12 GT4's for sale on PistonHeads and growing
Discussion
av185 said:
GT4 is a great road car.....in most cases perhaps 'better' than a GT3 (991) with more usable road performance.
Hence the remarkable Ecoty result with the GT4 winning.
More useable road performance because it's slower than a GT3? Is that what you mean?Hence the remarkable Ecoty result with the GT4 winning.
In the same way a VW Polo would have far more usable road performance as you might well use all of it on the road at some point?
And, conversely, a Bugatti Veyron would have very little usable road performance.
Am I following your logic correctly?
Edited by DJMC on Thursday 3rd December 23:28
DJMC said:
Would I be correct in saying that unless these are bought speculatively, the owners buy them to run on the track mostly?
From what (little) I know, they don't seem to be a practical road car.
Surely for most buyers the best combination of speed, power, and price must still be the "S" model?
But that's taking a logical view of specs. It's more than that. I've not driven a GT4 but it's about the way these cars feel and handle - the sensations, and not just the speed/power.From what (little) I know, they don't seem to be a practical road car.
Surely for most buyers the best combination of speed, power, and price must still be the "S" model?
The front lip is an inconvenience in many situations, however (based on driving my 981 Spyder).
Think about it - a normal Cayman is designed to be a compromise for Chelsea wives to be comfortable in as well as petrolheads, a GT4 isn't. The GT4 is a committed sports car.
BubblesNW said:
It would be nice to think that I have an appreciating motoring asset for the first time in my life but if it turns out to just depreciate slower c'est la vie as they say in Kensington.
But as I don't plan to sell - paid for 5 year non-transferable tracker - it doesn't really matter.
What I can say is that it is a fabulous road car: involving, aural, tactile and yes, I will admit the manual box makes such a difference over the pdk to feel part of the overall experience. Still can't stretch its legs yet but I am smitten...
yup you're repeating yourself But as I don't plan to sell - paid for 5 year non-transferable tracker - it doesn't really matter.
What I can say is that it is a fabulous road car: involving, aural, tactile and yes, I will admit the manual box makes such a difference over the pdk to feel part of the overall experience. Still can't stretch its legs yet but I am smitten...
12 is not a lot for sale really.
Look at how many 991 GT3s there are and what they sell for
Extra allocation is not what a lot of people are making out, it's a few cars per dealership and that's the end of the run.
Evo car of the year.
Last of a dying breed of NA manual Porsches.
I know of at least 2 selling very recently for over £105k.
It's a rare car which sold out very quickly and IMO high prices are here to stay.
Anyway, who cares. There's way too much fascination with the prices. Those who have one think they will stay high, those who don't will always want to see them deflate.
I'd be wanting to buy via an OPC if I was buying a used one too.
Look at how many 991 GT3s there are and what they sell for
Extra allocation is not what a lot of people are making out, it's a few cars per dealership and that's the end of the run.
Evo car of the year.
Last of a dying breed of NA manual Porsches.
I know of at least 2 selling very recently for over £105k.
It's a rare car which sold out very quickly and IMO high prices are here to stay.
Anyway, who cares. There's way too much fascination with the prices. Those who have one think they will stay high, those who don't will always want to see them deflate.
I'd be wanting to buy via an OPC if I was buying a used one too.
Edited by MB 1 on Friday 4th December 03:15
DJMC said:
av185 said:
GT4 is a great road car.....in most cases perhaps 'better' than a GT3 (991) with more usable road performance.
Hence the remarkable Ecoty result with the GT4 winning.
More useable road performance because it's slower than a GT3? Is that what you meanHence the remarkable Ecoty result with the GT4 winning.
In the same way a VW Polo would have far more usable road performance as you might well use all of it on the road at some point?
And, conversely, a Bugatti Veyron would have very little usable road performance.
Am I following your logic correctly?
Edited by DJMC on Thursday 3rd December 23:28
The point is that basically because of the 'non' motorsport engine in the GT4, you don't really need to be 'on it' unlike the GT3 to be at a level what the car is all about in terms of interaction and insane road speed. So in other words the GT4 is perhaps halfway house between a 911 GTS and a GT3. I have already said the GT3 is fairly uninspiring at low speeds......sounds like a bag of nails, driveline shunt, clutch chatter etc etc...yes, all part of the fun maybe but the GT4 sounds great at low speeds and whilst it hasn t got the obvious drama at higher engine speeds, it still nevertheless sounds great. I suppose the other point being the redeeming feature for the GT3 is the PDK S box which clearly has benefits in auto mode during congested driving wheras the fairly heavy clutch in the GT4 (not quite as loaded as the 997 RS!) despite the joys of using this fantastic gearbox to some it could become a touch tiresome in traffic.
RSVP911 said:
EricE said:
It was bound to happen.
Porsche is not a charity and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they're currently cranking out more GT4s than GTS/S/non-S combined
I saw the screen , showing how many GT4's were recently made / due to be made in the coming months - loads vs the same info for the S - virtually none . As I've said before this is more like a run out super model than a limited GT car . Which is brilliant as , it's brilliant and I think everyone who wants one should be able to buy one Porsche is not a charity and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they're currently cranking out more GT4s than GTS/S/non-S combined
Edited by EricE on Thursday 3rd December 23:02
RSVP911 said:
MB 1 said:
12 is not a lot for sale really.
Look at how many 991 GT3s there are and what they sell for
Extra allocation is not what a lot of people are making out, it's a few cars per dealership and that's the end of the run.
Evo car of the year.
Last of a dying breed of NA manual Porsches.
I know of at least 2 selling very recently for over £105k.
It's a rare car which sold out very quickly and IMO high prices are here to stay.
Anyway, who cares. There's way too much fascination with the prices. Those who have one think they will stay high, those who don't will always want to see them deflate.
I'd be wanting to buy via an OPC if I was buying a used one too.
Hi there - I think 12 is a lot at this point in time as first deliveries are very recent . At a similar point in time the GT3's for sale were a tiny handful . They were up for a little over list .Then in the coming months they sky rocketed as people got greedy - but with the higher values came more and more cars for sale - but initially , there were no more than a handful for sale and each sold within a week or so - but as the madness ensued , prices went crazy to 50 % over list , however availability continued to increase , peaking at about 45 cars and as such , sales stopped and then prices gradually reduced to a level of about 10/15 % above list : sensibly priced cars continued to sell.Look at how many 991 GT3s there are and what they sell for
Extra allocation is not what a lot of people are making out, it's a few cars per dealership and that's the end of the run.
Evo car of the year.
Last of a dying breed of NA manual Porsches.
I know of at least 2 selling very recently for over £105k.
It's a rare car which sold out very quickly and IMO high prices are here to stay.
Anyway, who cares. There's way too much fascination with the prices. Those who have one think they will stay high, those who don't will always want to see them deflate.
I'd be wanting to buy via an OPC if I was buying a used one too.
Edited by MB 1 on Friday 4th December 03:15
The GT4 start point is : loads of availability vs demand at current price levels : roughly 50 % over list - ie the same place the 3 got to when the market stalled very abruptly. The current situation has been compounded by the release of another allocation that in relative terms is significant.
The prices being touted are ridiculous, some cars will sell at this level , but not many - I'm betting the market will end up 15 , max 20 % above list - any more that this it will flood and as such , competition will in truth put it right back to those levels : any less and it's not worth cashing in and as such , fewer cars will be available hence prices would remain at this level - simple market economics , I guess.
There are way more cars being made than the GT3 so these numbers may be a touch too high .
The reason for the post : I have no interest in commenting negatively on prices , in fact I have anallocation for one , so I guess I'd be in the opposite camp in this respect . But in truth , I just think this whole limited numbers / hyped overs market is plain old wrong and I really feel for enthusiasts that are forced down this route and it worries me that someone will spend £K 109 on a car that in 3 years could be worth , I don't know , say , £K 45 / 50 - that's one expensive car. I also think it's wrong that genuine enthusiasts can't buy these as list as people take there slot for a quick buck .
Sorry rant over .
Great car though and brilliant value at list
RSVP911 said:
There are way more cars being made than the GT3 so these numbers may be a touch too high .
Richard, I am not sure whether you are correct on this.....I know you recently said you were told about an increase in some numbers but I know for a fact of three OPCs who are only getting 2 more cars and thats it.....and furthermore they will have the same number allocated as 991 GT3s which as we all know ended up around the 300 mark for the UK. I agree btw re your angst at the flippers and just for the record, I am similar to you and buy my cars to keep and run for the pleasure, the GT4 being no exception. It is certainly an incredible car. I do think the situation with the GT4 is unusual in that it is the first really affordable 'GT' car both in terms of inital cost and running costs.....as such it is way more affordable and to many a more attractive and usable vehicle than the 2 year old £125k or whatever GT3s and as such this will have the effect of supporting GT4 prices for some time to come.
Meantime JZM have just listed the latest flipper at £103000.....nice spec non clubsport.
RSVP911 said:
I saw the screen , showing how many GT4's were recently made / due to be made in the coming months - loads vs the same info for the S - virtually none .
I'm lost, previously you said you knew the allocation of one or two dealers that have had 15 cars, now you say you've seen the screen for the entire build log of GT4's? Either you are extremely well connected to the point of having access to extremely confidential information, or something is not right here! I don't believe you have an agenda, but your view on numbers has changed again!RSVP911 said:
EricE said:
It was bound to happen.
Porsche is not a charity and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they're currently cranking out more GT4s than GTS/S/non-S combined
I saw the screen , showing how many GT4's were recently made / due to be made in the coming months - loads vs the same info for the S - virtually none Porsche is not a charity and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they're currently cranking out more GT4s than GTS/S/non-S combined
Edited by EricE on Thursday 3rd December 23:02
mdianuk said:
I'm lost, previously you said you knew the allocation of one or two dealers that have had 15 cars, now you say you've seen the screen for the entire build log of GT4's? Either you are extremely well connected to the point of having access to extremely confidential information, or something is not right here! I don't believe you have an agenda, but your view on numbers has changed again!
No it hasn't , sorry I should have been specific - in 1 dealer I saw the screens and there were loads of GT4 delivered / to be delivered : 20 in total and virtually no S's . It's the 20 from a non Porsche owned dealer that makes me think the numbers will be > 400 , hence my bullish bet of .50p that I'm delighted you've taken me up on. As you say , I really don't have an agenda , I just want to make sure people know what I know when looking at the used market so they have that information to help them make a slightly more informed decision. As I said in previous posts sharing this info isn't in my personal interest as I have a slot for a 4 and as such , in this respect ,high residuals are good . But I just can't say nothing when these things are being punted at £K 109 . I'm genuinely trying to help as I love GT cars , and I have been lucky enough to own various ones along the way and I just think this whole frenzied "overs" thing is plain wrong - I think Porsche should up the numbers so we can all get back to talking about the driving , keep well R
Edited by RSVP911 on Friday 4th December 09:21
robj4 said:
I'm hoping against reason that I obtain an allocation from a second batch in 2016 and it's desperately important that the 'overs' continues a pace because that's the only justification for being allowed another car so soon.
iantr said:
I think it's more "what you would like" than it is "desperately important"..!
Ian, I was joking, can't you get that from the rest of my post? Of course it's not desperately important, if I do fluke a car it will be used and not sold. So there. Edited by robj4 on Friday 4th December 11:31
anonymous said:
[redacted]
In terms of the drive it Is committed compared to a normal 981 Cayman - that's the whole point of it existing. It's not a car just for show, but has serious suspension etc. It depends where your marker is. It's obviously not a committed sports car in your eyes, so fair enough.Re: numbers. 15 cars allocated at one dealer I know of. IMO RSVP911 is on the money.
no one had 15 from the 1st allocation any way. I have said that before, some things not quite right, and as the Poster will not say which OPC had 15 and now has had 20 !
You may as well say one OPC had 35 cars on a forum or 50.
we will know the numbers in 12 months till then it's all a bit hear say like the GT3 numbers were.
my OPC will not take deposits, they have a list of deposits after the 7 or so cars they are getting, where as Nottingham will take your GT4 money still and are saying they can get you a car !
Again it's a mess and I bet Porsche are loving it as are OPC's with the double sells.
Porsche took 30 million in GT4 deposits at a guess it's great marketing to get cash in 12 months before a car comes out, and 1/3 of those people have NOT got their deposits back yet !
As for Porsche caring about flippers, of course they don't care if they did they would be up front and say don't worry we are making 500 UK cars not 200, but when Porsche say we are only making 200 then of course cars will get flipped for money, again a win win for Porsche and a win win for the OPC's
here is a car with no spec in the early days and it took 30 million is deposits minimum !
You may as well say one OPC had 35 cars on a forum or 50.
we will know the numbers in 12 months till then it's all a bit hear say like the GT3 numbers were.
my OPC will not take deposits, they have a list of deposits after the 7 or so cars they are getting, where as Nottingham will take your GT4 money still and are saying they can get you a car !
Again it's a mess and I bet Porsche are loving it as are OPC's with the double sells.
Porsche took 30 million in GT4 deposits at a guess it's great marketing to get cash in 12 months before a car comes out, and 1/3 of those people have NOT got their deposits back yet !
As for Porsche caring about flippers, of course they don't care if they did they would be up front and say don't worry we are making 500 UK cars not 200, but when Porsche say we are only making 200 then of course cars will get flipped for money, again a win win for Porsche and a win win for the OPC's
here is a car with no spec in the early days and it took 30 million is deposits minimum !
anonymous said:
[redacted]
living with a GT4 is it quite compromised, it's very low, the sus is hard, in fact it's harder on soft than my New TTS on it's hard mag ride setting, yes you can spec leather and pcm but you cannot get it in a car park or a multiplex complex etc it's too low and it runs on CUP 2's which will kill you in the rain and low temps come Jan. then you have buckets which put anyone over 55 off and these are much harder to get into than the R, the opening gap when you try and slide in is smaller in the GT4 than my Spyder ! you have to watch NOT to catch the door with a muddy foot and they seem further away than the Spyder also from seat to sill.99% people said the R was nothing more than an S with a few trinkets, but even that seems to have been too compromised for the buying public and many speced chairs not buckets !
people don't want hardcore, that's a fact, how many GT4 are CS pack with no PCM/Radio unit, no leather, phone and the lightweight battery etc etc ie a track spec 3% 2% ?
respect to those 2% mind you, how many Spyder's were true lightweight spec like mine ? 3 yep only 3 and they were only because they were Porsche press cars ! NO ONE speced them lightweight !!
does make people who have CS pack a bit strange if they added all the s
t back in, but hay ho each to their own and all that, all it's added imo is more in car creeks, knocks etc and 15kg of weight high up over the roll centre of the car !!!how many people will fit after market rear toe links on to make it really trackable ? 5% I bet not even that. more the point how many with CS pack ;-)
Porsche have to sell these cars, after all they are road cars, not race cars and not wanna be race cars ! 70% will never see a track.
Edited by PorscheGT4 on Friday 4th December 09:51
PorscheGT4 said:
no one had 15 from the 1st allocation any way. I have said that before, some things not quite right, and as the Poster will not say which OPC had 15 and now has had 20 !
You may as well say one OPC had 35 cars on a forum or 50.
we will know the numbers in 12 months till then it's all a bit hear say like the GT3 numbers were.
my OPC will not take deposits, they have a list of deposits after the 7 or so cars they are getting, where as Nottingham will take your GT4 money still and are saying they can get you a car !
Again it's a mess and I bet Porsche are loving it as are OPC's with the double sells.
Porsche took 30 million in GT4 deposits at a guess it's great marketing to get cash in 12 months before a car comes out, and 1/3 of those people have NOT got their deposits back yet !
As for Porsche caring about flippers, of course they don't care if they did they would be up front and say don't worry we are making 500 UK cars not 200, but when Porsche say we are only making 200 then of course cars will get flipped for money, again a win win for Porsche and a win win for the OPC's
here is a car with no spec in the early days and it took 30 million is deposits minimum !
Geez, you pull RSVP911 up for his figures, then you post all these I assume with no basis of proof?You may as well say one OPC had 35 cars on a forum or 50.
we will know the numbers in 12 months till then it's all a bit hear say like the GT3 numbers were.
my OPC will not take deposits, they have a list of deposits after the 7 or so cars they are getting, where as Nottingham will take your GT4 money still and are saying they can get you a car !
Again it's a mess and I bet Porsche are loving it as are OPC's with the double sells.
Porsche took 30 million in GT4 deposits at a guess it's great marketing to get cash in 12 months before a car comes out, and 1/3 of those people have NOT got their deposits back yet !
As for Porsche caring about flippers, of course they don't care if they did they would be up front and say don't worry we are making 500 UK cars not 200, but when Porsche say we are only making 200 then of course cars will get flipped for money, again a win win for Porsche and a win win for the OPC's
here is a car with no spec in the early days and it took 30 million is deposits minimum !
RSVP911 said:
No it hasn't , sorry I should have been specific - in 1 dealer I saw the screens and there were loads of GT4 delivered / to be delivered : 20 in total and virtually no S's . It's the 20 from a non Porsche owned dealer that makes me think the numbers will be > 400 , hence my bullish bet of .50p that I'm delighted you've taken me up on.
As you say , I really don't have an agenda , I just want to make sure people know what I know when looking at the used market so they have that information to help them make a slightly more informed decision. As I said in previous posts sharing this info isn't in my personal interest as I have a slot for a 4 and as such , in this respect ,high residuals are good . But I just can't say nothing when these things are being punted at £K 109 . I'm genuinely trying to help as I love GT cars , and I have been lucky enough to own various ones along the way and I just think this whole frenzied "overs" thing is plain wrong - I think Porsche should up the numbers so we can all get back to talking about the driving , keep well R
Fair enough matey, look forward to receiving my 50p As you say , I really don't have an agenda , I just want to make sure people know what I know when looking at the used market so they have that information to help them make a slightly more informed decision. As I said in previous posts sharing this info isn't in my personal interest as I have a slot for a 4 and as such , in this respect ,high residuals are good . But I just can't say nothing when these things are being punted at £K 109 . I'm genuinely trying to help as I love GT cars , and I have been lucky enough to own various ones along the way and I just think this whole frenzied "overs" thing is plain wrong - I think Porsche should up the numbers so we can all get back to talking about the driving , keep well R
mdianuk said:
Geez, you pull RSVP911 up for his figures, then you post all these I assume with no basis of proof?
I offer no proof, I said, to quote me 3 post up :-) if you cannot read ! "we will know the numbers in 12 months, till then it's all a bit hear say like the GT3 numbers were."M
TB303 said:
In terms of the drive it Is committed compared to a normal 981 Cayman - that's the whole point of it existing. It's not a car just for show, but has serious suspension etc. It depends where your marker is. It's obviously not a committed sports car in your eyes, so fair enough.
Re: numbers. 15 cars allocated at one dealer I know of. IMO RSVP911 is on the money.
I thank youuuuuu ! Re: numbers. 15 cars allocated at one dealer I know of. IMO RSVP911 is on the money.
PorscheGT4 said:
living with a GT4 is it quite compromised, it's very low, the sus is hard, in fact it's harder on soft than my New TTS on it's hard mag ride setting, yes you can spec leather and pcm but you cannot get it in a car park or a multiplex complex etc it's too low and it runs on CUP 2's which will kill you in the rain and low temps come Jan. then you have buckets which put anyone over 55 off and these are much harder to get into than the R, the opening gap when you try and slide in is smaller in the GT4 than my Spyder ! you have to watch NOT to catch the door with a muddy foot and they seem further away than the Spyder also from seat to sill.
99% people said the R was nothing more than an S with a few trinkets, but even that seems to have been too compromised for the buying public and many speced chairs not buckets !
people don't want hardcore, that's a fact, how many GT4 are CS pack with no PCM/Radio unit, no leather, phone and the lightweight battery etc etc ie a track spec 3% 2% ?
respect to those 2% mind you, how many Spyder's were true lightweight spec like mine ? 3 yep only 3 and they were only because they were Porsche press cars ! NO ONE speced them lightweight !!
does make people who have CS pack a bit strange if they added all the st back in, but hay ho each to their own and all that, all it's added imo is more in car creeks, knocks etc and 15kg of weight high up over the roll centre of the car !!!
how many people will fit after market rear toe links on to make it really trackable ? 5% I bet not even that. more the point how many with CS pack ;-)
Porsche have to sell these cars, after all they are road cars, not race cars and not wanna be race cars ! 70% will never see a track.
Yes, I agree that Porsche are pandering to those who want some comfort, like me, but after years of going from 0-60 in 1 second in my racing days it's not so much that I don't like "speed" it's just that I've done it to death and so want something else. My recent 2012 TTS, with mag ride in normal was "bobbly" and its handling didn't inspire any confidence despite the 4WD. Mag ride, for me, was hopeless. Far too hard. But to others, maybe those who track a little, it could be ideal.99% people said the R was nothing more than an S with a few trinkets, but even that seems to have been too compromised for the buying public and many speced chairs not buckets !
people don't want hardcore, that's a fact, how many GT4 are CS pack with no PCM/Radio unit, no leather, phone and the lightweight battery etc etc ie a track spec 3% 2% ?
respect to those 2% mind you, how many Spyder's were true lightweight spec like mine ? 3 yep only 3 and they were only because they were Porsche press cars ! NO ONE speced them lightweight !!
does make people who have CS pack a bit strange if they added all the s
t back in, but hay ho each to their own and all that, all it's added imo is more in car creeks, knocks etc and 15kg of weight high up over the roll centre of the car !!!how many people will fit after market rear toe links on to make it really trackable ? 5% I bet not even that. more the point how many with CS pack ;-)
Porsche have to sell these cars, after all they are road cars, not race cars and not wanna be race cars ! 70% will never see a track.
Edited by PorscheGT4 on Friday 4th December 09:51
My previous '03 E46 330ci MSport was a great handling car where, after 9 years, I knew its limits. So I personally have tried to emulate the BMWs best bits (RWD, 6cyl) whilst enjoying being able to use more of the Cayman's engine revs in it's base 2.7 form. I can well see how folks become addicted to speed, but that is quite often interpreted as acceleration rather than on the move speed through bends etc. I'm sure a GT4 could thrash my 2.7 around a track, but in everyday road conditions I have a blend of comfort (PASM, 14 way seats) and performance which, so far, makes this model ideal for me as a daily driver. If I were 30 years younger I'm sure I'd have more of a GT4 head on.
So, there's no right or wrong as to which engine or spec but cleverly Porsche allow their customers to choose the spec which suits them in any of the Cayman's manifestations. They are the masters of marketing, but also make extremely well engineered cars. A perfect combination for a profitable business.
I'm off to Silverstone on the 17th to find my Cayman's limits. Can't wait another 9 years!
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