981 Cayman S Manual VS PDK numbers...
Discussion
Latest PDK iterations generally get positive reviews lately and personally I can't argue against them, when I test drove the 981 Cayman S PDK at my local Porsche dealer a while ago it really seemed good, fast and seamless at the same time. I would have liked to try a manual but as recently very often happens in Porsche dealers (at least here in Italy) there were no manual cars available for a test drive. At my request for a manual car obviously the dealer told me that the PDK makes the car faster in acceleration and now it is very improved, etc.
It is true that PDK do a great job in standstill acceleration but they also add consistent amount of weight and I doubt they are necessary in a NA car without loads of torque as a 3.4 Cayman. I mean, with that power and torque a conventional manual shifter can still be friendly to use.
Now the numbers, I was reading the latest Auto Motor und Sport this morning when I noted an interesting comparison between a manual Cayman S and a PDK equipped one. Apart from the shifter they were simillary equipped:
the manual weighed in a considerable 65kg less than the PDK, got the same 0-62mph and shaved almost 1 second to 124mph. Ok, 1s to 124mph is not a great difference but according to Porsche the PDK should be quicker to 62mph and 100mph and should weigh only 30kg more.
I understand that PDK is so easy to live with and comes as a costly option so Porsche wants to sell it to all of us but why do they have to market it with numbers that arent't actually true?
It is true that PDK do a great job in standstill acceleration but they also add consistent amount of weight and I doubt they are necessary in a NA car without loads of torque as a 3.4 Cayman. I mean, with that power and torque a conventional manual shifter can still be friendly to use.
Now the numbers, I was reading the latest Auto Motor und Sport this morning when I noted an interesting comparison between a manual Cayman S and a PDK equipped one. Apart from the shifter they were simillary equipped:
the manual weighed in a considerable 65kg less than the PDK, got the same 0-62mph and shaved almost 1 second to 124mph. Ok, 1s to 124mph is not a great difference but according to Porsche the PDK should be quicker to 62mph and 100mph and should weigh only 30kg more.
I understand that PDK is so easy to live with and comes as a costly option so Porsche wants to sell it to all of us but why do they have to market it with numbers that arent't actually true?
Edited by matsoc on Saturday 16th November 09:15
Why would that make you think Porsche were telling 'lies'? It makes me doubt the test you cited.
I doubt Porsche Cars would risk being sued by some US shyster lawyer.
I couldn't find an actual test comparison for the Cayman but this one on the Carrera backs Porsche on both the weight and significantly faster acceleration.
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/tra...
In any case, I would buy a PDK for a daily driver in traffic where it is magic. For a weekend or play car, then choose the manual so you can experience the rifle bolt action of second to third.
As tested Curb Weight (lb): 3,332 (38.5% front) vs As tested Curb Weight (lb): 3,277 (38.8% front/61.2% rear)
2012 Porsche 911 7MT 2012 Porsche 911 PDK
0-30 (sec.): 1.9 1.5
0-45 (sec.): 3.0 2.6
0-60 (sec.): 4.6 3.9
0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec.): 4.4 3.7
0-75 (sec.): 6.3 5.5
1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 12.7 @ 113.2 12.0 @ 116.5
30-0 (ft): 25 25
60-0 (ft): 102 98
Skid pad lateral accel (g): 1.04 1.03
Slalom: 71.3 71.4
I doubt Porsche Cars would risk being sued by some US shyster lawyer.
I couldn't find an actual test comparison for the Cayman but this one on the Carrera backs Porsche on both the weight and significantly faster acceleration.
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/tra...
In any case, I would buy a PDK for a daily driver in traffic where it is magic. For a weekend or play car, then choose the manual so you can experience the rifle bolt action of second to third.
As tested Curb Weight (lb): 3,332 (38.5% front) vs As tested Curb Weight (lb): 3,277 (38.8% front/61.2% rear)
2012 Porsche 911 7MT 2012 Porsche 911 PDK
0-30 (sec.): 1.9 1.5
0-45 (sec.): 3.0 2.6
0-60 (sec.): 4.6 3.9
0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec.): 4.4 3.7
0-75 (sec.): 6.3 5.5
1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 12.7 @ 113.2 12.0 @ 116.5
30-0 (ft): 25 25
60-0 (ft): 102 98
Skid pad lateral accel (g): 1.04 1.03
Slalom: 71.3 71.4
NicD said:
Why would that make you think Porsche were telling 'lies'? It makes me doubt the test you cited.
The test I cited is absolutely genuine and "Auto Motor und Sport" is the leading car magazine in Germany with 500k copies regularly sold. I don't have the magazine with me now but I found the article at this link:http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/au...
The manual Cayman S is also marginally faster in top speed and in 0-400m sprint than the PDK. It is also lighter than the 2.7 PDK, also present in the test.
About the 991 the situation is a a completely different one, I would choose a PDK all the time, I agree with you and the numbers in the test you cited. The 991 is a different car, bigger and more expensive and the manual option they offer is a nonsense, because it is based on a 7 gears PDK derived transmission, cutting off any weight saving.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes, I agree, I am not saying the PDK Cayman S is slow or too heavy, actually it is the one I test drove and I quite liked it. What makes me a little upset is that manual shifters are already disappearing, most customers just prefer automatic transmission, PDK doesn't need any help from Porsche to "win" this battle but it is still getting it, even if little.truck71 said:
What sort of conclusion did that German article reach, boggo 2.7, spec up a 3.4 or somewhere in between?
As ever in these kind of comparison tests AMS magazine is very cynical, in the conclusions they say that although with the manual 3.4 S you get more fun driving it the wiser choice is getting a 2.7, whcih is appropriate in most situations, and invest the saved money in clever options that help to keep good the resale value (my comment: this canbe true in Germany, not in Italy for instance). Current Cayman S with PDK is (EC figure) 1,425 kg. Add the weight of the usual options and I think you are getting up to about 1500kg (even more so in my older version Cayman S).
I see your point re the context - but I would just say that this shows that not enough effort is being put into weight reduction across the industry. Other ways of cutting emissions and gaining performance are presumably cheaper. And I suppose most people do not care much about weight (if at all).
It just strikes me that there are basically two things you can do to make an object go faster - increase the force used to propel it and decrease resistance. A key element of the second part seems to me to get too little attention.
I think it is strange that very expensive cars are not much lighter than cheap cars. (I accept that a big engine and stonger mechanical components adds weight, but I would expect the use of more expensive materials to counteract that.)
Maybe there is not much to play with once you use steel, such that a 1500kg car should actually be seen as being a lot lighter than a 1600kg car. I see only a 100kg difference and think "Meh. That's a fat passenger different." Are we really playing with a few kg here and there unless you go for a step change in materials?
I see your point re the context - but I would just say that this shows that not enough effort is being put into weight reduction across the industry. Other ways of cutting emissions and gaining performance are presumably cheaper. And I suppose most people do not care much about weight (if at all).
It just strikes me that there are basically two things you can do to make an object go faster - increase the force used to propel it and decrease resistance. A key element of the second part seems to me to get too little attention.
I think it is strange that very expensive cars are not much lighter than cheap cars. (I accept that a big engine and stonger mechanical components adds weight, but I would expect the use of more expensive materials to counteract that.)
Maybe there is not much to play with once you use steel, such that a 1500kg car should actually be seen as being a lot lighter than a 1600kg car. I see only a 100kg difference and think "Meh. That's a fat passenger different." Are we really playing with a few kg here and there unless you go for a step change in materials?
Porsche makes relatively light cars considering dimensions and specifications. In reality the 991 is a bit heavier than a 997 despite they advertise the contrary. Actually what they say is that the 991 would be lighter than 997 with IDENTICAL options but it is a condition that rarely happens in reality as some options were not even available in 997. For instance Sport Auto or AMS, I don't remember, put against a 997.2 S PDK with a 991 S PDK and the 991 was something like 1497kg or about 50 kg heavier than the 997. Anyway the 991 did better than the 997 in any possible test and it is considerably bigger.
Porsche certainly pays concrete attention to keep weight low, don't be fooled by the relative low use of aluminium, today I rather use a cobination of high strenght steels to keep weight low and maximize torsional stiffness performance.
Porsche certainly pays concrete attention to keep weight low, don't be fooled by the relative low use of aluminium, today I rather use a cobination of high strenght steels to keep weight low and maximize torsional stiffness performance.
I work in a Italy based German-owned company that co-design chassis sheet metals parts for automotive industry and I assure you a lot is happeniing in the industry to cut weight. New types of steel got yeld strenght up to 3 times higher than commonly used steels and so they allow intense thickness reduction in many components.
But while a lot of weight is cut off in some areas other weight is added in others so the final result is still not that good. The engines got always more torque and more torque means a transmission that must be heavier to cope (or a lot more expensive)
But while a lot of weight is cut off in some areas other weight is added in others so the final result is still not that good. The engines got always more torque and more torque means a transmission that must be heavier to cope (or a lot more expensive)
Edited by matsoc on Tuesday 19th November 14:37
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