997.1 GT3 - 911 Virgin
Discussion
These observations on long term ownership are of course true - but they miss one important aspect which may be slowing the market here.
If you commit to buying a 70k car which then drops to 50, and you find your personal situation has changed then you can't sell the car to pay off the loan.
Now of course you can say "don't buy the car then", and that's sensible advice, but bear in mind that with rising prices this bit of sensible advice simply wasn't needed as if you got made redundant etc you could flog the car and probably trouser a profit.
If you commit to buying a 70k car which then drops to 50, and you find your personal situation has changed then you can't sell the car to pay off the loan.
Now of course you can say "don't buy the car then", and that's sensible advice, but bear in mind that with rising prices this bit of sensible advice simply wasn't needed as if you got made redundant etc you could flog the car and probably trouser a profit.
With new 991/2 GT3's being the thick end of £150K well specced, I cant see a 997 GT3 ever being a £50K car. But as several people have said, you are a long time dead. I spent over a year finding my 997.1CS and the only thing that I regret about owning it is not having the time to drive it and appreciate it as often as I would like.
Digga said:
97 and 991 are very, very different platforms. IMHO, both have their merits and in a perfect world "both" is definitely the right answer. 
My view, when I was buying, was that I desperately wanted a 'keeper' and so the actual purchase price was flexible and I was looking all through the (non RS) options from 997.1, through 997.2, to 991.1 (the .2 was not out at that time and was, in any case, above budget). In the end, for me, I liked the Idea of the 7 platform, as it had so much potential for tuning to personal preference and there was a plethora of knowledge and many, many road and race hours logged worldwide to develop good modifications.
The residuals of 991.2's will be dictated by how good, or not, the 992 GT3 is. This is by no means certain - ask anyone who traded a 458 in readiness to buy the (less fun) 488.
I'm also after a keeper. My view, when I was buying, was that I desperately wanted a 'keeper' and so the actual purchase price was flexible and I was looking all through the (non RS) options from 997.1, through 997.2, to 991.1 (the .2 was not out at that time and was, in any case, above budget). In the end, for me, I liked the Idea of the 7 platform, as it had so much potential for tuning to personal preference and there was a plethora of knowledge and many, many road and race hours logged worldwide to develop good modifications.
The residuals of 991.2's will be dictated by how good, or not, the 992 GT3 is. This is by no means certain - ask anyone who traded a 458 in readiness to buy the (less fun) 488.
The big attraction of the 997.1 and 997.2 (for me) is the tried and tested engine and relative simplicity of the car. I chose between a 997.1 GT3 and 997.1 turbo back in 2009 and ended up going with the turbo. I didn't regret my decision and enjoyed the turbo for 7 years, but did start to feel the GT3 itch after about 4 years of ownership (especially when I took my turbo to the Nurburgring).
For me, buying the 997 GT3 would be stepping back in time and basically turning my 997 turbo into the perfect (NA) weapon!
However, I'd struggle to justify spending upwards of £100k or so for the pristine example that I'd want as a keeper.
And my head has really been turned by the 991 platform. The 991.1 is not for me because of the engine issues.
The 991.2 is the perfect car for me, offering something fresh and exciting, but just feels overpriced at the moment.
Skrambles said:
The big attraction of the 997.1 and 997.2 (for me) is the tried and tested engine and relative simplicity of the car. I chose between a 997.1 GT3 and 997.1 turbo back in 2009 and ended up going with the turbo. I didn't regret my decision and enjoyed the turbo for 7 years, but did start to feel the GT3 itch after about 4 years of ownership (especially when I took my turbo to the Nurburgring).
Snap. All of that. Except I had a 996 turbo. I know another PHer (who also used to run TVRs, as I did, back in the day) who's done the same. Tried and tested route.Matter88 said:
I think unless your over stretching yourself in order to buy the car in the first place, the fluctuations in it's value during ownership ought to be of little concern providing it's been bought for the "right" reason. I bought my car (997.1 CS) as I've wanted one for years and could finally comfortably afford to do so, and am conscious likely bought at the peak of the current pricing level. I love it & drive it as much as I possibly can.
I don't intend to sell it, and therefore I don't need to worry if it's not worth the money I paid for it, as I could afford it. I drive it, enjoy it, look after it, and feel lucky to have it.
If you want one, can comfortably get one, just bloody do it and get the best one you can. It's the most exciting, rewarding and challenging car I've ever owned.
We're all a long time in a box at the end of the day.
I don't intend to sell it, and therefore I don't need to worry if it's not worth the money I paid for it, as I could afford it. I drive it, enjoy it, look after it, and feel lucky to have it.
If you want one, can comfortably get one, just bloody do it and get the best one you can. It's the most exciting, rewarding and challenging car I've ever owned.
We're all a long time in a box at the end of the day.
I went the other way and did buy the low price 997.1 GT3 CS (at 160k miles). Over time I expect to spend money on it (so far spent a couple of k on putting the suspension back to standard). Over the winter the diff will get a refresh and it'll probably get a new clutch. Of course spending money on it will not make it a low mileage car, well unless I spend money on getting the mileage adjusted But it was a way to get a GT3 CS within the budget at the time. And really well maintained.
It's a great way of doing it (for me) and I love the car, everything I wanted. And I don't care about putting miles on it. When the motor finally needs a freshen up, it'll probably end up with some extra oomph.
Bert
But it was a way to get a GT3 CS within the budget at the time. And really well maintained.It's a great way of doing it (for me) and I love the car, everything I wanted. And I don't care about putting miles on it. When the motor finally needs a freshen up, it'll probably end up with some extra oomph.
Bert
BertBert said:
I went the other way and did buy the low price 997.1 GT3 CS (at 160k miles). Over time I expect to spend money on it (so far spent a couple of k on putting the suspension back to standard). Over the winter the diff will get a refresh and it'll probably get a new clutch. Of course spending money on it will not make it a low mileage car, well unless I spend money on getting the mileage adjusted But it was a way to get a GT3 CS within the budget at the time. And really well maintained.
It's a great way of doing it (for me) and I love the car, everything I wanted. And I don't care about putting miles on it. When the motor finally needs a freshen up, it'll probably end up with some extra oomph.
Bert
Hi Bert, But it was a way to get a GT3 CS within the budget at the time. And really well maintained.It's a great way of doing it (for me) and I love the car, everything I wanted. And I don't care about putting miles on it. When the motor finally needs a freshen up, it'll probably end up with some extra oomph.
Bert
If your car was down @ Fearnsport recently, I've seen it. Looked a lovely car - enjoy it!
Steve Rance said:
With new 991/2 GT3's being the thick end of £150K well specced, I cant see a 997 GT3 ever being a £50K car. But as several people have said, you are a long time dead. I spent over a year finding my 997.1CS and the only thing that I regret about owning it is not having the time to drive it and appreciate it as often as I would like.
I love the 997.1 GT3 CS - I think it's a great car and nigh on perfect in terms fo spec. 3.6l NA Mezger, narrow body, plenty fast enough and such a delicious tactility to it. Most surpsiingly for me is that it's actually comfortable on the road - even more so than my Cayman R was (because of the adaptive dampers). The icing on the cake is that it's unlikely to lose much money if I keep it in good nick.BertBert said:
I love the fact that it's comfy - the buckets really suit me. The PO didn't like them and was using some tombstone seats I think. The buckets were really uncomfortable when I got the car, but a few minutes getting the bolster cushions in the right place soon sorted that.
Bert
Totally agree - have you got any pics of your one?Bert
PGNSagaris said:
RicM5 said:
Wow. That’s fabulous. Congrats Ric
Genuinely should be considered especially if you’ve already sided in the 997 over 991 camp
I won’t go on but the highlights are this car is fitted with KW3 dcc suspension at the KW factory in Germany . Drives like no other 911 I’ve driven (including 997/991 GT3 nd GTS)
Lightened flywheel and clutch...... pick up is unbelievable!!!! A host of other mods and can be actually used daily!!!
I can already hear the diehard porsche affectionados blaspheming ...... try one
Does anyone know how many RHD 997.2 GT3 CSs ended up being sold in the U.K.? I’ve been keeping an eye on the market for a while and will shortly he selling my 997.1 Turbo and S1 Exige to make the jump into a GT3. Preference is to go 3.8 and love the seats in the CS but, with the exception of the white car at Guildford over Christmas, I haven’t seen a RHD car priced sensibly.
Frankly, I agree with the narrative above. These are wonderful cars to drive and life is short. Even if the market tanks, you are unlikely to lose your shirt on a 996/997 like you would on a new Lamborghini or McLaren. I think the key to getting value from your car is to use it to make some great memories. I have taken my Turbo to Italy, IOM and regular trips to the Dales and Snowdonia. Even if I’d lost a few quid in depreciation, tackling the IOM Mountain Course on a quiet morning in a 911 Turbo is a memory I’d always cherish. That’s the purpose of these things, surely?
Frankly, I agree with the narrative above. These are wonderful cars to drive and life is short. Even if the market tanks, you are unlikely to lose your shirt on a 996/997 like you would on a new Lamborghini or McLaren. I think the key to getting value from your car is to use it to make some great memories. I have taken my Turbo to Italy, IOM and regular trips to the Dales and Snowdonia. Even if I’d lost a few quid in depreciation, tackling the IOM Mountain Course on a quiet morning in a 911 Turbo is a memory I’d always cherish. That’s the purpose of these things, surely?
100% agree on the making memories sentiment, 100%.
But to say you can’t lose your shirt if the market tanks is folly.
Losing £20k+ on a weekend toy (whilst running more than likely two other depreciation asset cars as dailys) is a very real possibility, especially for anyone who remembers buying or selling high performance cars in 2009-2011.
If you need cash liquidity in a hurry and the toy has to go (remember when the banks started calling in the business loans back then?) then any distressed sale is going to see you bid in the balls.
No I’m not really that bitter about punting an M3csl to trade
with only 33k (very hard!) miles on it when I couldn’t give it away for under £25k.
Some fantastic memories in it no doubt (draining a tank of fuel in under 40 mins on a French motorway) but when it had to go it certainly cost.
But to say you can’t lose your shirt if the market tanks is folly.
Losing £20k+ on a weekend toy (whilst running more than likely two other depreciation asset cars as dailys) is a very real possibility, especially for anyone who remembers buying or selling high performance cars in 2009-2011.
If you need cash liquidity in a hurry and the toy has to go (remember when the banks started calling in the business loans back then?) then any distressed sale is going to see you bid in the balls.
No I’m not really that bitter about punting an M3csl to trade
with only 33k (very hard!) miles on it when I couldn’t give it away for under £25k.Some fantastic memories in it no doubt (draining a tank of fuel in under 40 mins on a French motorway) but when it had to go it certainly cost.
I totally get what you’re saying but historically the majority of high performance cars will depreciate rather than appreciate. The expectation of cars being assets is relatively recent. I would never expect a car to make me money but might hope that it wouldn’t - if that makes sense?
I think everyone has a story of ‘the one that got away’ but selling a CSL at the bottom of the market must still burn!
I think everyone has a story of ‘the one that got away’ but selling a CSL at the bottom of the market must still burn!
RicM5 said:
PGNSagaris said:
RicM5 said:
Wow. That’s fabulous. Congrats RicGenuinely should be considered especially if you’ve already sided in the 997 over 991 camp
I won’t go on but the highlights are this car is fitted with KW3 dcc suspension at the KW factory in Germany . Drives like no other 911 I’ve driven (including 997/991 GT3 nd GTS)
Lightened flywheel and clutch...... pick up is unbelievable!!!! A host of other mods and can be actually used daily!!!
I can already hear the diehard porsche affectionados blaspheming ...... try one
I’m not sure how well you have been following the 997.2 gt3 cs market but very few cars are selling. ATM.
Best car I have seen advertised was the PTS, very low mileage car which apparently was immaculate top and bottom. I made two offers to engage a deal before viewing but from my understanding and talks it had been under written by someone in the trade at a higher price than I offered. I assume it went to that trade person as it’s not on piston heads now. Looked a far better car than the ones currently for sale.
IMO the 997.2 cs is a beautiful car but seem to take time to sell at there current levels, great car if you fancy it as a long term keeper.
A nice red CS with around 20k on the clock has been advertised privately a few times, last time it was £105k. But this car apparently doesn’t have full Porsche history, from my understanding from speaking with the owner it’s be very well looked after in the independent network and is immaculate original car with very few owners. Might be worth keeping an eye out for that if it pops back up for sale, I think it may of been in Southern Scotland and the owner has owned it for a number of years. Looked lovely in his pictures.
Best car I have seen advertised was the PTS, very low mileage car which apparently was immaculate top and bottom. I made two offers to engage a deal before viewing but from my understanding and talks it had been under written by someone in the trade at a higher price than I offered. I assume it went to that trade person as it’s not on piston heads now. Looked a far better car than the ones currently for sale.
IMO the 997.2 cs is a beautiful car but seem to take time to sell at there current levels, great car if you fancy it as a long term keeper.
A nice red CS with around 20k on the clock has been advertised privately a few times, last time it was £105k. But this car apparently doesn’t have full Porsche history, from my understanding from speaking with the owner it’s be very well looked after in the independent network and is immaculate original car with very few owners. Might be worth keeping an eye out for that if it pops back up for sale, I think it may of been in Southern Scotland and the owner has owned it for a number of years. Looked lovely in his pictures.
As I said. Plenty of stuff is moving inc 997 GT bits. JZM have shifted a few inc GT3 and RS variants. The Riviera car sold but not to trade - it made good money and was snapped up by a wise buyer, more concerned with bagging a special thing than saving a few K or indeed waiting for something that may never happen
All good fun........
All good fun........
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