PCCB out braked the steels last night on 5th gear.
Discussion
LennyM1984 said:
I get that the PCCBs are bigger and 6 pot but doesn't the basic conclusion stack up? ie. On a like for like basis (same sized discs, same "strength" calipers) would the carbon-ceramic discs offer no benefit? This is a genuine question and not a smart arse one before you all jump on me.
Tyre grip is the limiting factor in outright braking performance, and both steels and PCCBs will overpower the tyres. In a single stop there would be no difference in a like-for-like test.Like-for-like, PCCB discs are 50% lighter so there are handling/steering advantages due to the lower unsprung weight. Whether that's noticeable on a trip to Tesco and back is debatable but on a race track you'd notice it
As for heat dissipation, the PCCBs would perform better the more back-to-back-stops you do, but who does non-stop 0-100-0-100-0 etc runs? On a track the discs would cool enough between applications and on the road they'd never get hot enough for it to be an issue.
LennyM1984 said:
What is the reason for most people preferring steel brakes (apart from the obvious cost one)?
Initial cost, replacement cost of discs and pads plus personal preference for pedal feel and travel I suspect.Slippydiff said:
poppopbangbang said:
Porsche911R said:
Higher up the racing tree they do use carbon disks.
They are completely different to the carbon ceramics found on road cars though. A modern carbon/carbon brake package can't really be compared to what is used for a road application as they are leagues apart in weight, performance and technology and have more in common with what is on commercial airliners than road cars.I am the biggest poster saying road cars make bad track cars and visa versa.
I'll take heated seats and LED lights and lift thanks.
Twinfan said:
Indeed. Comparing a GT car on steels vs PCCBs would be much more informative, although even then:
Steel: 380mm front and rear
PCCB: 410mm at front and 390mm at rear
So PCCBs always have a size advantage within the same model.
But they have to given carbon ceramic has much less heat capacity per unit mass than iron... Porsche once upon a time had ceramics about the same size as the steels and that didn't end too well....Steel: 380mm front and rear
PCCB: 410mm at front and 390mm at rear
So PCCBs always have a size advantage within the same model.
On a gt car where iirc the calipers are the same ie pad clamping force/area are equal, the difference in performance isn't going to be there. In any case even if tyre grip wasn't the limiting factor, one has a far greater choice of pads for iron brakes if one really wanted to try to add more braking capability.
Twinfan said:
Initial cost, replacement cost of discs and pads plus personal preference for pedal feel and travel I suspect.
In my experience PCCBs have been cost neutral as no biennial replacement of steels due to “corrosion of inner surfaces sir”That was the main reason for me speccing them. Not yet had to replace pads or discs yet so cannot comment on that point.
However other advantages for me are improved feel and travel, no brake dust , and they fill out the 20 in wheels somewhat more convincingly
Twinfan said:
TimoMak said:
The point made was nothing about the size of brakes (some people on here appear obsessed with size for some reason...), but the reduction in their effectiveness over time and use over several runs of heavy braking due to fade.
But do you not think that heat dissipation, and therefore fade resistance, is related to brake disc and caliper size in some way?JulierPass said:
Porsche911R said:
Slippydiff said:
And ?
95% people here say zero advantage because AP from Porsche does not talk about them when he does his cars chats.Even the racers here say no such advantage, and thus every one falls in line with miss info.
I have always said their was an advantage and not just for repeated stops.
2 cars tested results are black and white to see.
16 foot after 1 stop, 100 feet after 10 stops.
Could it be cost considerations for the Cup and rules for the R ( GT3 rules)
As an aside a Ferrari Challenge car runs ceramics while the GT3 car runs steels
Edited for forgotten word
Edited by MDL111 on Friday 15th November 17:43
having read some scare stories about the accidental ease with which one can write off a pccb disc, if one is on a track day in a PCCB equipped car and has an excursion into the gravel (which then finds its way in between the disc and pad surfaces) is that the end of the fun for the day unless eg all wheels removed and discs and calipers/pads thoroughly cleaned?
MDL111 said:
Doesn’t the RSR come with ceramics?
Could it be cost considerations for the Cup and rules for the R ( GT3 rules)
As an aside a Ferrari Challenge car runs ceramics while the GT3 car runs steels
Nope the rsr runs iron brakes. No proper racing car competing in any series outside of challenge uses ceramics.Could it be cost considerations for the Cup and rules for the R ( GT3 rules)
As an aside a Ferrari Challenge car runs ceramics while the GT3 car runs steels
Supercup long ago ran ceramics iirc but the costs were astronomical and basically no one thought it was a good idea to continue running them.
isaldiri said:
MDL111 said:
Doesn’t the RSR come with ceramics?
Could it be cost considerations for the Cup and rules for the R ( GT3 rules)
As an aside a Ferrari Challenge car runs ceramics while the GT3 car runs steels
Nope the rsr runs iron brakes. No proper racing car competing in any series outside of challenge uses ceramics.Could it be cost considerations for the Cup and rules for the R ( GT3 rules)
As an aside a Ferrari Challenge car runs ceramics while the GT3 car runs steels
Supercup long ago ran ceramics iirc but the costs were astronomical and basically no one thought it was a good idea to continue running them.
I’d obviously prefer steels for exactly that reason
Twinfan said:
TimoMak said:
The point made was nothing about the size of brakes (some people on here appear obsessed with size for some reason...), but the reduction in their effectiveness over time and use over several runs of heavy braking due to fade.
But do you not think that heat dissipation, and therefore fade resistance, is related to brake disc and caliper size in some way?cayman-black said:
Funny all those saying they prefer steels, yet the GT cars without PCCB,s are cheaper and hang around longer, strange.
that's mainly a UK thing only. in Germany where the gt cars are generally used on track a hell of a lot more, steel brakes are very much the norm there irrespective of the so called performance advantage claimed by some....People can get overly hung up with their choice of brake material anyway imo. Both work and if you strongly prefer one good for you but there's no need to constantly trumpet it as the best thing ever (usually on their car which is also the best car ever....)
MDL111 said:
isaldiri said:
MDL111 said:
Doesn’t the RSR come with ceramics?
Could it be cost considerations for the Cup and rules for the R ( GT3 rules)
As an aside a Ferrari Challenge car runs ceramics while the GT3 car runs steels
Nope the rsr runs iron brakes. No proper racing car competing in any series outside of challenge uses ceramics.Could it be cost considerations for the Cup and rules for the R ( GT3 rules)
As an aside a Ferrari Challenge car runs ceramics while the GT3 car runs steels
Supercup long ago ran ceramics iirc but the costs were astronomical and basically no one thought it was a good idea to continue running them.
I’d obviously prefer steels for exactly that reason
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