997/996 GT3 dynamics
Discussion
blackmamba said:
What a great thread. Brings back a lot of memories of my 996.2 GT3 that I bought from an OPC in the middle of winter. Great fun even in the snow. I always found it struggled on bumpier B roads but I took it to the Alps and it devoured the miles. 600+ miles in a day on the motorway with some music on and then spectacular on the twisty bits. 3500 mile round trip in comfort with no issues. The engine was the star, really something special. The car was so interactive and full of feel.
I’ve been lucky enough to have had most generations of fast 911 (2.7RS to 991.2 GT3) and while I really love the old stuff, the 996 GT3 is right up there and by far the best / cheapest way to get a top class driving experience at the moment. I’m very tempted to get another - the current Porsche performance bargain if ever there was one!
I’ve been lucky enough to have had most generations of fast 911 (2.7RS to 991.2 GT3) and while I really love the old stuff, the 996 GT3 is right up there and by far the best / cheapest way to get a top class driving experience at the moment. I’m very tempted to get another - the current Porsche performance bargain if ever there was one!
Obviously I am biased but I genuinely believe a red or yellow 996.2 GT3 still look fantastic and are the bargain of all Porsches at the moment especially compared to the other GT3 models. Now is the time to buy a good one at a decent price I am pretty sure they will end up being a lot dearer sooner than later! Unfortunately my turbo being tiptronic especially will take a fair few years yet to appreciate the GT3 is the drivers bargain the 996 Turbo the performance bargain of Porsches.
Kevin-sz0nv said:
Obviously I am biased but I genuinely believe a red or yellow 996.2 GT3 still look fantastic and are the bargain of all Porsches at the moment especially compared to the other GT3 models. Now is the time to buy a good one at a decent price I am pretty sure they will end up being a lot dearer sooner than later! Unfortunately my turbo being tiptronic especially will take a fair few years yet to appreciate the GT3 is the drivers bargain the 996 Turbo the performance bargain of Porsches.
They have already appreciated. There was once a time when finding one at a price that started with a 3 was easy & if you were careful you could get one starting with a 2.TDT said:
Dan911 said:
This Topic made me pop to the garage, just have a coffee while looking at her
I thought I was the only one that did this. LolI don't get to drive it every day, but I'm in there several times a week taking one of the mountain bikes out for a thrash, as well as fettling them. Never pass the car without admiring it.
Funnily enough, the mountain biking is something I'd done in my early 20's that got dropped before I used to do track days, sprints and hillclimbs and was only picked up when I sold the last track car. I think it's helped hugely - you have to be much faster with the reactions on two wheels, especially on steep, muddy rooty trails.
The discussions about how these cars feel is fascinating; everyone is talking a very similar language, of the weight transfer and the transitions from understeer to oversteer, the influence of brakes and throttle. Although I've only just got the car set up to (roughly) how I want it, I've already got a taste of how a GT3 brings these dynamics to life. Not to mention the engine! Looking forward to 2019!
Great thread Braddo.
If I might add something, one driving aspect of the 911 I certainly hadn't realised until i had my car on track was just how much more one can lean on the brakes especially with a bit of steering lock. Having come from a background of mainly driving mid engine cars on track, the rear engined cars do handle differently and are all the better for it to me. while a lot of people seem to bemoan the fact that the cars 'have the engine in the wrong place' and want Porsche to go mid engine just to 'keep up with the competition', personally I very much disagree with that. The different engine layout offers a different and unique driving experience and it'd be a shame when everything in time converges to being yet another high powered mid engine laptime monster.
isaldiri said:
If I might add something, one driving aspect of the 911 I certainly hadn't realised until i had my car on track was just how much more one can lean on the brakes especially with a bit of steering lock. Having come from a background of mainly driving mid engine cars on track, the rear engined cars do handle differently and are all the better for it to me. while a lot of people seem to bemoan the fact that the cars 'have the engine in the wrong place' and want Porsche to go mid engine just to 'keep up with the competition', personally I very much disagree with that. The different engine layout offers a different and unique driving experience and it'd be a shame when everything in time converges to being yet another high powered mid engine laptime monster.
I agree. It is, frankly, staggering how much braking can be carried into the apex.In my old track car (a modified TVR Griffith 500), you really had to do the classic brake before entry. There were times when the front was vague on entry, where a very, very mild trail-brake would sort things out, but you had to be careful. It was always in this section of the corner your heart was in your mouth.
If you could get it to the apex, you could normally sort it out, but it was not easy, precise or pretty. A bit of a knife-and-fork job.The attitude of the 911 on the other hand is much more dependable and absolutely perfectly suited to heel-and-toe.
Digga said:
I agree. It is, frankly, staggering how much braking can be carried into the apex.
In my old track car (a modified TVR Griffith 500), you really had to do the classic brake before entry. There were times when the front was vague on entry, where a very, very mild trail-brake would sort things out, but you had to be careful. It was always in this section of the corner your heart was in your mouth. If you could get it to the apex, you could normally sort it out, but it was not easy, precise or pretty. A bit of a knife-and-fork job.
The attitude of the 911 on the other hand is much more dependable and absolutely perfectly suited to heel-and-toe.
I don’t profess to be a master at h & t, but I was watching a YT video a couple of weeks ago of a manual aircooled car being driven without h & t. It was totally cringeworthy hearing the engine revs soar sharply as the clutch was released on the poorly timed downshifts without any attempt at matching engine speed to roadspeed ... It unbalances car in most horrible and unpredictable manner.In my old track car (a modified TVR Griffith 500), you really had to do the classic brake before entry. There were times when the front was vague on entry, where a very, very mild trail-brake would sort things out, but you had to be careful. It was always in this section of the corner your heart was in your mouth.
If you could get it to the apex, you could normally sort it out, but it was not easy, precise or pretty. A bit of a knife-and-fork job.The attitude of the 911 on the other hand is much more dependable and absolutely perfectly suited to heel-and-toe.
Slippydiff said:
I don’t profess to be a master at h & t, but I was watching a YT video a couple of weeks ago of a manual aircooled car being driven without h & t. It was totally cringeworthy hearing the engine revs soar sharply as the clutch was released on the poorly timed downshifts without any attempt at matching engine speed to roadspeed ... It unbalances car in most horrible and unpredictable manner.
I had no choice but to learn H&T with the TVR; a light car, with a large-displacement, high-compression engine. Most people crashing TVRs did so by ignoring or underestimating the prodigious engine braking. Insureres reckon 70% of crashes were 'single vehicle' accidents. Team Central TVR actually lost a customer (as in dead in a ditch) on his first drive home like this.On track, what made things even worse on the standard Griffith was the front and rear brake bias was wrong. Long story short, I put on larger front calipers (a lot of track and competition drives did this by default) and a bias adjuster and that solved it.
Edited by Digga on Monday 28th January 12:09
Digga said:
Slippydiff said:
I don’t profess to be a master at h & t, but I was watching a YT video a couple of weeks ago of a manual aircooled car being driven without h & t. It was totally cringeworthy hearing the engine revs soar sharply as the clutch was released on the poorly timed downshifts without any attempt at matching engine speed to roadspeed ... It unbalances car in most horrible and unpredictable manner.
I had no choice but to learn H&T with the TVR; a light car, with a large-displacement, high-compression engine. Most people crashing TVRs did so by ignoring or underestimating the prodigal engine braking. INsureres reckon 70% of crashes were 'single vehicle' accidents. Team Central TVR actually lost a customer (as in dead in a ditch) on his first drive home like this.On track, what made things even worse on the standard Griffith was the front and rear brake bias was wrong. Long story short, I put on larger front calipers (a lot of track and competition drives did this by default) and a bias adjuster and that solved it.
I learnt to heel and toe in a 16 Valve Jetta GTi. "Why Slippy" ? I hear you asking ....
Because the wire to the idle stabilisation valve had broken (inside the insulation where you couldn't see it) and the only way to stop it cutting out during downshifts or approaching junctions/roundabouts and traffic lights, was to heel and toe the dam thing.
It took the skill of an now defunct VW specialist to find and rectify the broken wire, but by then heel and toeing had become totally intuitive and normal when driving. Little did I know just how useful it would be in later (911) life
Slippydiff said:
I learnt to heel and toe in a 16 Valve Jetta GTi. "Why Slippy" ? I hear you asking ....
Because the wire to the idle stabilisation valve had broken (inside the insulation where you couldn't see it) and the only way to stop it cutting out during downshifts or approaching junctions/roundabouts and traffic lights, was to heel and toe the dam thing.
Because the wire to the idle stabilisation valve had broken (inside the insulation where you couldn't see it) and the only way to stop it cutting out during downshifts or approaching junctions/roundabouts and traffic lights, was to heel and toe the dam thing.
Thinking on, I'm sure I had a Ford Festa with dodgy auto-choke that once required that trick.I know I managed to bodge a failed clutch cable bulkhead grommet on an XR2 with a spanner well enough to drive from Newcastle Under Lyme to Stafford. Happy days!
Prodigous - noted. Spellchecker!
Great thread, although I am late to the party.
I'm new(ish) to the GT3 but I've done some racing, rallying and my fair share of track driving over the years.
Instructing some new guys in our FWD race car at Donington on Friday and Sunday last week (some of them Porsche drivers) it struck me how similar the style needs to be in our race car (but for different reasons) vs. my own 996GT3 and LW aircooled car to get the best lap time.
The customers have the tendency to start the day slowing down in a straight line and then turning the wheel and wondering what happened, as they understeer past the apex. Still off all the pedals, they apply more steering lock. More understeer as we sail (slowly) towards the grass. The other technique is to try and flick the car into corners using the steering, or to stab wildly at the brake pedal to provoke the car.
I always try and explain that although the steering wheel charts the general direction of travel, and starts the process of turn in, you actually steer the car during the corners on the pedals.
After we have the right gears and lines for the corners I try to teach and teach them to smooth and slow down every action, braking, steering, throttle. Then we can trail brake into the corners and get on the gas very early to managing the weight transfer. This gets the car to rotate on turn in, transition to throttle, maintain apex speed and manage the exit, opening the steering not tightening it from the apex.
It's amazing how much easier they find it once they calm down and relax.
And this is exactly my approach to track driving any 911!
Systems on newer cars (of any church) can get in the way of this style. This is why I am glad my preferred flavour of GT3 only brings ABS to the party and leaves everything else up to the driver. In years to come I expect this will be highly prized.
Roll on more threads like this one.
I'm new(ish) to the GT3 but I've done some racing, rallying and my fair share of track driving over the years.
Instructing some new guys in our FWD race car at Donington on Friday and Sunday last week (some of them Porsche drivers) it struck me how similar the style needs to be in our race car (but for different reasons) vs. my own 996GT3 and LW aircooled car to get the best lap time.
The customers have the tendency to start the day slowing down in a straight line and then turning the wheel and wondering what happened, as they understeer past the apex. Still off all the pedals, they apply more steering lock. More understeer as we sail (slowly) towards the grass. The other technique is to try and flick the car into corners using the steering, or to stab wildly at the brake pedal to provoke the car.
I always try and explain that although the steering wheel charts the general direction of travel, and starts the process of turn in, you actually steer the car during the corners on the pedals.
After we have the right gears and lines for the corners I try to teach and teach them to smooth and slow down every action, braking, steering, throttle. Then we can trail brake into the corners and get on the gas very early to managing the weight transfer. This gets the car to rotate on turn in, transition to throttle, maintain apex speed and manage the exit, opening the steering not tightening it from the apex.
It's amazing how much easier they find it once they calm down and relax.
And this is exactly my approach to track driving any 911!
Systems on newer cars (of any church) can get in the way of this style. This is why I am glad my preferred flavour of GT3 only brings ABS to the party and leaves everything else up to the driver. In years to come I expect this will be highly prized.
Roll on more threads like this one.
alfapork said:
Great thread, although I am late to the party.
I'm new(ish) to the GT3 but I've done some racing, rallying and my fair share of track driving over the years.
Instructing some new guys in our FWD race car at Donington on Friday and Sunday last week (some of them Porsche drivers) it struck me how similar the style needs to be in our race car (but for different reasons) vs. my own 996GT3 and LW aircooled car to get the best lap time.
The customers have the tendency to start the day slowing down in a straight line and then turning the wheel and wondering what happened, as they understeer past the apex. Still off all the pedals, they apply more steering lock. More understeer as we sail (slowly) towards the grass. The other technique is to try and flick the car into corners using the steering, or to stab wildly at the brake pedal to provoke the car.
I always try and explain that although the steering wheel charts the general direction of travel, and starts the process of turn in, you actually steer the car during the corners on the pedals.
After we have the right gears and lines for the corners I try to teach and teach them to smooth and slow down every action, braking, steering, throttle. Then we can trail brake into the corners and get on the gas very early to managing the weight transfer. This gets the car to rotate on turn in, transition to throttle, maintain apex speed and manage the exit, opening the steering not tightening it from the apex.
It's amazing how much easier they find it once they calm down and relax.
And this is exactly my approach to track driving any 911!
Systems on newer cars (of any church) can get in the way of this style. This is why I am glad my preferred flavour of GT3 only brings ABS to the party and leaves everything else up to the driver. In years to come I expect this will be highly prized.
Roll on more threads like this one.
“A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction. I'm new(ish) to the GT3 but I've done some racing, rallying and my fair share of track driving over the years.
Instructing some new guys in our FWD race car at Donington on Friday and Sunday last week (some of them Porsche drivers) it struck me how similar the style needs to be in our race car (but for different reasons) vs. my own 996GT3 and LW aircooled car to get the best lap time.
The customers have the tendency to start the day slowing down in a straight line and then turning the wheel and wondering what happened, as they understeer past the apex. Still off all the pedals, they apply more steering lock. More understeer as we sail (slowly) towards the grass. The other technique is to try and flick the car into corners using the steering, or to stab wildly at the brake pedal to provoke the car.
I always try and explain that although the steering wheel charts the general direction of travel, and starts the process of turn in, you actually steer the car during the corners on the pedals.
After we have the right gears and lines for the corners I try to teach and teach them to smooth and slow down every action, braking, steering, throttle. Then we can trail brake into the corners and get on the gas very early to managing the weight transfer. This gets the car to rotate on turn in, transition to throttle, maintain apex speed and manage the exit, opening the steering not tightening it from the apex.
It's amazing how much easier they find it once they calm down and relax.
And this is exactly my approach to track driving any 911!
Systems on newer cars (of any church) can get in the way of this style. This is why I am glad my preferred flavour of GT3 only brings ABS to the party and leaves everything else up to the driver. In years to come I expect this will be highly prized.
Roll on more threads like this one.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.”
From my “eulogy” to the 964 RS on this page here :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Excellent thread.
It's great to hear what these cars mean to people. How the sum of their parts somehow manages to transcend the pure mechanical and functional, and instead imbues a sense of soul. Characteristics that once time and familiarity allows, become intrinsically linked to the thought of, and act of driving. I've been sifting through the fog of my memory, and all of my best drives have been in 911's. An E34 5-series came close, but for different reasons, as did my Impreza P1 on a particularly bumpy, sodden B-road. None, however, have come close to the total package that the 7.1 GT3 musters as a weekend road car.
Having done so in my 7.1 C2S, and 7.2 C2s, I won't be complete until I've driven the Furka/Susten/Grimsel loop in my 7.1 GT3.
Mostly not fast. Not pushing the envelope, just reveling in the perfect marriage of scenery, roads, Alpine light and air, the smells of brakes and engine, absorbing the constant dialogue of steering and chassis, and being immersed in engine sounds. For me, it'll be motoring nirvana, and I can't wait until the summer...
Of course, it would be a shame not to pop in at the 'ring on the way back in time-honoured fashion.
Oulton Park, and Donington are fairly high up the list too, but for some reason I haven't enjoyed my recent track excursions as much as I used to. After a handful of laps I find myself getting bored (which is strange to admit), and then my mind wanders and I get overcome by mechanical sympathy. The last time I did Castle Coombe for example, I enjoyed the drive there and back more than the track time.
Nurse!....
It's great to hear what these cars mean to people. How the sum of their parts somehow manages to transcend the pure mechanical and functional, and instead imbues a sense of soul. Characteristics that once time and familiarity allows, become intrinsically linked to the thought of, and act of driving. I've been sifting through the fog of my memory, and all of my best drives have been in 911's. An E34 5-series came close, but for different reasons, as did my Impreza P1 on a particularly bumpy, sodden B-road. None, however, have come close to the total package that the 7.1 GT3 musters as a weekend road car.
Having done so in my 7.1 C2S, and 7.2 C2s, I won't be complete until I've driven the Furka/Susten/Grimsel loop in my 7.1 GT3.
Mostly not fast. Not pushing the envelope, just reveling in the perfect marriage of scenery, roads, Alpine light and air, the smells of brakes and engine, absorbing the constant dialogue of steering and chassis, and being immersed in engine sounds. For me, it'll be motoring nirvana, and I can't wait until the summer...
Of course, it would be a shame not to pop in at the 'ring on the way back in time-honoured fashion.
Oulton Park, and Donington are fairly high up the list too, but for some reason I haven't enjoyed my recent track excursions as much as I used to. After a handful of laps I find myself getting bored (which is strange to admit), and then my mind wanders and I get overcome by mechanical sympathy. The last time I did Castle Coombe for example, I enjoyed the drive there and back more than the track time.
Nurse!....
D.no said:
Oulton Park, and Donington are fairly high up the list too, but for some reason I haven't enjoyed my recent track excursions as much as I used to. After a handful of laps I find myself getting bored (which is strange to admit), and then my mind wanders and I get overcome by mechanical sympathy.
I sort of get you there. I think, once driver fatigue sets in, it can seem a bit like driving in circles. I also get the thought that I can either 'bank' the good laps and experience I've had out of the day, or risk over-doing things and then it's a step back rather than forward sometimes.
Experience bears this out. The biggest mtb crash I ever had (snapped a set of carbon fibre handlebars clean in two) was on the "last run of the day" down an Alpine black-grade downhill race course.
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