PS4S N0 v P-Zero N1
Discussion
MadMark911 said:
This thread makes some interesting reading and makes me wonder how on earth the Pirellis get so slagged off. I have a 3 month old set on my car (fitted by the dealer) and I think they and the 911's chassis are a superb combination! In the the last 5 years I've run many cars and so sampled on the Conti 6's, MPSS, PZeros, Bridgestone S001's etc. I should also add that I love Michelin tyres and have pretty consistently bought the latest Pilot Sport version when I had the choice. ....
However, I like the PZero's, so while I get that they may go "hard" as they get old and to me they feel optimised for dry weather (getting stickier as you make them work harder); they do have a tyre label rating of "A" in the wet where the Michelin 4S's only get a "B". I've had nothing but predictable handling, wet or dry and the 911 has surprised me with the amount of traction it generates off wet roundabouts. So I can only conclude that my almost brand new N1's are better than the earlier (and older) "N0" certification .....
The good news is that Black Circles are now stocking the Michelin PS4's in an "N0" rating - so those that hate the Pirelli's can change them immediately as long as they need or are happy with a 305 section rear. Me - I'm happy to stick with mine and blame myself for any errors, and I'll be very upset if they last beyond 10,000 miles as I certainly won't have been enjoying them or the car enough ....
easy they have no feel in the wet what so ever even the N1's, they have less grip in the dry, they go hard and crack, if you track you melt them in less than 1 lap etc etc, N0 and N1 P zero's are really sHowever, I like the PZero's, so while I get that they may go "hard" as they get old and to me they feel optimised for dry weather (getting stickier as you make them work harder); they do have a tyre label rating of "A" in the wet where the Michelin 4S's only get a "B". I've had nothing but predictable handling, wet or dry and the 911 has surprised me with the amount of traction it generates off wet roundabouts. So I can only conclude that my almost brand new N1's are better than the earlier (and older) "N0" certification .....
The good news is that Black Circles are now stocking the Michelin PS4's in an "N0" rating - so those that hate the Pirelli's can change them immediately as long as they need or are happy with a 305 section rear. Me - I'm happy to stick with mine and blame myself for any errors, and I'll be very upset if they last beyond 10,000 miles as I certainly won't have been enjoying them or the car enough ....
Edited by MadMark911 on Tuesday 17th September 09:07
t tyres and yes I have had both sadly, MY 981 Spyder came on them, it spins up in 3rd in a straight line ffs and turn in was on faith alone !.also you need to be carefull what you look for, I see MANY people falling for PS4's that is NOT the sporty tyre it's the PS4S's
I put PS4S's on my 991.1 GTS it's like having a proper sports car, I have been using Michelin for 20+ years PS2's to Pilot super Sports, to PS4S's nothing comes close, not even slighty close.
I have binned 2 new sets of P-zero as I hate them so much and I binned my Dunlops 1/2 worn and my Goodyears, I have had all brands Bridgestone , Good years, Dunlops and nothing comes close to the Sporty Michelin line up in the past 20 years for road use, As for track , EVERY record is on CUPS it's a given.
the PS4S is a UHP tyre so you never see it in tests vs the P-zero
I also think Continental wins are fixed :-) and most sponsors seems to be "Continental" funny that and tests results are so different with the "The conti" it backs up the bulls
t on those tyres, the figures for braking are NOT consistent test for test, where the PS4S is.All I know is I have done a million miles in 74 cars and in the wet for a UHP tyre the PS4S amazes me time and time again.
and it also wins lowest fuel use and long life, so it's the best dry tyre, the best wet tyre, the best wet track tyre, the longest lasting tyres, the most MpG tyre !! WHY DO PEOPLE BUY ANYTHING ELSE !!!
best road tyre know to man and the one used in many wet track days by users and racers.
what also amazes me is
1: people saying CUPS are safe and offer loads of grip in the wet and
2: P-zero are good !!!
3: Dunlops race maxx work in the wet !
the 3 biggest jokes on tyre talks on forums ;-)
Porsche911R said:
easy they have no feel in the wet what so ever even the N1's, they have less grip in the dry, they go hard and crack, if you track you melt them in less than 1 lap etc etc, N0 and N1 P zero's are really st tyres and yes I have had both sadly, MY 981 Spyder came on them, it spins up in 3rd in a straight line ffs and turn in was on faith alone !.
also you need to be carefull what you look for, I see MANY people falling for PS4's that is NOT the sporty tyre it's the PS4S's
I put PS4S's on my 991.1 GTS it's like having a proper sports car, I have been using Michelin for 20+ years PS2's to Pilot super Sports, to PS4S's nothing comes close, not even slighty close.
I have binned 2 new sets of P-zero as I hate them so much and I binned my Dunlops 1/2 worn and my Goodyears, I have had all brands Bridgestone , Good years, Dunlops and nothing comes close to the Sporty Michelin line up in the past 20 years for road use, As for track , EVERY record is on CUPS it's a given.
the PS4S is a UHP tyre so you never see it in tests vs the P-zero
I also think Continental wins are fixed :-) and most sponsors seems to be "Continental" funny that and tests results are so different with the "The conti" it backs up the bullst on those tyres, the figures for braking are NOT consistent test for test, where the PS4S is.
All I know is I have done a million miles in 74 cars and in the wet for a UHP tyre the PS4S amazes me time and time again.
and it also wins lowest fuel use and long life, so it's the best dry tyre, the best wet tyre, the best wet track tyre, the longest lasting tyres, the most MpG tyre !! WHY DO PEOPLE BUY ANYTHING ELSE !!!
best road tyre know to man and the one used in many wet track days by users and racers.
what also amazes me is
1: people saying CUPS are safe and offer loads of grip in the wet and
2: P-zero are good !!!
3: Dunlops race maxx work in the wet !
the 3 biggest jokes on tyre talks on forums ;-)
So your Spyder is already 3 or 4 years old and I'm guessing hasn't done that many miles? In my mind that means the tyres are past their best. Following your own logic, why don't you get some PS4S's and sell the Pzero's as part worns. They seem to go well on Ebay! t tyres and yes I have had both sadly, MY 981 Spyder came on them, it spins up in 3rd in a straight line ffs and turn in was on faith alone !.also you need to be carefull what you look for, I see MANY people falling for PS4's that is NOT the sporty tyre it's the PS4S's
I put PS4S's on my 991.1 GTS it's like having a proper sports car, I have been using Michelin for 20+ years PS2's to Pilot super Sports, to PS4S's nothing comes close, not even slighty close.
I have binned 2 new sets of P-zero as I hate them so much and I binned my Dunlops 1/2 worn and my Goodyears, I have had all brands Bridgestone , Good years, Dunlops and nothing comes close to the Sporty Michelin line up in the past 20 years for road use, As for track , EVERY record is on CUPS it's a given.
the PS4S is a UHP tyre so you never see it in tests vs the P-zero
I also think Continental wins are fixed :-) and most sponsors seems to be "Continental" funny that and tests results are so different with the "The conti" it backs up the bulls
t on those tyres, the figures for braking are NOT consistent test for test, where the PS4S is.All I know is I have done a million miles in 74 cars and in the wet for a UHP tyre the PS4S amazes me time and time again.
and it also wins lowest fuel use and long life, so it's the best dry tyre, the best wet tyre, the best wet track tyre, the longest lasting tyres, the most MpG tyre !! WHY DO PEOPLE BUY ANYTHING ELSE !!!
best road tyre know to man and the one used in many wet track days by users and racers.
what also amazes me is
1: people saying CUPS are safe and offer loads of grip in the wet and
2: P-zero are good !!!
3: Dunlops race maxx work in the wet !
the 3 biggest jokes on tyre talks on forums ;-)
Coincidentally, my 981 Boxster S came on the 20" Bridgestone S001's from new and they never really inspired confidence in the wet. Even with the optional diff, they would also let very abruptly, had a tough ride (even with the optional electronic dampers) and had too little traction in the wet!
And no I'm not comparing PS4's - I did mean PS4S's - but perhaps I miss-specified that when talking about the availability of new ones. But that also makes me wonder if the PS4's are the real competitors to the PZero and it's actually the Corsa's that the PS4S should be compared with?
The Contis - certainly in "6" spec are quite impressive in the dry, possibly one of the stickiest feeling tyres I've used this side of an MPS Cup - but they were fitted to an RS5 - so their wet weather limitations were less apparent with the phenomenal traction. They did aquaplane more than they should have done in such a heavy car, though, but that could have been the huge front 275 section tyre size ....
I'll agree with you on the Cups - I had brand new ones put on my GT3 and I dreaded it every time I got caught out in the rain. And I've never liked the Dunlops in anything but a race tyre - but I can't comment on their wet weather performance.
On why do people buy other tyres. Simple - economics.Michelin are always the most expensive and I've heard even Porsche owners wanting to save 10% or £100 on a set of 4 tyres, and so dropping down from the Michelin's to the Goodyear. I gather some people even buy Nankangs for gods sake!
All I know is that the PZeros are nowhere near as bad as I've led to believe (or is spouted on here). My car is a weekend toy, so the tyre pressures are always perfect, the geometry recently reset (with a tad more negative front camber) and the Pirellis are virtually brand new. Maybe I'm just seeing the optimal scenario at present and this will change, but for now I can't dislike them, let alone hate them.
MadMark911 said:
So your Spyder is already 3 or 4 years old and I'm guessing hasn't done that many miles? In my mind that means the tyres are past their best. Following your own logic, why don't you get some PS4S's and sell the Pzero's as part worns. They seem to go well on Ebay!
Coincidentally, my 981 Boxster S came on the 20" Bridgestone S001's from new and they never really inspired confidence in the wet. Even with the optional diff, they would also let very abruptly, had a tough ride (even with the optional electronic dampers) and had too little traction in the wet!
And no I'm not comparing PS4's - I did mean PS4S's - but perhaps I miss-specified that when talking about the availability of new ones. But that also makes me wonder if the PS4's are the real competitors to the PZero and it's actually the Corsa's that the PS4S should be compared with?
The Contis - certainly in "6" spec are quite impressive in the dry, possibly one of the stickiest feeling tyres I've used this side of an MPS Cup - but they were fitted to an RS5 - so their wet weather limitations were less apparent with the phenomenal traction. They did aquaplane more than they should have done in such a heavy car, though, but that could have been the huge front 275 section tyre size ....
I'll agree with you on the Cups - I had brand new ones put on my GT3 and I dreaded it every time I got caught out in the rain. And I've never liked the Dunlops in anything but a race tyre - but I can't comment on their wet weather performance.
On why do people buy other tyres. Simple - economics.Michelin are always the most expensive and I've heard even Porsche owners wanting to save 10% or £100 on a set of 4 tyres, and so dropping down from the Michelin's to the Goodyear. I gather some people even buy Nankangs for gods sake!
All I know is that the PZeros are nowhere near as bad as I've led to believe (or is spouted on here). My car is a weekend toy, so the tyre pressures are always perfect, the geometry recently reset (with a tad more negative front camber) and the Pirellis are virtually brand new. Maybe I'm just seeing the optimal scenario at present and this will change, but for now I can't dislike them, let alone hate them.
My 981 Spyder'd long gone, just saying it had the N1 and not the N0's and they were still dire tyres imo.Coincidentally, my 981 Boxster S came on the 20" Bridgestone S001's from new and they never really inspired confidence in the wet. Even with the optional diff, they would also let very abruptly, had a tough ride (even with the optional electronic dampers) and had too little traction in the wet!
And no I'm not comparing PS4's - I did mean PS4S's - but perhaps I miss-specified that when talking about the availability of new ones. But that also makes me wonder if the PS4's are the real competitors to the PZero and it's actually the Corsa's that the PS4S should be compared with?
The Contis - certainly in "6" spec are quite impressive in the dry, possibly one of the stickiest feeling tyres I've used this side of an MPS Cup - but they were fitted to an RS5 - so their wet weather limitations were less apparent with the phenomenal traction. They did aquaplane more than they should have done in such a heavy car, though, but that could have been the huge front 275 section tyre size ....
I'll agree with you on the Cups - I had brand new ones put on my GT3 and I dreaded it every time I got caught out in the rain. And I've never liked the Dunlops in anything but a race tyre - but I can't comment on their wet weather performance.
On why do people buy other tyres. Simple - economics.Michelin are always the most expensive and I've heard even Porsche owners wanting to save 10% or £100 on a set of 4 tyres, and so dropping down from the Michelin's to the Goodyear. I gather some people even buy Nankangs for gods sake!
All I know is that the PZeros are nowhere near as bad as I've led to believe (or is spouted on here). My car is a weekend toy, so the tyre pressures are always perfect, the geometry recently reset (with a tad more negative front camber) and the Pirellis are virtually brand new. Maybe I'm just seeing the optimal scenario at present and this will change, but for now I can't dislike them, let alone hate them.
I own 5 cars all have Michelin, screw selling 2nd hand P-zero on ebay, it's not worth the hassle and would fetch £100, rather bin them, even my tyre fitter said, we will drill them as no one wants this s
t lol I asked as I said they could sell them as they are brand new, but he drilled them !!!but yes you are right people will buy a £150k car and not want good tyres, it's odd.
PS4S will pay you back anyway they last 3 times longer I find.
Thanks to this thread I've just checked Black Circles, who I believe are owned by Michelin, and they're doing 15% off Michelin tyres today so I'm going to try a set of N rated MPS4S on my CGTS to also see what's the fuss is about. At an effective price of less than £750 for all four fitted it was too good to miss as my OPC quoted approximately £400 more. Will be selling the Goodyears on eBay as they've still got 5/6 mm of tread left on them.
mactrack said:
Thanks to this thread I've just checked Black Circles, who I believe are owned by Michelin, and they're doing 15% off Michelin tyres today so I'm going to try a set of N rated MPS4S on my CGTS to also see what's the fuss is about. At an effective price of less than £750 for all four fitted it was too good to miss as my OPC quoted approximately £400 more. Will be selling the Goodyears on eBay as they've still got 5/6 mm of tread left on them.
Nice! Please do report back .... Taffy66 said:
I've got some Michelin MP4Ss Ferrari K1 being fitted to my 458 end of this week...Looking forward to see what all the fuss is about..
they take more miles to run in than most say 200, but you will turn in alike a******* and with that 458 fast rack it will make all other cars feel very slow on turn in.just do 200 miles before reporting back, as they do seem greasy at first but you will still notice the edge turn in performance.
they last 20k miles but the turn in fades off a bit after say 6 or 7k but not to a point they are bad. Just new ones feel amazing on turn in.
Porsche911R said:
My 981 Spyder'd long gone, just saying it had the N1 and not the N0's and they were still dire tyres imo.
I own 5 cars all have Michelin, screw selling 2nd hand P-zero on ebay, it's not worth the hassle and would fetch £100, rather bin them, even my tyre fitter said, we will drill them as no one wants this st lol I asked as I said they could sell them as they are brand new, but he drilled them !!!
but yes you are right people will buy a £150k car and not want good tyres, it's odd.
PS4S will pay you back anyway they last 3 times longer I find.
Interesting! Your tyre fitter is either nuts or has just made a tidy profit when you weren't looking. I own 5 cars all have Michelin, screw selling 2nd hand P-zero on ebay, it's not worth the hassle and would fetch £100, rather bin them, even my tyre fitter said, we will drill them as no one wants this s
t lol I asked as I said they could sell them as they are brand new, but he drilled them !!!but yes you are right people will buy a £150k car and not want good tyres, it's odd.
PS4S will pay you back anyway they last 3 times longer I find.
Conversely one of my mates got £260 for selling his old set on eBay. Buyer collected a week later (apparently a lovely Porsche owning MILF), no hassle, she only wanted to check for puncture repairs. He gave the money to his favourite charity ....
130R said:
he Pirellis are good in hot, dry weather. However PS4S are just a better tyre, especially in typical UK mixed conditions (the tyre label ratings are pretty meaningless). You don't really see anyone with PS4S fitted saying they can't wait to swap them back for Pirellis.
Fair point as I don't think I've driven them in anything less than about 15 degrees, wet or dry. Hmmm. 
MadMark911 said:
Interesting! Your tyre fitter is either nuts or has just made a tidy profit when you weren't looking.
Conversely one of my mates got £260 for selling his old set on eBay. Buyer collected a week later (apparently a lovely Porsche owning MILF), no hassle, she only wanted to check for puncture repairs. He gave the money to his favourite charity ....
maybe, but the sort of person buying crap 2nd hand tyres I would not really want at my house. He got lucky :-)Conversely one of my mates got £260 for selling his old set on eBay. Buyer collected a week later (apparently a lovely Porsche owning MILF), no hassle, she only wanted to check for puncture repairs. He gave the money to his favourite charity ....
I did think there is no way he will drill a new set of P-zero's !!! point is I would rather bin them and buy PS4S's at any cost.
Porsche911R said:
maybe, but the sort of person buying crap 2nd hand tyres I would not really want at my house. He got lucky :-)
I did think there is no way he will drill a new set of P-zero's !!! point is I would rather bin them and buy PS4S's at any cost.
And that's when you know that you have more money than sense ..... I did think there is no way he will drill a new set of P-zero's !!! point is I would rather bin them and buy PS4S's at any cost.
MadMark911 said:
And that's when you know that you have more money than sense .....
No that's when you realise life's to short to drive about on st tyres ;-)I daily all my cars, my mates say why don't you buy a Van for work !! why the *** do I want to drive a van or a s
tter.I drive the cars I love with the best tyres available, always have always will.
Petrol for blood
More money than sense is buying a car on a PCP ;-)
IREvans said:
I’m intrigued what improvement you hope find by fitting a non standard tyre in a wider size onto a 991.2...?
To try and get better front end grip as I'm not a fan of the understeer. I have seen you can get 265/35/20 in the PS4S NO rated (presumably rear size for Cayman/Boxster) and was thinking putting this size on the front of the 991.2 GTS might help dial out a bit of the understeer if keeping the same size rears on. Wondering if doing this would. maintain warranty as while the tyres will be wider they will still be N0 and in theory have better front end grip as these are the same size fronts fitted to the GT3 RS.rianos said:
To try and get better front end grip as I'm not a fan of the understeer. I have seen you can get 265/35/20 in the PS4S NO rated (presumably rear size for Cayman/Boxster) and was thinking putting this size on the front of the 991.2 GTS might help dial out a bit of the understeer if keeping the same size rears on. Wondering if doing this would. maintain warranty as while the tyres will be wider they will still be N0 and in theory have better front end grip as these are the same size fronts fitted to the GT3 RS.
Is the wheel width enough on your GTS to jump up 20mm on the tyre...I agree with you on the understeer but only when driven hard on track..All 911s have in-built understeer to make it safe for normal drivers to cope in extremis..The RS with 265mm F is the only 991 with no understeer but also has correspondingly wider rears..Leaving the rears on 305mm and putting 265mm on front will inbalance the car IMO..Taffy66 said:
Is the wheel width enough on your GTS to jump up 20mm on the tyre...I agree with you on the understeer but only when driven hard on track..All 911s have in-built understeer to make it safe for normal drivers to cope in extremis..The RS with 265mm F is the only 991 with no understeer but also has correspondingly wider rears..Leaving the rears on 305mm and putting 265mm on front will inbalance the car IMO..
Under steer is NOT built in, it’s a 911 design issue with no weight over the front of the car hence trail braking.Buy a BMW M car and you will never see under steer ever again, although you then over steer every where.
265 up front will understeer more as it will raise the front ride height giving more lift ! In the RS you have height adjust so the rake is set to match the 265.
I sold my GTS after less than 2 months, is not a sports car and I did not get on with it even after fitting PS4s tyres. Great engine , the rest of the car is over rated as imo all 911 are, it’s badge buying at its highest order. Mid engine cars drive so much better.
Ok to say 90mph felt a mess above.
Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 22 September 11:38
Porsche911R said:
Under steer is NOT built in, it’s a 911 design issue with no weight over the front of the car hence trail braking.
Buy a BMW M car and you will never see under steer ever again, although you then over steer every where.
265 up front will understeer more as it will raise the front ride height giving more lift ! In the RS you have height adjust so the rake is set to match the 265.
I sold my GTS after less than 2 months, is not a sports car and I did not get on with it even after fitting PS4s tyres. Great engine , the rest of the car is over rated as imo all 911 are, it’s badge buying at its highest order. Mid engine cars drive so much better.
Ok to say 90mph felt a mess above.
M car. Never see understeer again? You are joking? Or you don’t push it. Here’s the sort of understeer a quick driver gets in a M car.Buy a BMW M car and you will never see under steer ever again, although you then over steer every where.
265 up front will understeer more as it will raise the front ride height giving more lift ! In the RS you have height adjust so the rake is set to match the 265.
I sold my GTS after less than 2 months, is not a sports car and I did not get on with it even after fitting PS4s tyres. Great engine , the rest of the car is over rated as imo all 911 are, it’s badge buying at its highest order. Mid engine cars drive so much better.
Ok to say 90mph felt a mess above.
Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 22 September 11:38
https://performancedrive.com.au/bmw-m2-competition...
PS But I agree re the oversteer ...
Discombobulate said:
M car. Never see understeer again? You are joking? Or you don’t push it. Here’s the sort of understeer a quick driver gets in a M car.
https://performancedrive.com.au/bmw-m2-competition...
PS But I agree re the oversteer ...
He does tend to over drive the cars he tests, and you cannot defy physics when you have all that weight up front on turn in.https://performancedrive.com.au/bmw-m2-competition...
PS But I agree re the oversteer ...
But On a round about if you drive round a big one, porkers understeer 1st and M cars won't in general, the rear goes first.
My rears will loose grip way before the front end does in my M car, I have had 8 porkers and they will all just understeer in that test.
You can use techniques to get round faster ofcourse.
Porsche911R said:
Taffy66 said:
Is the wheel width enough on your GTS to jump up 20mm on the tyre...I agree with you on the understeer but only when driven hard on track..All 911s have in-built understeer to make it safe for normal drivers to cope in extremis..The RS with 265mm F is the only 991 with no understeer but also has correspondingly wider rears..Leaving the rears on 305mm and putting 265mm on front will inbalance the car IMO..
Under steer is NOT built in, it’s a 911 design issue with no weight over the front of the car hence trail braking.Buy a BMW M car and you will never see under steer ever again, although you then over steer every where.
265 up front will understeer more as it will raise the front ride height giving more lift ! In the RS you have height adjust so the rake is set to match the 265.
I sold my GTS after less than 2 months, is not a sports car and I did not get on with it even after fitting PS4s tyres. Great engine , the rest of the car is over rated as imo all 911 are, it’s badge buying at its highest order. Mid engine cars drive so much better.
Ok to say 90mph felt a mess above.
Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 22 September 11:38
Porsche911R said:
Under steer is NOT built in, it’s a 911 design issue with no weight over the front of the car hence trail braking.
every decent racing driver in a mid engine car will be trailbraking so that's not just used to overcome the '911 design issue'.At risk of stating the obvious, there are different states of understeer - if you only know how to turn in off the pedals or on throttle then yes a 911 will (obviously) understeer, particularly compared to a front engine car. One is expected to know how to drive to overcome that..... A rear engine car at it's limits however will ultimately tend to oversteer due to amount of weight hanging off the rear axle and the road going cars are going to be setup to minimise that. There's a good reason why the front and rear tyre sizes are as different as they are after all.
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