Former m car enthusiast after a 996, advice needed

[thegermancarguy]

Hi guys,

I have always been an m car fanatic and have ag the same time wanted a 911 for several years. Have looked at 996/997 adds for many years but decided against buying a shave been put off by horror stories of engine failure and the resulting rebuild/replacement costs.

I’m after a 966 manual coupe, preferably with aero kit. Can be earlier or later model. However, I’m hesitant as don’t want to dive in to a car with bore scoring for example.
Now I know you’d suggest a boroscope investigation etc.
how common is the issue? Are there any tell tale signs?
What are the average associated costs with owning one? I’m a former m3 owner- they have their own problems and although e46s can suffer from engine failure it doesn’t seem to be as common as 996 Porsches.
Finally, prices seem to be all over the place- ranging from £10k - mid 20s for carrera 2 and more for 4s models.

[conanius]

thegermancarguy said:

Hi guys,

I have always been an m car fanatic and have ag the same time wanted a 911 for several years. Have looked at 996/997 adds for many years but decided against buying a shave been put off by horror stories of engine failure and the resulting rebuild/replacement costs.

I’m after a 966 manual coupe, preferably with aero kit. Can be earlier or later model. However, I’m hesitant as don’t want to dive in to a car with bore scoring for example.
Now I know you’d suggest a boroscope investigation etc.
how common is the issue? Are there any tell tale signs?
What are the average associated costs with owning one? I’m a former m3 owner- they have their own problems and although e46s can suffer from engine failure it doesn’t seem to be as common as 996 Porsches.
Finally, prices seem to be all over the place- ranging from £10k - mid 20s for carrera 2 and more for 4s models.

Firstly - hello ! So you know where I'm coming from, I bought my 1998 996 3.4 Manual Carrera 2 Coupe in May last year. Its got (as of Saturday) 140,000 miles and I drive it daily, it lives on the drive, it has two kids seats in the back, I use it as an every day car.

Its big, but read this - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... - It will give you insight to 996.1 ownership.

So, prices are all over the place - that is for a variety of reasons. Ignoring the GT3, Turbo and C4S, you've got a multitude of combinations:

Coupe or Cab. Coupe is more desirable
C2 or C4. C2 is more desirable
Manual or Tiptronic. Manual is more desirable

You've also mentioned the aero kit, you've just added more to the price.

I personally think that what you'll save on purchase price, you'll spend on your first trip to a specialist. I can't find the quote but someone on here said that you'll end up spending £20k to get into a reasonable 996 after the first service - I think that stands true. There are lots of 996 911's out there - hold out for one with good history. Just getting a car with the spec you want which has loads of missing history is a mistake.

I think plan to spend some cash up front when you first get it (£3-4k isn't unreasonable if you get a mid/high teens car) and then £1500-2k a year if you're using it. You'll hear stories of people only needing a £200 service and it getting a clear MOT with zero advisories. I don't doubt that happens, but I think that's a rare occurrence now considering the age of the cars.

I won't do the IMS/RMS/Engine rebuild saga. I would risk, (wrongly) saying cars that were going to go pop have had that happen. My car had an Autofarm rebuilt engine at about 70k miles with the different cylinder liners (Nikasil ?). Its rock solid and I love the engines character. It has TopGear 200 cell cats and sports silencers, so gets lovely and vocal up top and revs brilliantly.

I appreciate a rebuild is not cheap, but there are plenty of other expensive things to fix, these are old cars now. I'm getting all my suspension refreshed at CG, that won't be cheap, but will give the car a new lease of life. Air con radiators and piping fails. Brake pipes that go over the engine fail. Consider that in any car you look at.

You'll then get into "996.1 or 996.2" debates. They're quite different cars, with different 'things to be aware of'. I think a fair summary is the 996.1 is the 'pure' car and the 996.2 is a bit more 'mature'. No wrong choice there, just down to preference.

I wanted a car I really had to drive as for me thats 90% of the fun. You also get to tell people you've got the lightest (watercooled) 911 if you get a 996.1 C2 (its lighter than the GT3). There is a great article about them here - https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/modern-classics...

I hope that helps. They're brilliant cars.

Edited by conanius on Monday 27th March 15:00

[MrC986]

I also think the MOT history tells a lot about a car....a good owner will sort the advisories between the MOTs as well as have an annual oil service regardless of low usage. Things like brake lines are a regular repair item on 20+ yr old cars as well as suspension bushes. Some of the aerokit cars can also be hiding corrosion behind the skirts.

Your first reply is a good one BTW. I've an aerokit C4 manual (it's my third 996 I've had) which I've had a full engine rebuild; full suspension replacement and also had a pinion bearing in the gearbox so I'm familiar with the running costs and the bigger bills having bought at the bottom of the price bracket with the current one with me nearly 6 yrs.

[AlasdairB10]

I ran an E39 M5 and 996.2 C2 at the same time a few years ago. Both got decent use. The 996 was more expensive to run even though both were dealer serviced and had specialists do one off work. A 996 will definately cost more to maintain and run even if you use a specialist. Still, I think its worth it for the driving experience. I didnt worry too much about how much I spent on it but I figure it was probably costing me 2-3k a year in servicing and bits and pieces (exhaust, engine mounts, clutch bearings etc). When I sold it to a mate it was in pretty good condition.

When I got my 996 I decided which version I wanted (I couldnt get a decent early 996 so went for a late .2 as they have modifications which, in my view, make them better cars anyway) then got the best I could find. Get out and drive as many as you can - watch out for sloppy suspension and clonks which show they havent been serviced properly. I drove one that had been recently serviced by Porsche and it had lose top mounts... I eventually ended up with 70 mile C2 which was owned by a young chap who lived with his mum so you never know where you will find the right one.

I didnt bother checking for bore scoring - you can get it checked and be clear then 1000 miles later it will start. Consensus seems to be that its a bigger risk with low mileage cars but who knows...Just try to find a well serviced car and get it checked out or buy it with someone who knows what they are looking at. I got the bearing etc done when it needed a new clutch and its put 25k miles on since then with out problems. You could also look for a Hartech car which will have had everything done.

If you are having trouble deciding which one to get there's an old 911UK article which compares my old one against a C4S and a C4. It was a good write up so worth a look.

Last point, 911UK.com is firendly and helpful forum with lots of good advice. Hope you find a nice one. I loved mine.

[nunpuncher]

thegermancarguy said:

I’m hesitant as don’t want to dive in to a car with bore scoring for example.

The easiest way to avoid borescoring is to buy a 996.1 3.4.

Borescoring tends to affect the 3.6 as that's when they introduced the lokasil bore coating, increased the bore without changing the block resulting in thinner walls with the same water jacket meaning it ran hotter. The worst cars for it are the 997.1 3.8s as they bored the block out even further.

I bought mine for 15k 4 years ago and although it's not had any major issues I've put money in to suspension, brakes, tyres, belts, pulleys, plumbing etc sometimes through necessity and sometimes for peace of mind. The only real failure I've had was a burst power steering pipe.

The range of prices really reflect the quality of car. It may seem ridiculous that 2 cars of the same model, year and even mileage have a 50%+ difference in price but there's definitely a reason for it. I shudder to think what a £10k 996 would be like. Not even just the list of things wrong with it, many of which I don't doubt you could ignore and still use it. It would drive like st and defeat the whole purpose of owning it. A good one will drive in a way that will never have you looking at an M car again. A bad one will really make you wonder what all the fuss is about.

[Andyuk911]

Have a view of this channel, some great info

An example:-

https://youtu.be/mY8k1FKSxfE

I had a late 996.1 C4 Tip for commuting, note late cars have the electronic switches for engine hood and front boot.

The only issue I had in 40k+ miles was the RMS & MAF, but they were covered by the warranty at the time.

I just looked the car up ... last MOT only shows 56k miles Doh it must be a garage queen LOL

Edited by Andyuk911 on Wednesday 29th March 12:44

[MrC986]

There's a train of thought as well that Tiptronic cars are more susceptible than the the manual cars to bore scoring. Like an M-car, if they go wrong, they still have the appetite of a car that cost £60k (plus) new but as Slippydiff and others say, if you can find a car with a fully rebuilt engine it helps lessen the potential future financial burden. When you compare the 911 to the equivalent Ferrari of their day they are more driveable and certainly in many cases more affordable to run. A good specialist is worth the effort to find and maintain a good relationship with as they will help reduce the running costs.