GT3 Touring at OPC Silverstone

[Yellow491]

hunter 66 said:

Mans Pork

Your wrong man,thats a mans mans car,not for faint hearted.

[TDT]

PMacanGTS said:

Back on topic, here's some B&W shots of the new motor. I pick it up on Tuesday.

Congrats... that does look nice.

[964Cup]

So what do we think a fair price would be for the private sale black Touring? (https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-991/porsche-911-991-gt3-touring-4-0/9672851)

I've been watching it for a good while. I will say I'm tempted (even though two of my old bangers are now working or close to it), but I just don't see these cars at this value, especially when well-specced regular GT3s are £40k less. I'm not expecting to make money, but I'd prefer not to utterly lose my shirt.

Is £150k the magic number? - a £20k premium on the regular car seems vaguely sensible given the (accidental) rarity of the Touring. Even at that price there's a lot of choice for the money in other marques, and in other Porsche models.

It feels a bit like 964RS values. They're all listed at £170k+, but no-one actually pays that (I certainly didn't) and I don't think they're worth it either. I think they're also a £150k car, especially sold privately.

[RSVP911]

964Cup said:

So what do we think a fair price would be for the private sale black Touring? (https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-991/porsche-911-991-gt3-touring-4-0/9672851)

I've been watching it for a good while. I will say I'm tempted (even though two of my old bangers are now working or close to it), but I just don't see these cars at this value, especially when well-specced regular GT3s are £40k less. I'm not expecting to make money, but I'd prefer not to utterly lose my shirt.

Is £150k the magic number? - a £20k premium on the regular car seems vaguely sensible given the (accidental) rarity of the Touring. Even at that price there's a lot of choice for the money in other marques, and in other Porsche models.

It feels a bit like 964RS values. They're all listed at £170k+, but no-one actually pays that (I certainly didn't) and I don't think they're worth it either. I think they're also a £150k car, especially sold privately.

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

Re 964 RS - I’m really sorry; but condition and provenance is really important on this type of car : matching numbers, original paint, original panels , paint to sample, and unmolested, totally original, low mileage, few owners , no “stories” all help to determine the price of these cars; show me a car at £k150 with all of these things and I’ll buy it. Show me a car without and it will be worth much, much less. I know of lots of cars that match the description above that have sold between £k175 - £k 240 in the last 6 months.

Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 20:35

[Twinfan]

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

It's not just the rarity, it's what it offers - it's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Something you can't say about an ostentatious winged GT3s, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, McLarens etc.

There's no other car like it really, is there?

[av185]

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

Entirely agree Richard a GT3 definitely needs a wing imo and the above disparity in pricing is further evidence that an unpopular car when new does not necessarily equate to an unpopular car used.

[964Cup]

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

Re 964 RS - I’m really sorry; but condition and provenance is really important on this type of car : matching numbers, original paint, original panels , paint to sample, and unmolested, totally original, low mileage, few owners , no “stories” all help to determine the price of these cars; show me a car at £k150 with all of these things and I’ll buy it. Show me a car without and it will be worth much, much less. I know of lots of cars that match the description above that have sold between £k175 - £k 240 in the last 6 months.

Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 20:35

Sure, condition obviously matters, but I'm very surprised to hear that anything has moved above £170k in the last year. I watched prices for about six months before I bought mine, and saw a lot of cars not selling. I have to say I'm really quite suspicious of anything in the RS world that looks like a garage queen - I was there when they were just secondhand cars (hell, back in the day I raced, crashed and heavily modified a 964 Cup car, and had a 993RS that I bought for £40k and sold for £26k). I also turned down Chiswick's black RHD RS at £43k (in about '98 from memory). No-one then thought they were going to be worth money, and they were used hard. A tiny number will have been put into obsessive collections, but most will have been driven.

In fact, I bought mine because it had been driven (and therefore looked after). It's a mechanically very strong, cosmetically well used, matching numbers and known history C00 car, and I'm looking forward to driving it properly next year. As a consequence I paid sufficiently little for it that I think I'll be able to use it then fully restore it when I've had my fun and still come out at least breaking even. I'd hate to own something I couldn't use in the manner for which it was originally conceived.

[RSVP911]

Twinfan said:

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

It's not just the rarity, it's what it offers - it's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Something you can't say about an ostentatious winged GT3s, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, McLarens etc.

There's no other car like it really, is there?

Agree with this - but does this really mean it’s virtually a third more expensive than an identical winged version ?

[RSVP911]

964Cup said:

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

Re 964 RS - I’m really sorry; but condition and provenance is really important on this type of car : matching numbers, original paint, original panels , paint to sample, and unmolested, totally original, low mileage, few owners , no “stories” all help to determine the price of these cars; show me a car at £k150 with all of these things and I’ll buy it. Show me a car without and it will be worth much, much less. I know of lots of cars that match the description above that have sold between £k175 - £k 240 in the last 6 months.

Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 20:35

Sure, condition obviously matters, but I'm very surprised to hear that anything has moved above £170k in the last year. I watched prices for about six months before I bought mine, and saw a lot of cars not selling. I have to say I'm really quite suspicious of anything in the RS world that looks like a garage queen - I was there when they were just secondhand cars (hell, back in the day I raced, crashed and heavily modified a 964 Cup car, and had a 993RS that I bought for £40k and sold for £26k). I also turned down Chiswick's black RHD RS at £43k (in about '98 from memory). No-one then thought they were going to be worth money, and they were used hard. A tiny number will have been put into obsessive collections, but most will have been driven.

In fact, I bought mine because it had been driven (and therefore looked after). It's a mechanically very strong, cosmetically well used, matching numbers and known history C00 car, and I'm looking forward to driving it properly next year. As a consequence I paid sufficiently little for it that I think I'll be able to use it then fully restore it when I've had my fun and still come out at least breaking even. I'd hate to own something I couldn't use in the manner for which it was originally conceived.

When I was looking the following cars sold

Rubystone at Paragon was up for £k179

GR at Nine Excellence up for £k159 - can’t remember exact amount

Rubystone at RMS auction sold £k 240 with fees

Black at Sports Purpose - again over £k170

GR at JZM was up for £k179

TJS must have sold 3 or 4 including mine all for strong money

I don’t know actual sold prices (except for the RMS car) but lots of cars selling and based on conversations that I had, probably not for loads less than advertised.

So they are selling in decent numbers

(there was a car at Redline that had come back from Japan at £k159 that didn’t sell - this wasn’t matching numbers and the mileage was very, shall we say ... low. )

Absolutely agree with the sentiment of using rather than collecting - I can’t see how anyone can own one of these and not drive it all the time !!


Re your comment on them “living a life” - that’s why original panels and paint are important if you want an undamaged unmolested car - this may not be important as if repaired well it makes no difference to driving but it does, rightly or wrongly, affect values in this market

Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 22:28

[Stedman]

PMacanGTS said:

Back on topic, here's some B&W shots of the new motor. I pick it up on Tuesday.

Holy mackerel. Congratulations

[Porsche911R]

Stedman said:

Holy mackerel. Congratulations

It’s looks like a base 991 , what’s holy mackerel about it ?

I am so so lost on people falling over backwards on these when only a hand full of people ordered them, it’s bullst to say it looks great when it looks like a base model 911.

Ie the wolf in sheep’s clothing which apeeled to 40 odd people.
That was the point, it did NOT look special....

I am not slaging the car, it was a Choice at the same price and who is any one to say what others buy, but to say it looks great over a base model 911 is pure arse licking crap.

My GTS looked better if anything.

IMHO........

[Cheib]

RSVP911 said:

Twinfan said:

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

It's not just the rarity, it's what it offers - it's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Something you can't say about an ostentatious winged GT3s, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, McLarens etc.

There's no other car like it really, is there?

Agree with this - but does this really mean it’s virtually a third more expensive than an identical winged version ?

No...but in a three to six month period when most car prices are off at least 10 pct these have been rock solid. Seems to me that they will continue to be a low cost ownership proposition.

[Twinfan]

Porsche911R said:

It’s looks like a base 991 , what’s holy mackerel about it ?

I am so so lost on people falling over backwards on these when only a hand full of people ordered them, it’s bullst to say it looks great when it looks like a base model 911.

Ie the wolf in sheep’s clothing which apeeled to 40 odd people.
That was the point, it did NOT look special....

I am not slaging the car, it was a Choice at the same price and who is any one to say what others buy, but to say it looks great over a base model 911 is pure arse licking crap.

My GTS looked better if anything.

IMHO........

It's all in the detail. It has sharper lines due to the GT bumpers, 918 buckets, GT wheels etc. It's subtle but noticeable.

As for whether it's worth a third more than a winged car, it would be to me if I was in the market. YMMV and that of course is fine, I just don't get why folk like yourself are moaning about it who have no interest in ever buying one!

[Yellow491]

964Cup said:

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

Re 964 RS - I’m really sorry; but condition and provenance is really important on this type of car : matching numbers, original paint, original panels , paint to sample, and unmolested, totally original, low mileage, few owners , no “stories” all help to determine the price of these cars; show me a car at £k150 with all of these things and I’ll buy it. Show me a car without and it will be worth much, much less. I know of lots of cars that match the description above that have sold between £k175 - £k 240 in the last 6 months.

Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 20:35

Sure, condition obviously matters, but I'm very surprised to hear that anything has moved above £170k in the last year. I watched prices for about six months before I bought mine, and saw a lot of cars not selling. I have to say I'm really quite suspicious of anything in the RS world that looks like a garage queen - I was there when they were just secondhand cars (hell, back in the day I raced, crashed and heavily modified a 964 Cup car, and had a 993RS that I bought for £40k and sold for £26k). I also turned down Chiswick's black RHD RS at £43k (in about '98 from memory). No-one then thought they were going to be worth money, and they were used hard. A tiny number will have been put into obsessive collections, but most will have been driven.

In fact, I bought mine because it had been driven (and therefore looked after). It's a mechanically very strong, cosmetically well used, matching numbers and known history C00 car, and I'm looking forward to driving it properly next year. As a consequence I paid sufficiently little for it that I think I'll be able to use it then fully restore it when I've had my fun and still come out at least breaking even. I'd hate to own something I couldn't use in the manner for which it was originally conceived.

Hi Ben,name from the past,i remember a red flag at oulton in our race,only to find your car spectacularly parked at the hairpin,front wheel still spinning,hope you are well

I like the gt3 touring with no ass licking or rimming R,something about a understated car on the road.

[GT4P]

Absolutely love the touring and it would be my kind of car if I could afford one but it's a shame it doesn't have the look of a 997sc , nice ducktail , Fuchs etc

[seawise]

RSVP911 said:

I have no idea on the 911 Touring - as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered.

Re 964 RS - I know of lots of cars that match the description above that have sold between £k175 - £k 240 in the last 6 months.

Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 20:35

actually the manual 991.2 GT3 had over double the production time than the Touring option, as it was available and strongly taken up for the first production run, whereas as you state the Touring was only available for shorter the 2nd run. agree that the take up in the UK was low, interestingly it was much more popular in the USA market.

re 964 RS - you are correct, lots of cars have sold for strong money in the past 6 months. for instance Paragon's rubystone car went to a USA buyer at the full price, touch below 180k. given the cars ability now to be exported to the USA (over 25 years old) and the weak GBP a fair number of cars are going trans atlantic - i am half in the market looking for a matching numbers, very clean car with proper provenance and it's slim pickings.

i think a GT3 Touring and 964 Carrera RS would make a perfect Pork stable, for me at least.

[seawise]

Porsche911R said:

It’s looks like a base 991 , what’s holy mackerel about it ?

I am so so lost on people falling over backwards on these when only a hand full of people ordered them, it’s bullst to say it looks great when it looks like a base model 911.

Ie the wolf in sheep’s clothing which apeeled to 40 odd people.
That was the point, it did NOT look special....

I am not slaging the car, it was a Choice at the same price and who is any one to say what others buy, but to say it looks great over a base model 911 is pure arse licking crap.

My GTS looked better if anything.

IMHO........

'looks like a base 911....' - err no it does not, expect perhaps to my Micra driving 84 year old mother - it's got the same stance, ride height, wheels, aero as a standard car, except for the lack of a rear wing. as you well know.

'pure arse licking crap' - really ? that it's just objectionable. no need for that on here, bad form.

[northpolar]

If my priorities weren't stuck elsewhere/ (if I had more money!!), the touring would be exactly the model I would choose.

No big deal, some folks just like to sit below the radar more than others.

The thing to me at the moment is that I still feel the overall prices, despite some correction, remain a million miles higher than will be sustainable. I could very well be wrong on this but were I in the position to buy into this market at the moment, it would be eyes wide open accepting that I was going to have a complete blast in a fantastic car, life is short and who knows what comes next - with a high probability that the experience may well hit the piggy bank hard.

Eyes wide open though, (and fully accepting folks' opinions that GT3's without wings just ain't right!!) I still think the touring is ace and an ideal keeper making any depreciation concerns completely academic (man logic working overtime here!!). PMacanGTS - hope you have a complete blast in your new touring and look forward to you renaming yourself on the forum!!

Peter

[Twinfan]

PMacanGTS said:

I suspect deep down, you're like the kid in the school yard who pulls the hair and mocks the girl he fancies the most. Admit it, you have a crush on the Touring and have to punish it for making you get that warm feeling in the pit of your stomach.

I'm not so sure about that. I think he thought he was ordering the 'best' version of the GT3 in a manual Clubsport and is annoyed that something he had the option to but didn't spec, because he doesn't like it, is the rarest and has the highest value. Why not just be happy with what you like and own?

[av185]

For those not willing to part with what they consider is stupid money ££ for a GT3 Touring, how about saving £100k and look at a basic 911 Touring.

Ok, it is certainly no GT3 and clearly was never meant to be, but as a package it takes some beating at the money, as a road car it is as rapid as GT4 but way more usable and 3 times as rare so exclusive as well. Guaranteed future classic being the last of the narrow bodied Carreras with a classic 911 feel in this world of increasingly digitised 911s. (992)

Sold mine late summer and am actually missing it quite alot.