The Porsche GT allocation system...a good video view
Discussion
LordOfTheManor said:
A word to sum up the OPC service you receive when asking for a GT car is
"condescending" meaning - having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority over the customer who's paying for the car
This was exactly the service I received from my two local OPCs, plus a general can't be bothered to sell you a car attitude."condescending" meaning - having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority over the customer who's paying for the car
I was driving a 981 Boxster Black Edition, my first Porsche, and enquired about a 718 Spyder and was more or less laughed at and the salesman couldn't even be bothered to discuss the 4.0 GTS that was on the horizon. When I complained to the franchise about the dealership, the DP was almost as condescending giving me a lesson on spreadsheets and "points" other owners already had from previous sales....he then offered in an off hand manner a test drive of the new 4.0 Boxster when ever that appears, but you'd need to put a deposit down on one of £5k.
So I sold the Boxster, went back to Mercedes and bought a 2015 SLK55 as my roadster, and now I'm waiting for the delivery of my new GR Yaris for the driving excitement. In the process I've saved myself around £40k from the budget I had for the Spyder and I'm happy as Larry.
My daily BMW 530d is due for replacement in 2022, probably for an EV, but there's no chance it will be Taycan. Following my experience with the attitude of Porsche GB and their dealers regarding GT cars I'll never buy another Porsche even if my numbers come up on the lottery at the weekend.
Holgate86 said:
LordOfTheManor said:
A word to sum up the OPC service you receive when asking for a GT car is
"condescending" meaning - having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority over the customer who's paying for the car
This was exactly the service I received from my two local OPCs, plus a general can't be bothered to sell you a car attitude."condescending" meaning - having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority over the customer who's paying for the car
I was driving a 981 Boxster Black Edition, my first Porsche, and enquired about a 718 Spyder and was more or less laughed at and the salesman couldn't even be bothered to discuss the 4.0 GTS that was on the horizon. When I complained to the franchise about the dealership, the DP was almost as condescending giving me a lesson on spreadsheets and "points" other owners already had from previous sales....he then offered in an off hand manner a test drive of the new 4.0 Boxster when ever that appears, but you'd need to put a deposit down on one of £5k.
The EV landscape will shake things up no end.
gd said:
There are very few brands that maintain an excess of demand indefinitely, and whilst this is the case for Porsche now, there may come a time that Porsche and OPCs regret this. Once the flippers are gone as the demand has evaporated, and the good customers went before them as they had options... they will be left with a lot less revenue. It might be a bit old school, but loyalty that can endure over time is currently very unfashionable.
Not entirely convinced.This isn't a boutique operation that lives and dies on the loyalty of customers in the old school sense. Porsche now sells over 200,000 units a year and probably wants that number to increase further in the EV era.
Cars aren't phones and the buying process isn't the same (yet), but as ever Apple is a useful yardstick. What sort of 'loyalty' is it that keeps Apple's customers coming back? Not the sort you're referring to, I don't think.
The old model of dealers and personal relationships is already dying out. As EVs take over, it will only become less relevant. People will be much more likely to just order a car online like they do a phone. Moreover, EVs tend to need much less aftercare / servicing than combustion cars, which will mean even less opportunity for the old style of dealer relationship to be be fostered or even start.
When the sort of old school relationship and loyalty with regard to premium car dealers and brands really mattered, the volumes were tiny compared to today. Don't think there are nearly enough of that kind of customer to really be relevant any longer. The vast majority of customers won't be anything like that.
Tesla is already doing the online sales thing at scale and probably shows the way the industry is going. Basically, it looks like the future is increasingly people buying Porsches online in fairly big numbers via some kind of monthly payment and it will be all about perceptions of the product and branding and image, part of which will be informed by the actual character and quality of the product, but not all. Just like an iPhone. But nobody buys an iPhone because of loyalty to their local Apple store, that's my point.
Certainly this model of buying - plus the idea of fractional ownership / paying for access to cars on demand - is the way the industry sees things going. So, if your notion of enduring old school loyalty isn't at the heart of how the likes of Tesla and Apple shift product, I don't think it will be a major factor for Porsche in future, either.
Edited by F6C on Wednesday 24th February 16:10
Agree with a lot of what’s been said, from both points of view, but with regards the new EV coming through, in my opinion it certainly lessons the gap between “special cars” and “normal cars”, like Porsche have been brilliant at making and developing their straight 6 engine, but if all cars are now being run by batteries, which any car manufacturer can probably get, the specialness and niche of the product get smaller IMO.
NIgt3 said:
Agree with a lot of what’s been said, from both points of view, but with regards the new EV coming through, in my opinion it certainly lessons the gap between “special cars” and “normal cars”, like Porsche have been brilliant at making and developing their straight 6 engine, but if all cars are now being run by batteries, which any car manufacturer can probably get, the specialness and niche of the product get smaller IMO.
My thoughts exactly. The differentiator of say, a Porsche (FLAT 6), a Ferrari with a perhaps a Toyota (Supra) for example, isn't just the brand, it's the engine, its character and sound. If all you have to compare is the badge, body style, trim etc and electric motors then I can see the premium brands suffering badly.F6C said:
Not entirely convinced.
This isn't a boutique operation that lives and dies on the loyalty of customers in the old school sense. Porsche now sells over 200,000 units a year and probably wants that number to increase further in the EV era.
Cars aren't phones and the buying process isn't the same (yet), but as ever Apple is a useful yardstick. What sort of 'loyalty' is it that keeps Apple's customers coming back? Not the sort you're referring to, I don't think.
The old model of dealers and personal relationships is already dying out. As EVs take over, it will only become less relevant. People will be much more likely to just order a car online like they do a phone. Moreover, EVs tend to need much less aftercare / servicing than combustion cars, which will mean even less opportunity for the old style of dealer relationship to be be fostered or even start.
When the sort of old school relationship and loyalty with regard to premium car dealers and brands really mattered, the volumes were tiny compared to today. Don't think there are nearly enough of that kind of customer to really be relevant any longer. The vast majority of customers won't be anything like that.
Tesla is already doing the online sales thing at scale and probably shows the way the industry is going. Basically, it looks like the future is increasingly people buying Porsches online in fairly big numbers via some kind of monthly payment and it will be all about perceptions of the product and branding and image, part of which will be informed by the actual character and quality of the product, but not all. Just like an iPhone. But nobody buys an iPhone because of loyalty to their local Apple store, that's my point.
Certainly this model of buying - plus the idea of fractional ownership / paying for access to cars on demand - is the way the industry sees things going. So, if your notion of enduring old school loyalty isn't at the heart of how the likes of Tesla and Apple shift product, I don't think it will be a major factor for Porsche in future, either.
It's not the Apple Store that I am referring to, it's the brand itself.This isn't a boutique operation that lives and dies on the loyalty of customers in the old school sense. Porsche now sells over 200,000 units a year and probably wants that number to increase further in the EV era.
Cars aren't phones and the buying process isn't the same (yet), but as ever Apple is a useful yardstick. What sort of 'loyalty' is it that keeps Apple's customers coming back? Not the sort you're referring to, I don't think.
The old model of dealers and personal relationships is already dying out. As EVs take over, it will only become less relevant. People will be much more likely to just order a car online like they do a phone. Moreover, EVs tend to need much less aftercare / servicing than combustion cars, which will mean even less opportunity for the old style of dealer relationship to be be fostered or even start.
When the sort of old school relationship and loyalty with regard to premium car dealers and brands really mattered, the volumes were tiny compared to today. Don't think there are nearly enough of that kind of customer to really be relevant any longer. The vast majority of customers won't be anything like that.
Tesla is already doing the online sales thing at scale and probably shows the way the industry is going. Basically, it looks like the future is increasingly people buying Porsches online in fairly big numbers via some kind of monthly payment and it will be all about perceptions of the product and branding and image, part of which will be informed by the actual character and quality of the product, but not all. Just like an iPhone. But nobody buys an iPhone because of loyalty to their local Apple store, that's my point.
Certainly this model of buying - plus the idea of fractional ownership / paying for access to cars on demand - is the way the industry sees things going. So, if your notion of enduring old school loyalty isn't at the heart of how the likes of Tesla and Apple shift product, I don't think it will be a major factor for Porsche in future, either.
Edited by F6C on Wednesday 24th February 16:10
Nokia once dominated phones, Apple acquired some good technology and out-marketed them, and Nokia failed. Blackberry once dominated the business phone market, and also died when Apple came along. The next Apple is not far away, at which point Apple will struggle if they don't respond to the threat in the right way.
But people don't buy Apple phones because of the technology (it's not usually the most advanced), in the main it's the Apple brand and the associated aura that it bestows on the user. There are some good parallels there with Porsche, but in this case it's a £40 a month phone that makes the mass market feel good, v a £150k-£200k car that maybe only the top 1% can afford.
Tesla (or someone else) coud do the same in the car market, and Porsche could fail if the top 1% suddenly feel that they get more from the new brand.
Believe it or not, Maybach once had an 18 month waiting list for a car, but it's now a badge on an S class, not a marque. And there are a lot of others that have been and gone.
I'm not convinced of the "fractional ownership" (or monthly rental) model will make a difference as they are just finance deals anyway. Try breaking any contract early for something with an asset involved, such as a car, a "rented" TV or an expensive phone, and you'll see what I mean. We already have these models now with PCP, and it's not too hard to remodel a deal with no deposit and servicing costs built in, but then you very quickly get to a high monthly cost given the depciating asset involved, and again we're back to the top 1 or 2%...
Porsche's business model has a range of cars that start relatively cheaply in order to get people engaged, but goes up to £1m+ for the specials such as the 918. They are accessible, and there is cachet... but this can evaporate very quickly when a dealer principal looks at you as if you're scum when you want to ugrade your 911 or Boxster and spend £150k on a new car, or when the salesman laughs at you and points you in the direction of thier used cars...
My point is that brand loyalty is very, very fickle these days. People have short attention spans. Businesses have shorter lifespans than ever. What goes around eventually does come around and but you in the a**.
I would agree that brand loyalty is fickle in general, but as a fairly long term Apple and Porsche GT person I would suggest the following:
(1)Of course there are people who buy Apple or Porsche for some kind of perceived status and if the companies can market to this they will do so.
(2) In the case of Apple I am surprised that so many people think status matters. For me the key is the integration of the whole system, not the brand...I use a MacBook Pro,iPhone and AirPods and the reason is that I never worry about compatibility ; the upgrades are a breeze. I use the Apple store to migrate iPhone/Macbook when I upgrade the device and it all works flawlessly, plus use iCloud for storage.
No interest in latest devices..have a IPhone X and two year old MacBook. There is no functional reason for me to upgrade anything but will do so when a particular functional advance makes it worthwhile. I do not think for a moment that each of these devices individually is the best ..they're just hardware anyway. I just like the Apple environment.
(2) The Porsche brand like any premium brand will attract some people for reasons of status, and to me. if it makes them feel good, why not?. Like people buy Rolexes or Tiffany jewellery or the like. People often buy houses to be in a desirable area.
Not everyone though.
I went to Porsche because of a single event. I was at the Nürburgring years ago with a brand new M6 V10, and my instructor rightly concluded it was underbraked and heavy. I had had a long string of M cars and was already not so happy wth the BMW direction. He got me to try a 996 GT3 that visit and that was the moment when I wanted a Porsche GT car. I read a review of the then new 997RS and that convinced me to buy a GT car there and then.
I am not convinced that most normal people can even tell what they are - naturally a Porsche fan can identify them but for the rest its just another in the endless flavours of the same 911 form factor. Like Apple, I would never claim its the best product out there for a second.It is more a comfort with the cars which are good road cars and very well suited to track days when I want to do that. I have no interest a full track-only car and I also am aware that the talent of the driver is what makes more of a difference than a few more BHP or a few kilos of weight shaved off.
So in the end it's a comfort and familiarity thing.
I have driven a lot of the fast EVs..Bi-motor Teslas, Taycan Turbo S etc and recognize the change coming.
I do think this will have an impact on brand loyalty but I recall when digital watches came out, and Swatch revolutionized the watch industry. There is no reason to wear a watch, though I do, and not a smart watch, and yet there is huge brand loyalty to the traditional watchmakers. The the top of the market may well endure. A Patek Philippe is vastly less capable than a good smartwatch and does not keep better time, but I don't see any price decline soon.
The loyalty may play in the EV vs ICE world. I know a lot of people who switched to EV and they all say the same thing.
"Never going back"
For younger people who drive EVs in particular the allure of GT cars may well be zero, so the future product range for Porsche is going to have to be hugely compelling. More importantly the availability of fast and convenient recharging to catch up wth Tesla is not going to be easy.
(1)Of course there are people who buy Apple or Porsche for some kind of perceived status and if the companies can market to this they will do so.
(2) In the case of Apple I am surprised that so many people think status matters. For me the key is the integration of the whole system, not the brand...I use a MacBook Pro,iPhone and AirPods and the reason is that I never worry about compatibility ; the upgrades are a breeze. I use the Apple store to migrate iPhone/Macbook when I upgrade the device and it all works flawlessly, plus use iCloud for storage.
No interest in latest devices..have a IPhone X and two year old MacBook. There is no functional reason for me to upgrade anything but will do so when a particular functional advance makes it worthwhile. I do not think for a moment that each of these devices individually is the best ..they're just hardware anyway. I just like the Apple environment.
(2) The Porsche brand like any premium brand will attract some people for reasons of status, and to me. if it makes them feel good, why not?. Like people buy Rolexes or Tiffany jewellery or the like. People often buy houses to be in a desirable area.
Not everyone though.
I went to Porsche because of a single event. I was at the Nürburgring years ago with a brand new M6 V10, and my instructor rightly concluded it was underbraked and heavy. I had had a long string of M cars and was already not so happy wth the BMW direction. He got me to try a 996 GT3 that visit and that was the moment when I wanted a Porsche GT car. I read a review of the then new 997RS and that convinced me to buy a GT car there and then.
I am not convinced that most normal people can even tell what they are - naturally a Porsche fan can identify them but for the rest its just another in the endless flavours of the same 911 form factor. Like Apple, I would never claim its the best product out there for a second.It is more a comfort with the cars which are good road cars and very well suited to track days when I want to do that. I have no interest a full track-only car and I also am aware that the talent of the driver is what makes more of a difference than a few more BHP or a few kilos of weight shaved off.
So in the end it's a comfort and familiarity thing.
I have driven a lot of the fast EVs..Bi-motor Teslas, Taycan Turbo S etc and recognize the change coming.
I do think this will have an impact on brand loyalty but I recall when digital watches came out, and Swatch revolutionized the watch industry. There is no reason to wear a watch, though I do, and not a smart watch, and yet there is huge brand loyalty to the traditional watchmakers. The the top of the market may well endure. A Patek Philippe is vastly less capable than a good smartwatch and does not keep better time, but I don't see any price decline soon.
The loyalty may play in the EV vs ICE world. I know a lot of people who switched to EV and they all say the same thing.
"Never going back"
For younger people who drive EVs in particular the allure of GT cars may well be zero, so the future product range for Porsche is going to have to be hugely compelling. More importantly the availability of fast and convenient recharging to catch up wth Tesla is not going to be easy.
gd said:
I'm not convinced of the "fractional ownership" (or monthly rental) model will make a difference as they are just finance deals anyway. Try breaking any contract early for something with an asset involved, such as a car, a "rented" TV or an expensive phone, and you'll see what I mean. We already have these models now with PCP, and it's not too hard to remodel a deal with no deposit and servicing costs built in, but then you very quickly get to a high monthly cost given the depciating asset involved, and again we're back to the top 1 or 2%...
I'd say two things. First, I'd be surprised if Porsche wasn't already there in terms of the significant majority of sales by volume and revenue already being financed. A few megabucks cars at the top being bought by the properly wealthy aren't what the business is built on. Secondly, the whole finance and fractional ownership thing is what the huge expansion of 'premium' car volume has been built on.The industry, for what it's worth, only expects that element to become more dominant as we move into an era where people increasingly aren't even expected to own these things individually but instead pay for access on demand. Right now, you can jump onto Tesla's UK site and order a Model 3 for contract hire for £349 a month plus VAT. Same car is £40k up front. If everyone had to pay the £40k up front, the whole thing would be a total non starter and we'd be back to the sort of volumes you used to see in ye olde days when even a basic BMW was a bit special.
But those days and the days of old school loyalty at your local dealer are gone.
F6C said:
I'd say two things. First, I'd be surprised if Porsche wasn't already there in terms of the significant majority of sales by volume and revenue already being financed. A few megabucks cars at the top being bought by the properly wealthy aren't what the business is built on. Secondly, the whole finance and fractional ownership thing is what the huge expansion of 'premium' car volume has been built on.
The industry, for what it's worth, only expects that element to become more dominant as we move into an era where people increasingly aren't even expected to own these things individually but instead pay for access on demand. Right now, you can jump onto Tesla's UK site and order a Model 3 for contract hire for £349 a month plus VAT. Same car is £40k up front. If everyone had to pay the £40k up front, the whole thing would be a total non starter and we'd be back to the sort of volumes you used to see in ye olde days when even a basic BMW was a bit special.
But those days and the days of old school loyalty at your local dealer are gone.
Great post.The industry, for what it's worth, only expects that element to become more dominant as we move into an era where people increasingly aren't even expected to own these things individually but instead pay for access on demand. Right now, you can jump onto Tesla's UK site and order a Model 3 for contract hire for £349 a month plus VAT. Same car is £40k up front. If everyone had to pay the £40k up front, the whole thing would be a total non starter and we'd be back to the sort of volumes you used to see in ye olde days when even a basic BMW was a bit special.
But those days and the days of old school loyalty at your local dealer are gone.
I think the analogy with watches is a very interesting one.
It comes to the heart of value ... a sense that a life well lived for anything or anyone has value.
When my Comex Rolex which is battered and bruised by my lifetime experience wearing it has an authenticity to which others aspire, that is a life well lived for both the person and the watch. (This is illustrative).
When I pass along my battered Rolex Oyster Perpetual which has been worn through years of my everyday living, has been powered by my motion and mechanically looked after by me to be passed along the chain, that gives value both to my life and the watch. This is reality.
When my 1999 Porsche GT3Mk1CS is passed along the line the engineering heritage and the use that I have made of it ... including keeping it working to it's engineering optimum, has value. And it will be cherished. This is reality.
When my 2014 BMWi3 runs into battery problems ... where will be the future in this for anybody ? BMW said in 2014 that the carbon fibre chassis, leather interior and our usage would be kept and they would replace the electronics including the battery to recycle it's use for us ... they lied.
Nobody can argue with the fact that Swatch now own many of the World's historically premier watch brands .. not Rolex, not Patek Philipe, but where is the passion in a Swatch ?
They did actually take a poke at the classic brands with their Platinum limited edition ... but where is the life well-lived ?
If the appreciation of life is so superficial ... why don't we just rent it ?
Maybe some do ... but there is no sense of a life well-lived in this.
At least, not for me.
It has taken 60 years for Porsche to build this heritage .. if what is said above is correct, this counts for nothing and they are Chinese clever just like the ... Chinese.
But the Chinese are buying up all the strategic materials in exchange for railroads and Chinese factory ships off the coast of developing nations .... so they / we had better shape-up.
It comes to the heart of value ... a sense that a life well lived for anything or anyone has value.
When my Comex Rolex which is battered and bruised by my lifetime experience wearing it has an authenticity to which others aspire, that is a life well lived for both the person and the watch. (This is illustrative).
When I pass along my battered Rolex Oyster Perpetual which has been worn through years of my everyday living, has been powered by my motion and mechanically looked after by me to be passed along the chain, that gives value both to my life and the watch. This is reality.
When my 1999 Porsche GT3Mk1CS is passed along the line the engineering heritage and the use that I have made of it ... including keeping it working to it's engineering optimum, has value. And it will be cherished. This is reality.
When my 2014 BMWi3 runs into battery problems ... where will be the future in this for anybody ? BMW said in 2014 that the carbon fibre chassis, leather interior and our usage would be kept and they would replace the electronics including the battery to recycle it's use for us ... they lied.
Nobody can argue with the fact that Swatch now own many of the World's historically premier watch brands .. not Rolex, not Patek Philipe, but where is the passion in a Swatch ?
They did actually take a poke at the classic brands with their Platinum limited edition ... but where is the life well-lived ?
If the appreciation of life is so superficial ... why don't we just rent it ?
Maybe some do ... but there is no sense of a life well-lived in this.
At least, not for me.
It has taken 60 years for Porsche to build this heritage .. if what is said above is correct, this counts for nothing and they are Chinese clever just like the ... Chinese.
But the Chinese are buying up all the strategic materials in exchange for railroads and Chinese factory ships off the coast of developing nations .... so they / we had better shape-up.
RDMcG, can't disagree with what you say, it's a very personal experience of the brands you love and why you love them, but I think you're maybe having a different experience from the US than we are in the UK. You're able to order the cars you want, and with respect maybe it's because you're clearly able to afford quite an amazing fleet, so your dealer is also likely to see you as a good customer. My experience of living in the US many years ago is that the service culture is much stronger than in the UK, and good customers are treated very well. Have to agree 100% with you on EVs too.
F6C, that was my point... there is already a finance system in place so I don't see the much lauded fractional ownership/rental model changing anything. The figure you quote on the Tesla Model 3 is also a business rental with 6 months up front... not unusal for other cars and comparable to BMWs, etc. Again nothing new... and try to get out of the scheme early and it's not cheap. Have to agree with you that finance is probably the reason for all of this demand though, without access to cheap money it would be a very different market.
WCZ and LOTM... I just find bribes distasteful. Maybe I'm from the wrong culture, or just naieve. It feels wrong to hand over a lot of cash to someone working in a legitimate business in order to jump a queue that they are creating. I'll stick to my used car instead.
ChrisW... I couldn't agree more.
F6C, that was my point... there is already a finance system in place so I don't see the much lauded fractional ownership/rental model changing anything. The figure you quote on the Tesla Model 3 is also a business rental with 6 months up front... not unusal for other cars and comparable to BMWs, etc. Again nothing new... and try to get out of the scheme early and it's not cheap. Have to agree with you that finance is probably the reason for all of this demand though, without access to cheap money it would be a very different market.
WCZ and LOTM... I just find bribes distasteful. Maybe I'm from the wrong culture, or just naieve. It feels wrong to hand over a lot of cash to someone working in a legitimate business in order to jump a queue that they are creating. I'll stick to my used car instead.
ChrisW... I couldn't agree more.
gd said:
It feels wrong to hand over a lot of cash to someone working in a legitimate business in order to jump a queue that they are creating.
With respect, think you have that bit back to front. It’s the punters creating the queue. This all comes down to the punters. If they’re paying bribes, that’s down to the punters too.This is not equivalent to corruption in some countries where you’re forced to pay a bribe to, I don’t know, get building planning or a business contract because that’s the endemic culture where you live and you simply can’t get on with life if you don’t do it.
This is a totally discretionary purchase of a luxury good that nobody needs to make in order to go about their normal business. If punters wouldn’t bribe, there’d be no bribing. Not that I personally approve of how the dealers behave in this regard, but that’s by the by. If one wants to be cross with someone, that should be the bribe paying punters and the punters more broadly who are driving all of this.
gd said:
WCZ and LOTM... I just find bribes distasteful. Maybe I'm from the wrong culture, or just naieve. It feels wrong to hand over a lot of cash to someone working in a legitimate business in order to jump a queue that they are creating. I'll stick to my used car instead.
It's more than distasteful, it's illegal...Twinfan said:
gd said:
WCZ and LOTM... I just find bribes distasteful. Maybe I'm from the wrong culture, or just naieve. It feels wrong to hand over a lot of cash to someone working in a legitimate business in order to jump a queue that they are creating. I'll stick to my used car instead.
It's more than distasteful, it's illegal...Twinfan said:
gd said:
WCZ and LOTM... I just find bribes distasteful. Maybe I'm from the wrong culture, or just naieve. It feels wrong to hand over a lot of cash to someone working in a legitimate business in order to jump a queue that they are creating. I'll stick to my used car instead.
It's more than distasteful, it's illegal...Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff