GT3 Touring at OPC Silverstone

GT3 Touring at OPC Silverstone

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964Cup

1,407 posts

236 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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I'm not sure I really believe in "future classics" at all. Not just because the ICE is on the way out, but also because I think cars as a desirable item are similarly outdated. I suspect my generation - Gen X - will be the last to keep plugging away at the nostalgic car thing, and like most people we'll be nostalgic for the cars of our youth (so late 80s, early 90s stuff) and the cars that were already seen as classics in our youth (so 50s and 60s kit).

I'm not sure I want a fast modern ICE car now - I keep dallying with one last gasp, and then actually drive in Britain and remember why I stopped caring - but I really can't imagine wanting, say, a GT3 Touring in 20 years' time when (presumably) a) BEVs will have advanced to the point that the GT3 is by contrast both comically slow and relatively short-ranged and b) driving is likely to be even more tightly regulated, if not largely automated.

I think we have 5 more years of ICE cars having any relevance at all (after all, we only have 10 years left of new ICE sales). I expect I'll sell both my 964s in that time. I'll keep the 356, but probably convert it to a BEV. If the glass battery thing is real (https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/environment/a-glass-battery-that-keeps-getting-better) then BEVs with 600+ mile range and sportscar dynamics suddenly look credible, and the last barriers to adoption will fall.

I don't think the usual "people kept on riding horses as a hobby after the car replaced the carriage" thing will apply. ICE cars have been effectively stigmatised to a point where they will be socially unacceptable - think bear-baiting, not horse-riding - and will be regulated out of use. It might be that the 40-year-rule (or 30 years in France, weirdly) that lets me use my emission-control-free race-engined 356 in a city centre from which my catalysed 964 is banned will persist, but a rorty exhaust will stand out amongst humming EVs, and not- from the point of view of the hordes of frothy-mouthed Gretas - in good way.

It's a shame - I'm at the point where I can afford a collection of half-decent cars, something I'd always wanted. I've even started building that collection. But now I've lost heart again. I still have occasional bursts of enthusiasm - hence my joining this thread since I'd temporarily convinced myself that I'd buy a GT3 Touring at £150k if one were available - but then I reality-check. I think ICE motor-racing and track days will be banned within 5 years (easy target for the Gretas). Holland has already lowered speed limits to 60mph (presumably only to be raised again, if ever, once EVs are the majority). France has a patchwork of emission-control zones that keep tightening their rules. London has the ULEZ expansion. Yes, you can go and live in the bf-middle-of-nowhere and convince yourself that sporty driving is still relevant, but that's tail-wagging-dog stuff. The whole global luxury- and super-car industry relies now on a combination of the US's reluctance to give up on the car as a symbol of wealth and freedom (and half the wealthy car collectors I know in the States use a Tesla as a DD) and on China's nouveaux riches. All this will end, and is of little relevant to Europe anyway.

Dammit, I want to convince myself to go and buy that black GT3 Touring. But I can't help feeling that it will be worth a big fat zero in five years, and that I'll barely drive it in the meantime.

hunter 66

3,888 posts

219 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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Sadly agree , especially for city dwellers , having had a Tesla for 3 years I know it makes sense . But as a last hurrah , the touring is a fantastic car , my last hurrah is my GT3RS as at an age where not to bothered about the big wing anymore ..they will all soon be slow , noisy memories but we enjoy it .

Juno

4,481 posts

248 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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FFS you lot I'm about ready to shoot myself banghead

Yellow491

2,911 posts

118 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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Juno said:
FFS you lot I'm about ready to shoot myself banghead
Dont do it juno,you need to enjoy your car firstsmile

Cheib

23,111 posts

174 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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964Cup I think you’re being a bit too negative on the outlook for ICE cars....the next wave of battery tech which as I understand it is three to five years away is cheaper batteries of similar performance to today’s....it’s a good while before the 500 mile EV will be with us that is affordable. And that last point is the main issue....EV’s are still a very expensive proposition for Mr and Mrs Smith to buy as their family car....only once the purchase price is the same as an ICE car will they really start to make serious inroads and that’s five years away. Most people’s main deciding factor is cost when buying a car !

Also I don’t really care about EV’s being faster....my family and fun cars are both plenty quick enough....I have no need to go anywhere any faster. EV manufacturers rattle on about it but who really needs a family car that can do 0-60 in 3 secs....it’s a marketing ploy and I really don’t think people care that much.

jayxx83

504 posts

195 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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Why do people keep saying cars will be stigmatized as anti social etc.

I see no evidence of this at all apart from the odd eco warrior that rides his kids to school daily.

More of an issue is the earth minerals being raped to make the battery’s and motors. Most of these minerals come from places like Congo etc where civil war is created and babies raped etc so that interested parties can get control over resources.

I think the ICE has a long way to go yet.

Being 35 with a lot of friends with businesses etc. As soon as thing are stable, they buy Porsche’s, Ferrari’s, lambos etc.

The ones with the cash are no different. It’s the lefties who expect all to be given to them in a free state who shout about nothing when the rest of us are working our nuts off earning money, paying tax and enjoying the fruits of our Labour.

pete.g

1,527 posts

205 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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Just enjoy your car.

It's a beautiful thing - subtle when needed, dramatic if required.


Taffy66

5,964 posts

101 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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jayxx83 said:
Why do people keep saying cars will be stigmatized as anti social etc.

I see no evidence of this at all apart from the odd eco warrior that rides his kids to school daily.

More of an issue is the earth minerals being raped to make the battery’s and motors. Most of these minerals come from places like Congo etc where civil war is created and babies raped etc so that interested parties can get control over resources.

I think the ICE has a long way to go yet.

Being 35 with a lot of friends with businesses etc. As soon as thing are stable, they buy Porsche’s, Ferrari’s, lambos etc.

The ones with the cash are no different. It’s the lefties who expect all to be given to them in a free state who shout about nothing when the rest of us are working our nuts off earning money, paying tax and enjoying the fruits of our Labour.
You have wisdom beyond your years.yes

2010spy

1,916 posts

163 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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Wow, we’ve gone from social stigma, war zone corruption, the end of the ICE and total eco warrior submission in this thread. We’ve even had talk of a GT3 Touring hitting the rock bottom price of £150k. That’s what scares me the most....

Taffy66

5,964 posts

101 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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Electric cars like the Taycan will be bought mainly by the well heeled business owners who can use them to reduce their high rate tax liability..I can't see this scenario changing until the National grid and new wave nuclear power plants are operational..Few will buy a pig before they've built the pigsty first..hehe

browngt3

1,409 posts

210 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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It's very easy to get swept along by all the Greta climate propaganda. But I'm afraid to say that's exactly what it is - propoganda.

Anyway,dont want to turn this into a climate change debate so,964Cup, just buy a GT3 Touring and enjoy it. You won't regret it

MDL111

6,895 posts

176 months

Monday 16th December 2019
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RSVP911 said:
964Cup said:
RSVP911 said:
I have no idea on the 911 Touring - in my mind I can’t see any logical reason why they’re worth a penny more than a winged version other than numbers - but what’s hilarious, is there are only so few, as people had 3 choices in the second batch of 991.2 cars ; a PDK GT3 , a manual GT3 , or a Touring. The least popular choice turned our to be the touring; hence its numbers are lower. The manual 991.2 GT3, had exactly the same production time but more were ordered. But there you go, It’s not popular , so it’s rare, so it’s worth “more”, it’s just bizarre. I’m not anti touring btw, they are really lovely, I just can’t see why they’d cost anymore than a winged manual 991.2 GT3.

Re 964 RS - I’m really sorry; but condition and provenance is really important on this type of car : matching numbers, original paint, original panels , paint to sample, and unmolested, totally original, low mileage, few owners , no “stories” all help to determine the price of these cars; show me a car at £k150 with all of these things and I’ll buy it. Show me a car without and it will be worth much, much less. I know of lots of cars that match the description above that have sold between £k175 - £k 240 in the last 6 months.

Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 20:35
Sure, condition obviously matters, but I'm very surprised to hear that anything has moved above £170k in the last year. I watched prices for about six months before I bought mine, and saw a lot of cars not selling. I have to say I'm really quite suspicious of anything in the RS world that looks like a garage queen - I was there when they were just secondhand cars (hell, back in the day I raced, crashed and heavily modified a 964 Cup car, and had a 993RS that I bought for £40k and sold for £26k). I also turned down Chiswick's black RHD RS at £43k (in about '98 from memory). No-one then thought they were going to be worth money, and they were used hard. A tiny number will have been put into obsessive collections, but most will have been driven.

In fact, I bought mine because it had been driven (and therefore looked after). It's a mechanically very strong, cosmetically well used, matching numbers and known history C00 car, and I'm looking forward to driving it properly next year. As a consequence I paid sufficiently little for it that I think I'll be able to use it then fully restore it when I've had my fun and still come out at least breaking even. I'd hate to own something I couldn't use in the manner for which it was originally conceived.
When I was looking the following cars sold

Rubystone at Paragon was up for £k179

GR at Nine Excellence up for £k159 - can’t remember exact amount

Rubystone at RMS auction sold £k 240 with fees

Black at Sports Purpose - again over £k170

GR at JZM was up for £k179

TJS must have sold 3 or 4 including mine all for strong money

I don’t know actual sold prices (except for the RMS car) but lots of cars selling and based on conversations that I had, probably not for loads less than advertised.

So they are selling in decent numbers

(there was a car at Redline that had come back from Japan at £k159 that didn’t sell - this wasn’t matching numbers and the mileage was very, shall we say ... low. )

Absolutely agree with the sentiment of using rather than collecting - I can’t see how anyone can own one of these and not drive it all the time !! smile


Re your comment on them “living a life” - that’s why original panels and paint are important if you want an undamaged unmolested car - this may not be important as if repaired well it makes no difference to driving but it does, rightly or wrongly, affect values in this market



Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 13th December 22:28
It would really hurt to buy a perfect example for a huge premium and then bin it on track

Yellow491

2,911 posts

118 months

Tuesday 17th December 2019
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Mmmm garage queens with super low miles,i know of several that over the years has lost miles somewhere in the atmosphere .Cars with unplugged relays,etc etc.
Who can you really trust today,my mates old 964 now has its original engine ffs.
Original panels,how can any one be sure.

RSVP911

8,192 posts

132 months

Tuesday 17th December 2019
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Yellow491 said:
Mmmm garage queens with super low miles,i know of several that over the years has lost miles somewhere in the atmosphere .Cars with unplugged relays,etc etc.
Who can you really trust today,my mates old 964 now has its original engine ffs.
Original panels,how can any one be sure.
Agree on comment in miles - was very easy to unplug speedo back in the day. I think condition has to be a good indicator of mileage.

Re panels - paint meter shows if paint is original and chassis welds can be checked. Also there are 4 numbered panels to match back to the vin sticker / data base; maybe this can be faked I guess, but if all 3 things are in order, I think you’re pretty safe. Not that it matters in terms of the day to day driving enjoyment smile

964Cup

1,407 posts

236 months

Tuesday 17th December 2019
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MDL111 said:
It would really hurt to buy a perfect example for a huge premium and then bin it on track
Indeed. That's why I bought the cheapest not-bent, not-fake one I could find. Just had the notification for the 964RS track day at Spa next year. I shall be taking mine, and enjoying adding to the stone chips and general wabi-sabi on the way. Not sure I'd take 200ks-worth of perfect original paint through Eau Rouge. Also very very definitely not going anywhere on 28-year-old magnesium alloys, either. Nasty replica 18s I don't mind banging into curbs for me, i'm afraid. The unobtanium wheels can stay in my garage on a shelf, where they belong.

As for the GT3 Touring, I am still sorely tempted. But then I saw that Tom Hartley has an Aeromax for sale. Oops. So much want. If he still has it when I get back from hols, that'll be the end of my GT3 fund. And that's a car I do believe will still have value in the future.

Although the article about Beech Street being closed to all non-EV traffic didn't half feed my fear that our complacency about the government caring whether Mr & Mrs Miggins can afford their family car might be misplaced. Grater Tunberg has a lot of politicians clinging to her youthful skirts.

SRT Hellcat

7,017 posts

216 months

Wednesday 18th December 2019
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Juno said:
FFS you lot I'm about ready to shoot myself banghead
Me too. You are believing all the BS.
I was listening to a podcast with Chris Harris and Matt Farrah.
Take for instance the Daytona 500.
Take the entire CO emissions for that event as an example.
Take the race cars, support vehicles, RV's from spectators. Spectators general vehicles.
The entire CO emission for that event was less than the emissions from one plane flight from London to New York.
It is all a load of bks

browngt3

1,409 posts

210 months

Wednesday 18th December 2019
quotequote all
SRT Hellcat said:
Me too. You are believing all the BS.
I was listening to a podcast with Chris Harris and Matt Farrah.
Take for instance the Daytona 500.
Take the entire CO emissions for that event as an example.
Take the race cars, support vehicles, RV's from spectators. Spectators general vehicles.
The entire CO emission for that event was less than the emissions from one plane flight from London to New York.
It is all a load of bks
Good point. Enjoy those Chris Harris podcasts, some great stories

Juno

4,481 posts

248 months

Wednesday 18th December 2019
quotequote all
SRT Hellcat said:
Juno said:
FFS you lot I'm about ready to shoot myself banghead
Me too. You are believing all the BS.
I was listening to a podcast with Chris Harris and Matt Farrah.
Take for instance the Daytona 500.
Take the entire CO emissions for that event as an example.
Take the race cars, support vehicles, RV's from spectators. Spectators general vehicles.
The entire CO emission for that event was less than the emissions from one plane flight from London to New York.
It is all a load of bks
Now that’s sounding a lot better thumbup

What about the CO2 emissions from all the Cow Farts that went to make the 20 Million Burgers that the Americans ate at the event though yikes

av185

18,433 posts

126 months

Wednesday 18th December 2019
quotequote all
964Cup said:
Grater Tunberg has a lot of politicians clinging to her youthful skirts.
True although she strikes me more like an activist upstart who likes to be seen wearing the trousers, in more ways than one.

pete.g

1,527 posts

205 months

Wednesday 18th December 2019
quotequote all
av185 said:
964Cup said:
Grater Tunberg has a lot of politicians clinging to her youthful skirts.
True although she strikes me more like an activist upstart who likes to be seen wearing the trousers, in more ways than one.
Evening, Donald.