997/996 GT3 dynamics
Discussion
That pic of the gt3 cup looks wicked,something about the first design shape always looking the best,before they changed to the butt ugly fryed egg lights.The boxter was the same,the original looked so pure and simple.
Cup engine only cost that if you have to throw away most of the parts on a rebuild or need to follow porsche strict guide lines,but thats for actual race engines raceing not track day exploits.
A gt3 road engine can cost similar if you have to replace lots of parts,i just had to pay 1000e per conrod,the crank had a crack in it invisible to the naked eye and so on,just stay off the last 1000 rpm on track days,a cup engine will then last as long as road gt3 engine or longer.
Cup engine only cost that if you have to throw away most of the parts on a rebuild or need to follow porsche strict guide lines,but thats for actual race engines raceing not track day exploits.
A gt3 road engine can cost similar if you have to replace lots of parts,i just had to pay 1000e per conrod,the crank had a crack in it invisible to the naked eye and so on,just stay off the last 1000 rpm on track days,a cup engine will then last as long as road gt3 engine or longer.
MDL111 said:
no clue on hours. was told
c 25-30k for a comprehensive engine rebuild and
c. 2-3k for work hours on the transmission, including parts anything from 3k to 15k depending on what needs to be replaced
the above car mentions €52k spent, but I don't have the invoice breakdown yet - will give details once/if they send it to me
For cars MY 2004 manual says: change of crown wheel & pinion after 8 tkm is recommended, check of all bearings after 5 tkm, recommended change of pinion bearing after 5 tkm, recomended change of gear linkages and gearchange- mechanism after 10 tkm (the lever-box is meant). LSD fricition plates change according to wear. Dismantle & check Suspension after 30 hrs, replace drive shafts and Wheel bearings and fuel filterc 25-30k for a comprehensive engine rebuild and
c. 2-3k for work hours on the transmission, including parts anything from 3k to 15k depending on what needs to be replaced
the above car mentions €52k spent, but I don't have the invoice breakdown yet - will give details once/if they send it to me
For the MY 2002 cars it says complete overhaul of the gearbox after 30hrs other than that more or less the same. I would imagine that most 2002 cars will by now have 2004 gearbox internals though...
Neither manual states anything about engine life and from my experience they go on for a very long time if treated right.
Been doing trackdays in 996 and 997 Cups for a while now and am now in a 2016 991 Cup. 996 was always hassle free, very close to the road car really. Parts have become expensive though, PAG has upped the Prices considerably over the past years.
Different world and there's no turning back even if I really enjoy the GT3 road cars as well. Can only recommend the leap to anyone who is serious About his driving. Incidentially I know both the previous owner as well as the garage who sells the early 996 on mobile.de (am Munich based).
Happy to help anyone if I can.
Edited by noneedtolift on Thursday 31st January 14:47
isaldiri said:
IIRC, I was told the Cup engine ECU maps to running at track speeds and doesn't like being used at road rpms at all, especially say being stuck in traffic. Have to admit I personally wouldn't try to convert a Cup to road use but rather get a 996 gt3 and strip it out to try to match the Cup if I were going to try to go down that route.
The 997 Cup ECU is a Bosch Motorsport part, and whilst the mapping isn’t ideal for road use, the real issue is the lack of Variocam in the Cup engines. Add high lift, long duration cams into the mix (and in the 997 a small, almost non-existent flywheel, a straight cut sequential box with the backlash that straight cut gears can entail, along with a 5 1/2” multi-plate sintered clutch, and you have a recipe for a rather unfriendly road car ... or at least one to avoid using in heavy traffic. However if traffic free, high speed, early morning, cross country thrashes are your thing, a 997 Cup would be suitably visceral weapon of choice ... :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gWG6ZJ1vT8c
A Cup engine driven on the road and tracked occasionally (avoiding the last 1k rpm of the Rev range, should last many hours without needing a rebuild.
Lots of precautionary oil changes and regular leakdown tests, and you’ll see several hundred hours use out of one.
Use them as they were built to be used, ie all the revs, all the time, and flat shift (the 996) and the bills will be big, regular and come thick and fast ...
noneedtolift said:
MDL111 said:
no clue on hours. was told
c 25-30k for a comprehensive engine rebuild and
c. 2-3k for work hours on the transmission, including parts anything from 3k to 15k depending on what needs to be replaced
the above car mentions €52k spent, but I don't have the invoice breakdown yet - will give details once/if they send it to me
For cars MY 2004 manual says: change of crown wheel & pinion after 8 tkm is recommended, check of all bearings after 5 tkm, recommended change of pinion bearing after 5 tkm, recomended change of gear linkages and gearchange- mechanism after 10 tkm (the lever-box is meant). LSD fricition plates change according to wear. Dismantle & check Suspension after 30 hrs, replace drive shafts and Wheel bearings and fuel filterc 25-30k for a comprehensive engine rebuild and
c. 2-3k for work hours on the transmission, including parts anything from 3k to 15k depending on what needs to be replaced
the above car mentions €52k spent, but I don't have the invoice breakdown yet - will give details once/if they send it to me
For the MY 2002 cars it says complete overhaul of the gearbox after 30hrs other than that more or less the same. I would imagine that most 2002 cars will by now have 2004 gearbox internals though...
Neither manual states anything about engine life and from my experience they go on for a very long time if treated right.
Been doing trackdays in 996 and 997 Cups for a while now and am now in a 2016 991 Cup. 996 was always hassle free, very close to the road car really. Parts have become expensive though, PAG has upped the Prices considerably over the past years.
Different world and there's no turning back even if I really enjoy the GT3 road cars as well. Can only recommend the leap to anyone who is serious About his driving. Incidentially I know both the previous owner as well as the garage who sells the early 996 on mobile.de (am Munich based).
Happy to help anyone if I can.
Edited by noneedtolift on Thursday 31st January 14:47
Am also Munich based (although the car would mostly reside close to Salzburg, so I can easily get to the Salzburgring and Red Bull ring) and don't have to navigate city traffic.
I spoke to a-workx earlier this week and they will check the car(s) for me prior to making a purchase decision.
I like the early 996 as I think it looks better than the 996.2, I assume if it has been rebuilt correctly and is straight, the accident should not be of too much concern? The garage selling it also did the rebuild of the car.
Slippydiff said:
isaldiri said:
IIRC, I was told the Cup engine ECU maps to running at track speeds and doesn't like being used at road rpms at all, especially say being stuck in traffic. Have to admit I personally wouldn't try to convert a Cup to road use but rather get a 996 gt3 and strip it out to try to match the Cup if I were going to try to go down that route.
The 997 Cup ECU is a Bosch Motorsport part, and whilst the mapping isn’t ideal for road use, the real issue is the lack of Variocam in the Cup engines. Add high lift, long duration cams into the mix (and in the 997 a small, almost non-existent flywheel, a straight cut sequential box with the backlash that straight cut gears can entail, along with a 5 1/2” multi-plate sintered clutch, and you have a recipe for a rather unfriendly road car ... or at least one to avoid using in heavy traffic. However if traffic free, high speed, early morning, cross country thrashes are your thing, a 997 Cup would be suitably visceral weapon of choice ... :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gWG6ZJ1vT8c
A Cup engine driven on the road and tracked occasionally (avoiding the last 1k rpm of the Rev range, should last many hours without needing a rebuild.
Lots of precautionary oil changes and regular leakdown tests, and you’ll see several hundred hours use out of one.
Use them as they were built to be used, ie all the revs, all the time, and flat shift (the 996) and the bills will be big, regular and come thick and fast ...
MDL111,
Not sure if you’ve read this thread; a PHer’s journey from buying to racing a Cup. Great thread which may or may not be useful to you RE running one on the road.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Not sure if you’ve read this thread; a PHer’s journey from buying to racing a Cup. Great thread which may or may not be useful to you RE running one on the road.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
BrotherMouzone said:
MDL111,
Not sure if you’ve read this thread; a PHer’s journey from buying to racing a Cup. Great thread which may or may not be useful to you RE running one on the road.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Thank you - read that a while back but a good reminder to revisit it Not sure if you’ve read this thread; a PHer’s journey from buying to racing a Cup. Great thread which may or may not be useful to you RE running one on the road.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Slippydiff said:
The 997 Cup ECU is a Bosch Motorsport part, and whilst the mapping isn’t ideal for road use, the real issue is the lack of Variocam in the Cup engines. Add high lift, long duration cams into the mix (and in the 997 a small, almost non-existent flywheel, a straight cut sequential box with the backlash that straight cut gears can entail, along with a 5 1/2” multi-plate sintered clutch, and you have a recipe for a rather unfriendly road car ... or at least one to avoid using in heavy traffic.
However if traffic free, high speed, early morning, cross country thrashes are your thing, a 997 Cup would be suitably visceral weapon of choice ... :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gWG6ZJ1vT8c
However if traffic free, high speed, early morning, cross country thrashes are your thing, a 997 Cup would be suitably visceral weapon of choice ... :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gWG6ZJ1vT8c
Ace! Love it.Sounds w
ky as a bag of knackers. Proper, undiluted Mezger racket. 
Digga said:
Ace! Love it.Sounds w
ky as a bag of knackers. Proper, undiluted Mezger racket. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nzmag2hdiU8&t=32...
Some softer suspension and a decent set of earplugs should sort things
And to make things easier still, one of these :
http://www.autometricsmotorsports.com/tech/2013/04...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4zZk3lhw1Lc
Mezger racket ? Here you go :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QFILtA8Icnk
Edited by Slippydiff on Friday 1st February 09:13
r4_rick said:
Someone was saying they wanted a road legal track car, Paragon posted up on FB that they are selling their quite well known, Blue/Peppermint 996, someone posted that it was road legal....
yes, their early 996 C2 race car which has strong competition history, is road legal and is currently for sale as Mark isn't planning on defending his title this season. r4_rick said:
Someone was saying they wanted a road legal track car, Paragon posted up on FB that they are selling their quite well known, Blue/Peppermint 996, someone posted that it was road legal....
IIRC it's not a GT3 but Mark Sumpter's race car, so a pretty well sorted 911 nonetheless.MDL111 said:
noneedtolift said:
MDL111 said:
no clue on hours. was told
c 25-30k for a comprehensive engine rebuild and
c. 2-3k for work hours on the transmission, including parts anything from 3k to 15k depending on what needs to be replaced
the above car mentions €52k spent, but I don't have the invoice breakdown yet - will give details once/if they send it to me
For cars MY 2004 manual says: change of crown wheel & pinion after 8 tkm is recommended, check of all bearings after 5 tkm, recommended change of pinion bearing after 5 tkm, recomended change of gear linkages and gearchange- mechanism after 10 tkm (the lever-box is meant). LSD fricition plates change according to wear. Dismantle & check Suspension after 30 hrs, replace drive shafts and Wheel bearings and fuel filterc 25-30k for a comprehensive engine rebuild and
c. 2-3k for work hours on the transmission, including parts anything from 3k to 15k depending on what needs to be replaced
the above car mentions €52k spent, but I don't have the invoice breakdown yet - will give details once/if they send it to me
For the MY 2002 cars it says complete overhaul of the gearbox after 30hrs other than that more or less the same. I would imagine that most 2002 cars will by now have 2004 gearbox internals though...
Neither manual states anything about engine life and from my experience they go on for a very long time if treated right.
Been doing trackdays in 996 and 997 Cups for a while now and am now in a 2016 991 Cup. 996 was always hassle free, very close to the road car really. Parts have become expensive though, PAG has upped the Prices considerably over the past years.
Different world and there's no turning back even if I really enjoy the GT3 road cars as well. Can only recommend the leap to anyone who is serious About his driving. Incidentially I know both the previous owner as well as the garage who sells the early 996 on mobile.de (am Munich based).
Happy to help anyone if I can.
Edited by noneedtolift on Thursday 31st January 14:47
Am also Munich based (although the car would mostly reside close to Salzburg, so I can easily get to the Salzburgring and Red Bull ring) and don't have to navigate city traffic.
I spoke to a-workx earlier this week and they will check the car(s) for me prior to making a purchase decision.
I like the early 996 as I think it looks better than the 996.2, I assume if it has been rebuilt correctly and is straight, the accident should not be of too much concern? The garage selling it also did the rebuild of the car.
If you don't already you should know that Nico from A-Workx and David from Cartech know each other quite well but are in competition so you should be ok with A-Workx checking on it
Good rebuild on that car I personally think!
Took my 996.1 GT3 to Brands last month. Just a phenomenal car - every part of the car just feels so perfectly balanced and it felt as though it could just pound around all day.
The feeling when you nailed Paddock Hill bend and it grazed the tarmac at the bottom with the Mezger engine heading towards the red line and then H&T into druids was pure motoring nirvana!
The feeling when you nailed Paddock Hill bend and it grazed the tarmac at the bottom with the Mezger engine heading towards the red line and then H&T into druids was pure motoring nirvana!
JMo22 said:
Took my 996.1 GT3 to Brands last month. Just a phenomenal car - every part of the car just feels so perfectly balanced and it felt as though it could just pound around all day.
The feeling when you nailed Paddock Hill bend and it grazed the tarmac at the bottom with the Mezger engine heading towards the red line and then H&T into druids was pure motoring nirvana!
Dreamy that!The feeling when you nailed Paddock Hill bend and it grazed the tarmac at the bottom with the Mezger engine heading towards the red line and then H&T into druids was pure motoring nirvana!
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