Can I afford a decent 911 for everyday use?

[IMI A]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I'd buy from somewhere like 911 Virgin or OPC and save myself the hassle. Whenever I've bought from 911V their prices are so on the money the only haggling I do is ask them to throw in a 12 month warranty. Then drive the wheels off it for 12 months knowing if anything goes wrong it will sorted quibble free.

As an example back in 2016 911V had a 997.2 C4S cab with 19k miles on the clock. £47,995. Bought and took the car to 29k miles in 12 months and sold through them again on SOR in 2017 for £48,995.00!!! Others like RSJ, JZM, 9e also get good write ups but I prefer 911V for buying and selling.

If buying yourself just go for a 111 point inspection and get them to put a 2 year warranty on as part of buying privately. I'm always quite fussy about buying original panel cars hence why I prefer to take 911V advice on it. OPCs tend not to tell you mainly because the salesman simply doesn't know. Same with private sellers they really don't know unless they're the first owner.

[WCZ]

IMI A said:

It’s a tiptronic hence I think I’d rather buy 911 Virgins manual car - worth the premium over a tip (for me) for sure. They’re not scrap and of course you can dd them but don’t think you won’t get eye watering bills. Rusty turbos £10k pls. Gearbox breaks £10k pls. Engine breaks (mine did) £15-£25k to rebuild and if it’s too far gone like the 997 GT2s engine sitting at Porsche Torque which has identical engine a new engine on exchange basis now £50k! 3 Rads £5k. Clutch if manual £3k. Rather than chat about it go buy one and daily lol. If I was buying for that type of dd 10-15k type use I’d go for an M2 (never had a BMW and I love it’s muscle car looks)

would you advise against anyone buying any 997 turbo without a £30k fund for repairs or a warranty?

I had one for a few weeks years a go and loved it dearly, an absolute weapon.

[IMI A]

WCZ said:

IMI A said:

It’s a tiptronic hence I think I’d rather buy 911 Virgins manual car - worth the premium over a tip (for me) for sure. They’re not scrap and of course you can dd them but don’t think you won’t get eye watering bills. Rusty turbos £10k pls. Gearbox breaks £10k pls. Engine breaks (mine did) £15-£25k to rebuild and if it’s too far gone like the 997 GT2s engine sitting at Porsche Torque which has identical engine a new engine on exchange basis now £50k! 3 Rads £5k. Clutch if manual £3k. Rather than chat about it go buy one and daily lol. If I was buying for that type of dd 10-15k type use I’d go for an M2 (never had a BMW and I love it’s muscle car looks)

would you advise against anyone buying any 997 turbo without a £30k fund for repairs or a warranty?

I had one for a few weeks years a go and loved it dearly, an absolute weapon.

If a dd I'd advise an OPC warranty an absolute no brainer. Poor fellow with GT2 with blown engine has an amazing car sitting at the Porsche garage and doesn't know what to do. Really would not want someone to be in his shoes as its not a nice place to be. Every time I go to an Indy both 9e and Porsche Torque they have a couple of 996/997 turbo mezgers being rebuilt. Perhaps coincidence? More 997.1 turbo engine than 996 - curious as they are newer.

[prismv]

IMI A said:

WCZ said:

IMI A said:

It’s a tiptronic hence I think I’d rather buy 911 Virgins manual car - worth the premium over a tip (for me) for sure. They’re not scrap and of course you can dd them but don’t think you won’t get eye watering bills. Rusty turbos £10k pls. Gearbox breaks £10k pls. Engine breaks (mine did) £15-£25k to rebuild and if it’s too far gone like the 997 GT2s engine sitting at Porsche Torque which has identical engine a new engine on exchange basis now £50k! 3 Rads £5k. Clutch if manual £3k. Rather than chat about it go buy one and daily lol. If I was buying for that type of dd 10-15k type use I’d go for an M2 (never had a BMW and I love it’s muscle car looks)

would you advise against anyone buying any 997 turbo without a £30k fund for repairs or a warranty?

I had one for a few weeks years a go and loved it dearly, an absolute weapon.

If a dd I'd advise an OPC warranty an absolute no brainer. Poor fellow with GT2 with blown engine has an amazing car sitting at the Porsche garage and doesn't know what to do. Really would not want someone to be in his shoes as its not a nice place to be. Every time I go to an Indy both 9e and Porsche Torque they have a couple of 996/997 turbo mezgers being rebuilt. Perhaps coincidence? More 997.1 turbo engine than 996 - curious as they are newer.

This sounds horrific, how do you blow an engine like that?
I maybe somewhat naive but I’ve never understood why anyone would run a performance car without paying for a decent warranty even if it’s just for piece of mind

[IMI A]

prismv said:

IMI A said:

WCZ said:

IMI A said:

It’s a tiptronic hence I think I’d rather buy 911 Virgins manual car - worth the premium over a tip (for me) for sure. They’re not scrap and of course you can dd them but don’t think you won’t get eye watering bills. Rusty turbos £10k pls. Gearbox breaks £10k pls. Engine breaks (mine did) £15-£25k to rebuild and if it’s too far gone like the 997 GT2s engine sitting at Porsche Torque which has identical engine a new engine on exchange basis now £50k! 3 Rads £5k. Clutch if manual £3k. Rather than chat about it go buy one and daily lol. If I was buying for that type of dd 10-15k type use I’d go for an M2 (never had a BMW and I love it’s muscle car looks)

would you advise against anyone buying any 997 turbo without a £30k fund for repairs or a warranty?

I had one for a few weeks years a go and loved it dearly, an absolute weapon.

If a dd I'd advise an OPC warranty an absolute no brainer. Poor fellow with GT2 with blown engine has an amazing car sitting at the Porsche garage and doesn't know what to do. Really would not want someone to be in his shoes as its not a nice place to be. Every time I go to an Indy both 9e and Porsche Torque they have a couple of 996/997 turbo mezgers being rebuilt. Perhaps coincidence? More 997.1 turbo engine than 996 - curious as they are newer.

This sounds horrific, how do you blow an engine like that?
I maybe somewhat naive but I’ve never understood why anyone would run a performance car without paying for a decent warranty even if it’s just for piece of mind

I’ve blown one cruising on autobahn at 165-175 mph. Car had only done 60k miles. Or a mis shift can cause failure. Driving with low oil etc. There’s lots of them at Indy’s nowadays. Remember a 996 turbo which basically has same engine as 997.1 turbo (someone was recommending to you) they’re like 20 yr old cars and things go wrong even on new cars.

[nunpuncher]

IMI A said:

It’s a tiptronic hence I think I’d rather buy 911 Virgins manual car - worth the premium over a tip (for me) for sure. They’re not scrap and of course you can dd them but don’t think you won’t get eye watering bills. Rusty turbos £10k pls. Gearbox breaks £10k pls. Engine breaks (mine did) £15-£25k to rebuild and if it’s too far gone like the 997 GT2s engine sitting at Porsche Torque which has identical engine a new engine on exchange basis now £50k! 3 Rads £5k. Clutch if manual £3k. Rather than chat about it go buy one and daily lol. If I was buying for that type of dd 10-15k type use I’d go for an M2 (never had a BMW and I love it’s muscle car looks)

Interested to know where you got those prices from? Radiators cost roughly £250 each and it's not a difficult job for any garage to do in less than a day. Clutch kit is less than £1k and it certainly doesn't take £2k worth of work to fit (labour for the clutch on my C4 was £680).

I'm not saying big bills aren't possible. I just think there's a tendency to report worst case and most expensive way of fixing things ie OPC or specialist.

[IMI A]

nunpuncher said:

IMI A said:

It’s a tiptronic hence I think I’d rather buy 911 Virgins manual car - worth the premium over a tip (for me) for sure. They’re not scrap and of course you can dd them but don’t think you won’t get eye watering bills. Rusty turbos £10k pls. Gearbox breaks £10k pls. Engine breaks (mine did) £15-£25k to rebuild and if it’s too far gone like the 997 GT2s engine sitting at Porsche Torque which has identical engine a new engine on exchange basis now £50k! 3 Rads £5k. Clutch if manual £3k. Rather than chat about it go buy one and daily lol. If I was buying for that type of dd 10-15k type use I’d go for an M2 (never had a BMW and I love it’s muscle car looks)

Interested to know where you got those prices from? Radiators cost roughly £250 each and it's not a difficult job for any garage to do in less than a day. Clutch kit is less than £1k and it certainly doesn't take £2k worth of work to fit (labour for the clutch on my C4 was £680).

I'm not saying big bills aren't possible. I just think there's a tendency to report worst case and most expensive way of fixing things ie OPC or specialist.

Yes this is all at OPC prices. Never bothered me as the five rads I went through in first 60k miles all under warranty. Clutch is about £2-3k might be cheaper I don’t forensically verify every receipt. Can go check if you like. The broken gearbox, engine, turbos are the main items and they are spot on if you include labour, parts and vat. If you’re getting your own hands dirty then it’s a different and probably more rewarding ownership proposition knowing you’ve screwed every part in correctly yourself .

Your C4 really not comparable to a mezger turbo in any way at all by the way. Rads completely different and we have more of them for a start.

Edited by IMI A on Wednesday 21st August 17:21

[nunpuncher]

No, they are comparable. The radiators are behind the front bumper just the same. Different parts and the turbo has the small mid mount one but the job is no more complicated. It's just another couple of bolts and a few hose clamps. It wouldn't even add 1 hour to the job over a C4 or C2. The £250 per radiator I quoted was for a 997t. Carrera radiators are only about £150.

Same story with clutch. The price I quoted (c£1k) is for a 997t kit. A Carrera clutch kit is much less expensive. And the procedure to change a clutch on a turbo and a C4 is directly comparable. They use the same chassis so the same braces need removing, box is in the same location, both 4wd so you need to remove shafts from the same locations. It's no more complex and time consuming despite being a totally different engine and box.

I'm not questioning whether you paid those prices, I'm just saying that short of specific engine components (anything directly bolted to or in a Metzger is pricey). You can keep them running tip top for a reasonable cost.

[IMI A]

nunpuncher said:

No, they are comparable. The radiators are behind the front bumper just the same. Different parts and the turbo has the small mid mount one but the job is no more complicated. It's just another couple of bolts and a few hose clamps. It wouldn't even add 1 hour to the job over a C4 or C2. The £250 per radiator I quoted was for a 997t. Carrera radiators are only about £150.

Same story with clutch. The price I quoted (c£1k) is for a 997t kit. A Carrera clutch kit is much less expensive. And the procedure to change a clutch on a turbo and a C4 is directly comparable. They use the same chassis so the same braces need removing, box is in the same location, both 4wd so you need to remove shafts from the same locations. It's no more complex and time consuming despite being a totally different engine and box.

I'm not questioning whether you paid those prices, I'm just saying that short of specific engine components (anything directly bolted to or in a Metzger is pricey). You can keep them running tip top for a reasonable cost.

Okay but how many of us work on our own cars? Also many people choose to upgrade clutch to a better one. The stock clutch won't hold 700bhp. The radiators are also an item that often get upgraded in due course to CSF billet items etc 90% of owners just send to an Indy or OPC. I'd lovebto be able to work on my own car but no doubt I'd wreck it. The amount of niggly issues I hear about especially with turbo cars with boost leaks , turbo not boosting even have OPCs scratching their heads let alone most of us.

[nunpuncher]

prismv said:

This sounds horrific, how do you blow an engine like that?
I maybe somewhat naive but I’ve never understood why anyone would run a performance car without paying for a decent warranty even if it’s just for piece of mind

Option 1 £50k 997t
You have no warranty and terrible luck. It goes tits up and you spend £15k on a light rebuild rebuild, £3k on a clutch, £2k on radiators, £1k on tyres, £2k on suspension, £1k on brakes. After 3 years you cash out and get £40k back (easy sale as it's had everything done).
Total cost = £34,000

Option 2 brand new 992
You pay £20k up front and £850pm for 36 months. You replace tyres once and brakes once at a cost of £2k as not covered by warranty.
Total cost = £52,600

Remember option 1 is ALMOST worst case.
More often than not ownership won't go that badly. Worst case is the car is scrap which means you lose as much as option 2. With option 2 the cost is guaranteed. Only the very best man maths can make 2 look wise.

Edited by nunpuncher on Wednesday 21st August 20:42

Edited by nunpuncher on Wednesday 21st August 22:41

[nunpuncher]

IMI A said:

Okay but how many of us work on our own cars? Also many people choose to upgrade clutch to a better one. The stock clutch won't hold 700bhp. The radiators are also an item that often get upgraded in due course to CSF billet items etc 90% of owners just send to an Indy or OPC. I'd lovebto be able to work on my own car but no doubt I'd wreck it. The amount of niggly issues I hear about especially with turbo cars with boost leaks , turbo not boosting even have OPCs scratching their heads let alone most of us.

That was just parts prices, I never mentioned doing the work DIY. Obviously if you can then it's even cheaper. I just think £4k for parts mark up, labour and VAT on a clutch and £2k mark up, labour and VAT on radiators is hefty even at an OPC never mind specialist.

When talking about used 911s in general for every story of someone with a heavy bill or niggling issues there's another story of someone running one for years on nothing but routine maintenance and consumables. I think it's important to give balance.

[IMI A]

Balance - advising someone to buy a 13 yr old turbo as a daily to do 10-15k miles a year? Really?

Alternatively the OP has a decent car allowance. He can even opt to buy the 992 at the end of 3,4,5 loan period for essentially final payment + deposit - you really don’t feel the monthly car payment if you car allowance covers it. You do realise this is how 95% buyers in the Western Hemisphere purchase their cars?!

As far as 997 goes I can only provide my own experience over 90k miles. Inc £50k mods, £17k of finance cost car cost £220,000. They’re super cars but not a dd in the way cars have moved on today to the next level of refinement. When you’re a tired after work a 997 turbo can be v.hard work. It’s a surprisingly physical car to drive fast. 992 a walk in the park by comparison. Go drive them both. Hard not to like the 992 imo but yes for some petrolheads a 997.1 turbo no doubt better! Happy?

[prismv]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Edited by cossers on Wednesday 21st August 22:59

Well the car allowance I was just taking as cash as I had paid for my BMW 4 years ago.

[prismv]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Sure will post
Went for Gentian blue

[dgswk]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Edited by cossers on Wednesday 21st August 22:59

Without going off topic into the murky world of car allowances, any half decent 5 series / A6 company car will cost you a fortune in tax - I opted out a few years back, but logged back in yesterday to see what was on offer - a nice A6 S-Line saloon with a touring pack and a few other bits ticked - a £50k car, that will cost you getting on for £550 a month in tax deductions alone. A nice 530e Touring - very tax efficient - cracking on for £450 a month to you Mr Income Tax payer.

So you take your £7-8k car allowance instead, get taxed on it, and voila, you've got £8-900 a month to spend on a 911 - as long as your miles are not ridiculous. Mine are semi-ridiculous so I run a shed, which the rebate on the 45p/25p mileage rates (less the 13p fuel which my employer pays) more than covers the wear and tear on that.

So its actually going to cost me my £15k deposit to drive a 911 for 4 years, some of which I may or may not get back. And of course, if the worst happens, I'll have to sell it and start polishing my shed.

Why wouldn't you if you've always wanted a 911?

[IMI A]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Edited by cossers on Wednesday 21st August 22:59

Have a look at 997 turbo pic thread. Will not sell for less than £50k and doubt anyone will pay that for a one owner 90k mile 911 turbo - she's concours inside and out and can't see the point of having to add £150k on top for a slower 991 / 992 turbo S and TBH I prefer the smaller 997. If working in UK I'd replace with a base standard 992 Carrera, PTS Gulf Blue, Carbon Roof, Sports Seats, PCCB, BBS F1 R, job done

[nunpuncher]

IMI A said:

Balance - advising someone to buy a 13 yr old turbo as a daily to do 10-15k miles a year? Really?

Alternatively the OP has a decent car allowance. He can even opt to buy the 992 at the end of 3,4,5 loan period for essentially final payment + deposit - you really don’t feel the monthly car payment if you car allowance covers it. You do realise this is how 95% buyers in the Western Hemisphere purchase their cars?!

As far as 997 goes I can only provide my own experience over 90k miles. Inc £50k mods, £17k of finance cost car cost £220,000. They’re super cars but not a dd in the way cars have moved on today to the next level of refinement. When you’re a tired after work a 997 turbo can be v.hard work. It’s a surprisingly physical car to drive fast. 992 a walk in the park by comparison. Go drive them both. Hard not to like the 992 imo but yes for some petrolheads a 997.1 turbo no doubt better! Happy?

Quoting costs to run a highly modified 997t with £50k of gold plated upgrades sprinkled with go faster pixie dust like it's normal running costs is hardly balanced either. The original question here was with regard to ANY 911.... not even a turbo let alone one modified to that level.

I gave an example of potential repair costs without a warranty to illustrate why people take the risk. I wasn't advising to buy a 13 year old turbo. I only used the turbo as an example because I figure the potential costs are higher than a 997.2 or 991.1 C2/4/S and therefor gives a worst case rather than best case example. I didn't want to make the margin between financed and used as huge as it could be.

Hands up, I've never driven a 997t. I did briefly run a 996.2t as a daily. it had over 100k miles on it, never gave any major issues and since I wasn't setting lap records on my way home from work I never found it that physical (surprising as I'm a pathetically built non director with no goatee). I've been fortunate enough to run a few undesirable older 911s and have driven lots of variants of 996, 997 and more recently 991 C2S, GTS, GT3 and a 992 (which a friend traded his 991.1 GTS for and now regrets). I'm afraid I'm one of those folk that's in the 997t camp despite not even having driven it. To refined and civilised for me and reminded me more of a recent drive in a B9 RS4 rather than an older 911.

PS. Where did you get that stat on 95% of people in the Western Hemisphere buying with a car allowance? Guestimate?

[IMI A]

nunpuncher said:

IMI A said:

Balance - advising someone to buy a 13 yr old turbo as a daily to do 10-15k miles a year? Really?

Alternatively the OP has a decent car allowance. He can even opt to buy the 992 at the end of 3,4,5 loan period for essentially final payment + deposit - you really don’t feel the monthly car payment if you car allowance covers it. You do realise this is how 95% buyers in the Western Hemisphere purchase their cars?!

As far as 997 goes I can only provide my own experience over 90k miles. Inc £50k mods, £17k of finance cost car cost £220,000. They’re super cars but not a dd in the way cars have moved on today to the next level of refinement. When you’re a tired after work a 997 turbo can be v.hard work. It’s a surprisingly physical car to drive fast. 992 a walk in the park by comparison. Go drive them both. Hard not to like the 992 imo but yes for some petrolheads a 997.1 turbo no doubt better! Happy?

Quoting costs to run a highly modified 997t with £50k of gold plated upgrades sprinkled with go faster pixie dust like it's normal running costs is hardly balanced either. The original question here was with regard to ANY 911.... not even a turbo let alone one modified to that level.

I gave an example of potential repair costs without a warranty to illustrate why people take the risk. I wasn't advising to buy a 13 year old turbo. I only used the turbo as an example because I figure the potential costs are higher than a 997.2 or 991.1 C2/4/S and therefor gives a worst case rather than best case example. I didn't want to make the margin between financed and used as huge as it could be.

Hands up, I've never driven a 997t. I did briefly run a 996.2t as a daily. it had over 100k miles on it, never gave any major issues and since I wasn't setting lap records on my way home from work I never found it that physical (surprising as I'm a pathetically built non director with no goatee). I've been fortunate enough to run a few undesirable older 911s and have driven lots of variants of 996, 997 and more recently 991 C2S, GTS, GT3 and a 992 (which a friend traded his 991.1 GTS for and now regrets). I'm afraid I'm one of those folk that's in the 997t camp despite not even having driven it. To refined and civilised for me and reminded me more of a recent drive in a B9 RS4 rather than an older 911.

PS. Where did you get that stat on 95% of people in the Western Hemisphere buying with a car allowance? Guestimate?

Yes guess.

She's not cost very much to run at all since tuning. £102k to buy new 2007. Running cost inc warranty £57k to Nov 2014 which included finance interest of £17k over first 3 years after which I bought her but excluded fuel and car insurance.

£50k of mods to address the issues you talk about being too refined etc includes £20k full restoration post ending up in a farmers field at VMAX a few years ago. Nothing but light nicks and grazes thankfully she's still original panel but thought rude not to give her the full works. Since tuning in 2014 I've spent maybe £10k on repairs / servicing and half of that was because I blew my clutch up as clutch fork broke (should have been changed to GT3 RS item when LWFW installed by 9e but i went back to dual mass so happy as LWFW was too grabby). I had to replace a couple of drive shafts too post modding to handle 700bhp. A new 992 turbo will be left for dead. Well a 991.2 turbo s is (on road).

I still have big brake set to fit which I have lying around and some trick DSC tractive dampers at some stage

Of the older stuff I would find a 997 GTS or 991 GTS very difficult to look past. Let the OP know this myself off line

[drjdog]

johnwilliams77 said:

drjdog said:

This thread is quite something.

Please elaborate that highly insightful comment

OP is barmy.

[prismv]

drjdog said:

johnwilliams77 said:

drjdog said:

This thread is quite something.

Please elaborate that highly insightful comment

OP is barmy.

Barmy for allowing myself to purchase a car I’ve always wanted?