The future of EV charging?
Discussion
It would appear in a bid to get Ev up and running a number of free charging points were installed.
I understand other points levy a fee for the electricity.
Having seen petrol stations remove LPG points (presumably because demand is low and they can make more per sqm of forecourt on petrol/diesel) what is likely to happen for EV? Presumably for EV points to be worthwhile in petrol stations ( or whatever they are called going forwards) the cost of a charge will be quite significant? I appreciate the major cost of fuel is tax but presumably the government will tax EV points in a similar way in the future to protect revenue?
I understand that a fill up of £52 equates to roughly £18.50 for the petrol - I don’t know what profit there is on that but for, say, a 250 mile range are EV’s likely to be paying £18.50 for such a charge?
I understand other points levy a fee for the electricity.
Having seen petrol stations remove LPG points (presumably because demand is low and they can make more per sqm of forecourt on petrol/diesel) what is likely to happen for EV? Presumably for EV points to be worthwhile in petrol stations ( or whatever they are called going forwards) the cost of a charge will be quite significant? I appreciate the major cost of fuel is tax but presumably the government will tax EV points in a similar way in the future to protect revenue?
I understand that a fill up of £52 equates to roughly £18.50 for the petrol - I don’t know what profit there is on that but for, say, a 250 mile range are EV’s likely to be paying £18.50 for such a charge?
BP & Shell are both installing rapid chargers at filling stations, charging upto 40p per Kw. They can charge at upto 150Kw per hour.
So EV batteries are generally between 40 to 100 KW capacity, so you can work out costs/timings from these figures.
Also bear in mind most charging is based upon 20 to 80 %.
So EV batteries are generally between 40 to 100 KW capacity, so you can work out costs/timings from these figures.
Also bear in mind most charging is based upon 20 to 80 %.
I think it's inevitable that EV charging ultimately takes on three different forms:
1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc. Potentially also at small rural coffee shops, pubs, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we have them today will cease to exist; I just don't see a significant use-case for them. However, I suspect there may be a transition period where existing petrol stations offer DC fast charging until domestic charging becomes viable for those who don't yet have the means to charge at home.
1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc. Potentially also at small rural coffee shops, pubs, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we have them today will cease to exist; I just don't see a significant use-case for them. However, I suspect there may be a transition period where existing petrol stations offer DC fast charging until domestic charging becomes viable for those who don't yet have the means to charge at home.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 25th August 08:15
kambites said:
I think it's inevitable that EV charging ultimately takes on three different forms:
1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we see them today will pretty much cease to exist.
That's pretty much how the grid is shaping up today with home chargers, rapids at Tesco/Lidl/Banontynes etc and with BP and Shell placing rapid chargers on their service station network.1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we see them today will pretty much cease to exist.
Evanivitch said:
kambites said:
I think it's inevitable that EV charging ultimately takes on three different forms:
1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we see them today will pretty much cease to exist.
That's pretty much how the grid is shaping up today with home chargers, rapids at Tesco/Lidl/Banontynes etc and with BP and Shell placing rapid chargers on their service station network.1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we see them today will pretty much cease to exist.
Westgate Shopping Centre Oxford said:
We have 50 parking bays available with HV charge points. The chargers are free to use and operate 7.2kw – 32A with type 2 lock plug systems. Please note, you will need to bring your own charging cable to use this facility.
FlossyThePig said:
Evanivitch said:
kambites said:
I think it's inevitable that EV charging ultimately takes on three different forms:
1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we see them today will pretty much cease to exist.
That's pretty much how the grid is shaping up today with home chargers, rapids at Tesco/Lidl/Banontynes etc and with BP and Shell placing rapid chargers on their service station network.1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we see them today will pretty much cease to exist.
Westgate Shopping Centre Oxford said:
We have 50 parking bays available with HV charge points. The chargers are free to use and operate 7.2kw – 32A with type 2 lock plug systems. Please note, you will need to bring your own charging cable to use this facility.
Obviously right now, when you have dozens of chargers that isn't an issue.
kambites said:
I think it's inevitable that EV charging ultimately takes on three different forms:
1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc. Potentially also at small rural coffee shops, pubs, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we have them today will cease to exist; I just don't see a significant use-case for them. However, I suspect there may be a transition period where existing petrol stations offer DC fast charging until domestic charging becomes viable for those who don't yet have the means to charge at home.
Also agree. But I'd add:1) The majority of charging will be performed overnight, either from private residential supplies or via cheap slow chargers at the side of the street.
2) On top of that, I think fast DC chargers will appear in moderate numbers in car parks at shopping centres, supermarkets, etc. Potentially also at small rural coffee shops, pubs, etc.
3) The third form will be the equivalent of motorway service stations, but probably spread across major A roads as well.
I think small petrol stations as we have them today will cease to exist; I just don't see a significant use-case for them. However, I suspect there may be a transition period where existing petrol stations offer DC fast charging until domestic charging becomes viable for those who don't yet have the means to charge at home.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 25th August 08:15
4) Fast chargers will be needed in cities where home charging is not possible without major works
5) Petrol stations will mostly be a thing of the past in 20 years with the remaining ones being on major transport routes
There is still the perception that everyone will drive home from work and plug in their EV's and overload the grid but already cars are up to 300 miles of range and this will only increase generally. People will only need to charge up once a week/twice a week.
Evanivitch said:
Yeah I'm still a bit mixed on the mass-slow charger model. Seems it will always involve charge points being blocked by someone that has already finished a charge.
Obviously right now, when you have dozens of chargers that isn't an issue.
Swingeing penalty charges for overstaying is the answer to that.Obviously right now, when you have dozens of chargers that isn't an issue.
ElectricSoup said:
Evanivitch said:
Yeah I'm still a bit mixed on the mass-slow charger model. Seems it will always involve charge points being blocked by someone that has already finished a charge.
Obviously right now, when you have dozens of chargers that isn't an issue.
Swingeing penalty charges for overstaying is the answer to that.Obviously right now, when you have dozens of chargers that isn't an issue.
RobDickinson said:
ElectricSoup said:
Evanivitch said:
Yeah I'm still a bit mixed on the mass-slow charger model. Seems it will always involve charge points being blocked by someone that has already finished a charge.
Obviously right now, when you have dozens of chargers that isn't an issue.
Swingeing penalty charges for overstaying is the answer to that.Obviously right now, when you have dozens of chargers that isn't an issue.
Some already do this - £4 for the first hour and £12 per hour after.
Both slow and rapid have their place. Slow where you will be leaving your car for a period of time (train stations, office car parks etc) and rapid in coffee shops/petrol stations.
The starbucks near me have just had them fitted by Instavolt and they are charging 35p per kilowatt which is reasonable especially for a 50Kw charger. By the time you have had a coffee you are charged and ready to go.
Both slow and rapid have their place. Slow where you will be leaving your car for a period of time (train stations, office car parks etc) and rapid in coffee shops/petrol stations.
The starbucks near me have just had them fitted by Instavolt and they are charging 35p per kilowatt which is reasonable especially for a 50Kw charger. By the time you have had a coffee you are charged and ready to go.
I'm not sure the infrastructure needs to increase so much. With ICE vehicles en-route refueling was a necessity mainly due to the fact that few people had large petrol storage facilities at home, rather than the need for maximum range. As each generation of battery increases the range, and since most charging will be done at home, overnight, the actual number of people regularly requiring en-route charging for 300 mile+ days of traveling must be tiny as a proportion of drivers.
Put it this way - if you started your day with a full tank of petrol, every day, how often do you think you would have to visit a petrol station?
Put it this way - if you started your day with a full tank of petrol, every day, how often do you think you would have to visit a petrol station?
Frimley111R said:
4) Fast chargers will be needed in cities where home charging is not possible without major works
In the short term perhaps, but I think the long term solution has to be slow charging available pretty much everywhere anyone keeps their car. You might get away with a tiny proportion of vehicles being primarily fast-charged during the day, but it just doesn't work from an infrastructure point of view if more than a handful of people do it. I think from a practical point of view, the aim has to be that 80+% of electricity used for automotive purposes is drawn at night.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 27th August 12:43
kambites said:
Frimley111R said:
4) Fast chargers will be needed in cities where home charging is not possible without major works
In the short term perhaps, but I think the long term solution has to be slow charging available pretty much everywhere anyone keeps their car. You might get away with a tiny proportion of vehicles being primarily fast-charged during the day, but it just doesn't work from an infrastructure point of view if more than a handful of people do it. I think from a practical point of view, the aim has to be that 80+% of electricity used for automotive purposes is drawn at night.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 27th August 12:43
LimaDelta said:
I'm not sure the infrastructure needs to increase so much. With ICE vehicles en-route refueling was a necessity mainly due to the fact that few people had large petrol storage facilities at home, rather than the need for maximum range. As each generation of battery increases the range, and since most charging will be done at home, overnight, the actual number of people regularly requiring en-route charging for 300 mile+ days of traveling must be tiny as a proportion of drivers.
Put it this way - if you started your day with a full tank of petrol, every day, how often do you think you would have to visit a petrol station?
Exactly this. I could also imagine there being a case where more and more spaces have charging provision, at the supermarket, at the shopping centre, at the cinema etc. Even at a slow speed, you'd probably cover the power need for getting there and back from home.Put it this way - if you started your day with a full tank of petrol, every day, how often do you think you would have to visit a petrol station?
The problem comes for those in terraced houses, or houses with no dedicated off-road parking. For those there's going to need to be some public solution for streetside charging.
But overall, yes, it's a mindset shift - your last sentence absolutely covers it.
Frimley111R said:
I'm not sure that you'll ever achieve that in cities where there is only on street parking. running cabling into the streets for all those older properties is a mammoth task (although technically achievable).
A mammoth task it may be, but probably a smaller one than increasing peak grid capacity by enough to let city dwellers fast-charge during the day. It's made easier by the fact that power is already available on most residential streets for lighting and since street lights have been converting from relatively inefficient technologies to LEDs, there's a fair surplus of capacity there as well. Even if the cables aren't sufficient for the ultimate demand, at least the conduit is present to get power there (one has to hope street light cables are replaceable and hence upgradable without digging up the road, although with the idiotic "outsource road works to the cheapest bodger" approach which the UK takes to take, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 27th August 14:01
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