving them exclusively it seems as rewards for big spenders instead of being available to people who love them for what they are/do.
Do you think it'll be long before ordinary joes like me (long term GT car owner / driver) will be able to spec new cars instead of being expected to pay tens of thousands to reward the OPC's favourite customers...?
Do you think it'll be long before ordinary joes like me (long term GT car owner / driver) will be able to spec new cars instead of being expected to pay tens of thousands to reward the OPC's favourite customers...?
Jon666 said:
All the 991 GT cars have fallen significantly...yes, prices still over list but have still dropped significantly.
That is the point prices are still over list :-) so people who buy new HAVE NOT TAKEN A BATH !people who buy at overs have done the maths and decided it's still cheaper than buying a Macca, Lambo etc to own over 2 years.
Simple to grasp I would say, so I would say I am not blind.
And the thread is pointless.
Porsche911R said:
Jon666 said:
All the 991 GT cars have fallen significantly...yes, prices still over list but have still dropped significantly.
That is the point prices are still over list :-) so people who buy new HAVE NOT TAKEN A BATH !people who buy at overs have done the maths and decided it's still cheaper than buying a Macca, Lambo etc to own over 2 years.
Simple to grasp I would say, so I would say I am not blind.
And the thread is pointless.
supermono said:
I wonder if Porsche have finally ruined the flip-appeal surrounding these cars by (IMO) giving them exclusively it seems as rewards for big spenders instead of being available to people who love them for what they are/do.
Do you think it'll be long before ordinary joes like me (long term GT car owner / driver) will be able to spec new cars instead of being expected to pay tens of thousands to reward the OPC's favourite customers...?
People who bought at list will not understand the post above. They are in a different segment.Do you think it'll be long before ordinary joes like me (long term GT car owner / driver) will be able to spec new cars instead of being expected to pay tens of thousands to reward the OPC's favourite customers...?
However, there is a large growing backlash of previous GT drivers who have 'had enough', 'got bored', 'disappointed' with all the recent fun and games and made to feel like second class. Of course the people who did buy at list will interpret this as simply sour grapes or losers weeping. Some of it might be.
But I do feel sorry for the people who bought at high overs, transferring their wealth mainly to Porsche's favourite customers or DP's personal network or friends. These people do not feel better when they thought buying at overs or buying on Porsche finance would give them return favours in the long term - favours which don't really exist as the favourite customers are still there to pick up the next new model.
I think birds are coming back to roost on this one. It is surprising how much overs buyers have lost this year on 991.1RS, 991.2GT3, 991.2RS, and 991GT2RS. Or I should say how much of their wealth they have transferred to segment 1 above (where there are a lot of repeat customers / usual suspects)
As a long standing Porsche advocate, I must admit it rubs away at the brand engagement and loyalty.
Edited by LaSource on Wednesday 19th December 11:57
LindsayMac said:
^^^^^^
Well said, as a 3 time owner and user of GT cars I would agree. I always thought this was a bubble especially with the vanilla GT3, we may get back into this market soon, it will be nice to see more at the UK trackways than tucked up in garages.
Completely agree, and whilst I'm sure that some of the owners use the cars as intended, as and when the market returns to normal it will flush out the individuals who only own them for the kudos and the fact it's 'free motoring' rather than using them as the maker intended.Well said, as a 3 time owner and user of GT cars I would agree. I always thought this was a bubble especially with the vanilla GT3, we may get back into this market soon, it will be nice to see more at the UK trackways than tucked up in garages.
As someone who has owned GT cars from air cooled to current, the sooner the speculator market evaporates the better.
LaSource said:
People who bought at list will not understand the post above. They are in a different segment.
However, there is a large growing backlash of previous GT drivers who have 'had enough', 'got bored', 'disappointed' with all the recent fun and games and made to feel like second class. Of course the people who did buy at list will interpret this as simply sour grapes or losers weeping. Some of it might be.
But I do feel sorry for the people who bought at high overs, transferring their wealth mainly to Porsche's favourite customers or DP's personal network or friends. These people do not feel better when they thought buying at overs or buying on Porsche finance would give them return favours in the long term - favours which don't really exist as the favourite customers are still there to pick up the next new model.
I think birds are coming back to roost on this one. It is surprising how much overs buyers have lost this year on 991.1RS, 991.2GT3, 991.2RS, and 991GT2RS. Or I should say how much of their wealth they have transferred to segment 1 above (where there are a lot of repeat customers / usual suspects)
As a long standing Porsche advocate, I must admit it rubs away at the brand engagement and loyalty.
This. I am a long-time Porsche customer and advocate of the brand, still holding on to the slim hope that I might get a second batch 991.2 GT3 RS...However, there is a large growing backlash of previous GT drivers who have 'had enough', 'got bored', 'disappointed' with all the recent fun and games and made to feel like second class. Of course the people who did buy at list will interpret this as simply sour grapes or losers weeping. Some of it might be.
But I do feel sorry for the people who bought at high overs, transferring their wealth mainly to Porsche's favourite customers or DP's personal network or friends. These people do not feel better when they thought buying at overs or buying on Porsche finance would give them return favours in the long term - favours which don't really exist as the favourite customers are still there to pick up the next new model.
I think birds are coming back to roost on this one. It is surprising how much overs buyers have lost this year on 991.1RS, 991.2GT3, 991.2RS, and 991GT2RS. Or I should say how much of their wealth they have transferred to segment 1 above (where there are a lot of repeat customers / usual suspects)
As a long standing Porsche advocate, I must admit it rubs away at the brand engagement and loyalty.
Edited by LaSource on Wednesday 19th December 11:57
There are so many of the first batch (and the 991.1 cars) for sale that it really disappoints me. Many with sub 1000 miles (or even 500 miles). I did seriously contemplate buying a first batch car at overs, but 80k above list (in some instances even more) is just taking the proverbial...
It has made me look elsewhere seriously however, the Porsche lustre is diminishing for me and the 200k sports car market is full of excellent cars - just not so many that deliver 'free motoring' or indeed a profit if you choose to sit on your appreciating asset...
I don't begrudge anyone their car, but please use them!
TheDeadPrussian said:
LaSource said:
People who bought at list will not understand the post above. They are in a different segment.
However, there is a large growing backlash of previous GT drivers who have 'had enough', 'got bored', 'disappointed' with all the recent fun and games and made to feel like second class. Of course the people who did buy at list will interpret this as simply sour grapes or losers weeping. Some of it might be.
But I do feel sorry for the people who bought at high overs, transferring their wealth mainly to Porsche's favourite customers or DP's personal network or friends. These people do not feel better when they thought buying at overs or buying on Porsche finance would give them return favours in the long term - favours which don't really exist as the favourite customers are still there to pick up the next new model.
I think birds are coming back to roost on this one. It is surprising how much overs buyers have lost this year on 991.1RS, 991.2GT3, 991.2RS, and 991GT2RS. Or I should say how much of their wealth they have transferred to segment 1 above (where there are a lot of repeat customers / usual suspects)
As a long standing Porsche advocate, I must admit it rubs away at the brand engagement and loyalty.
This. I am a long-time Porsche customer and advocate of the brand, still holding on to the slim hope that I might get a second batch 991.2 GT3 RS...However, there is a large growing backlash of previous GT drivers who have 'had enough', 'got bored', 'disappointed' with all the recent fun and games and made to feel like second class. Of course the people who did buy at list will interpret this as simply sour grapes or losers weeping. Some of it might be.
But I do feel sorry for the people who bought at high overs, transferring their wealth mainly to Porsche's favourite customers or DP's personal network or friends. These people do not feel better when they thought buying at overs or buying on Porsche finance would give them return favours in the long term - favours which don't really exist as the favourite customers are still there to pick up the next new model.
I think birds are coming back to roost on this one. It is surprising how much overs buyers have lost this year on 991.1RS, 991.2GT3, 991.2RS, and 991GT2RS. Or I should say how much of their wealth they have transferred to segment 1 above (where there are a lot of repeat customers / usual suspects)
As a long standing Porsche advocate, I must admit it rubs away at the brand engagement and loyalty.
Edited by LaSource on Wednesday 19th December 11:57
There are so many of the first batch (and the 991.1 cars) for sale that it really disappoints me. Many with sub 1000 miles (or even 500 miles). I did seriously contemplate buying a first batch car at overs, but 80k above list (in some instances even more) is just taking the proverbial...
It has made me look elsewhere seriously however, the Porsche lustre is diminishing for me and the 200k sports car market is full of excellent cars - just not so many that deliver 'free motoring' or indeed a profit if you choose to sit on your appreciating asset...
I don't begrudge anyone their car, but please use them!
I had no issue at all securing a 991RS at list - a dozen dealers in the EU were willing - had the same with a touring and GT3.2 if I had wanted them.
Registering in the UK is not tricky with the OPC and if you are happy to site on the left it's a no brainer.
I've never paid over's and would rather not have the car or wait it just doesn't make sense for something intended for driving not rubbing one out over .
I would argue against 'free motoring'.
It isn't.
It's a diminishing tax free gain at best, because you can't 'motor' anywhere.
If you buy at car at list, through the correct and proper channels, then yes, you have an inherent profit element, which is currently being diminished daily.
You need to tax and insure it.
You may need to store it
You need to factor in OPC sales charge
You may have bought on punitive finance which will continue
Then the largest Dumbo in the room....if you drive it, then the miles will absolutely thump any overs that may be remaining. This is the rub.
As an extreme, Mr R owner may be sitting there looking to sell at £300k, so £150k profit. He could have taken £400k profit at the height, but he hasn't. He's mentally lost £250k in effect, and still hasn't driven it.
Stress, denial etc.
Still has a perceived £150k, but eroding and has to factor in points above.
Still can't drive it.
This doesn't sit well with Mr R. So what does he do ?, he sits on it, not driving it as he knows, putting 3000 miles on it would easily cost him £75k by the times he's out, and that's IF he finds a buyer still willing to pay £75k over....who still can't drive it.
It's gone, finished on new models. There is no longer a market for a 'Porsche share certificate' as they are not cars per se.... they are 'bonds'.
Free 'motoring' ?....no chance.
It isn't.
It's a diminishing tax free gain at best, because you can't 'motor' anywhere.
If you buy at car at list, through the correct and proper channels, then yes, you have an inherent profit element, which is currently being diminished daily.
You need to tax and insure it.
You may need to store it
You need to factor in OPC sales charge
You may have bought on punitive finance which will continue
Then the largest Dumbo in the room....if you drive it, then the miles will absolutely thump any overs that may be remaining. This is the rub.
As an extreme, Mr R owner may be sitting there looking to sell at £300k, so £150k profit. He could have taken £400k profit at the height, but he hasn't. He's mentally lost £250k in effect, and still hasn't driven it.
Stress, denial etc.
Still has a perceived £150k, but eroding and has to factor in points above.
Still can't drive it.
This doesn't sit well with Mr R. So what does he do ?, he sits on it, not driving it as he knows, putting 3000 miles on it would easily cost him £75k by the times he's out, and that's IF he finds a buyer still willing to pay £75k over....who still can't drive it.
It's gone, finished on new models. There is no longer a market for a 'Porsche share certificate' as they are not cars per se.... they are 'bonds'.
Free 'motoring' ?....no chance.
Edited by Robbo66 on Wednesday 19th December 14:01
anonymous said:
[redacted]
As I explained to my OPC recently - the guy who pays overs and then puts miles on the car knowing he will take a financial hit is your longterm Porsche buyer. The guy who buys every GT car he can get at list and sells at a profit with minimal miles is not your true Porsche buyer but a speculator who is in it solely to make money. The problem for Porsche right now is they have pi$$ed off so many of their longterm customers who may (like me) have tolerated buying a few cars at overs but who have now given 2 fingers to the brand. The speculators will instantly disappear when the overs end. And I guess longterm GT buyers like me will be welcomed back and given cars again. So I guess there is no real problem for Porsche and they will win whatever happens. Just to make the world right I'd like to see a few speculators get burnt along the way!993rsr . totally agree my old friend , nice to see normality returning ........yes I had my RS out in the rain this morning as it was bought to use .
The drivel from 911R is unrelenting and easier just to ignore , now there are two sides to GT ownership and sadly there are a few on here that just speak money , the investment aspect of the cars .
The constant bloody talk about good spec /poor spec and it will not sell if poor spec ........ thank god that will all now go away .
Who cares I could not afford to pay overs , despite constant chat of "put your money where your mouth is " , but was lucky to get a RS , and yes specced it poorly with Steel brakes , because I do not give a s
t about the next owner , I bought it for my fun .
Hopefully 2019 will be a fun year and real Porsche talk
The drivel from 911R is unrelenting and easier just to ignore , now there are two sides to GT ownership and sadly there are a few on here that just speak money , the investment aspect of the cars .
The constant bloody talk about good spec /poor spec and it will not sell if poor spec ........ thank god that will all now go away .
Who cares I could not afford to pay overs , despite constant chat of "put your money where your mouth is " , but was lucky to get a RS , and yes specced it poorly with Steel brakes , because I do not give a s
t about the next owner , I bought it for my fun .Hopefully 2019 will be a fun year and real Porsche talk
I paid ‘overs’ on a manual 991.2 a few weeks ago.
The messing around on allocations has left a bad taste, but on balance I wanted the car and was comfortable to pay a premium for a zero miles car in a spec I liked. I expect to lose a ton of cash on the car, but I’ve already moved on from worrying about this. A good few years of buying and running AMG mercs has cured me of worrying about depreciation. It is what it is.
The messing around on allocations has left a bad taste, but on balance I wanted the car and was comfortable to pay a premium for a zero miles car in a spec I liked. I expect to lose a ton of cash on the car, but I’ve already moved on from worrying about this. A good few years of buying and running AMG mercs has cured me of worrying about depreciation. It is what it is.
I get people’s frustrations if not able to participate in the Porsche circus and poor service / misleading information from dealers is unacceptable. At the end of the day though, we are all big boys and can make decisions based on our own objectives and financial position. I would suggest a large factor in Porsche GT ownership is the quality of the product and the generally sound economics (compared to the alternatives). If you are happy paying the market rate for an overs car and want to drive it, I applaud you. If you “invested” in a car and lost money, investments can go up as well as down.
I just don’t understand why there is so much complaining about prices, supply, spec etc. If you like a car at the price, buy it. If you want to polish it, it’s your car. If you want to rack up the miles and do a trackday every week, it’s your car. If Porsche treats its customers badly but still turns out good products, let people vote with their feet. Some of the alternatives aren’t that appealing IMO so many of us keep coming back.
It would be nice to hear more about how people enjoy their cars and what they do with them etc rather than more bickering. There are some right tools on PHs so at least that part is predictable! Let’s hope the overs market goes away and people who want them can buy them and use however they see fit.
I just don’t understand why there is so much complaining about prices, supply, spec etc. If you like a car at the price, buy it. If you want to polish it, it’s your car. If you want to rack up the miles and do a trackday every week, it’s your car. If Porsche treats its customers badly but still turns out good products, let people vote with their feet. Some of the alternatives aren’t that appealing IMO so many of us keep coming back.
It would be nice to hear more about how people enjoy their cars and what they do with them etc rather than more bickering. There are some right tools on PHs so at least that part is predictable! Let’s hope the overs market goes away and people who want them can buy them and use however they see fit.
993rsr said:
I got fed up with the rigmarole in the UK and went to Europe as I'm happy to sit on the 'wrong' side as a lot of my driving is - and hopefully will be post Brexit - in Europe to track days there, added bonus being the 90l tank.
I had no issue at all securing a 991RS at list - a dozen dealers in the EU were willing - had the same with a touring and GT3.2 if I had wanted them.
Registering in the UK is not tricky with the OPC and if you are happy to site on the left it's a no brainer.
I've never paid over's and would rather not have the car or wait it just doesn't make sense for something intended for driving not rubbing one out over .
I never knew you could just go and buy a GT car at list on the continent. I wonder if its the same case in NA.I had no issue at all securing a 991RS at list - a dozen dealers in the EU were willing - had the same with a touring and GT3.2 if I had wanted them.
Registering in the UK is not tricky with the OPC and if you are happy to site on the left it's a no brainer.
I've never paid over's and would rather not have the car or wait it just doesn't make sense for something intended for driving not rubbing one out over .
If so then why have Porsche allowed this unique situation to develop in the UK? I'd like to try a GT car for a few years and would drive it. Happy to pay RRP and accept normal 911 depreciation but won't pay overs or buy 5 cars I don't really want. Actually I can't afford to do the latter.
If this odd allocation system doesn't exist anywhere else in the world why has Porsche allowed it to flourish in the UK?
For some reason, Porsche prices it’s cars in the U.K. attractively compared to other markets so you end up paying more for a non U.K. LHD car than you would for a U.K. car at RRP (if you can get one). I think the supply vs demand balance is different so there isn’t the silly overs we have seen here.
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