Cayman R Chat

[Jones the cat]

Rsx Boy said:

Red car at Ashgoods sold

The price gap between the R and GT4 is closing

[LiamH66]

Jones the cat said:

The price gap between the R and GT4 is closing

One of them is considerably rarer than the other. They will swap position at some point IMO.

[ChrisW.]

But is the Cayman R a better car than the 981 GT4 ?

Relative to the prospective market size is the Cayman R "hotter" than the 981 GT4 ??

I'm not so sure but it is fair to say that Porsche can't build cars like this any more ... (unless they were to build something solely for Trump's America ?)

That's a tease ...

[housemouse]

LiamH66 said:

One of them is considerably rarer than the other. They will swap position at some point IMO.

I should think fewer manual 987.2 Cayman S were made than 981 GT4s. But I can't see the 987.2 S being worth more than a GT4.

There's more to it than rarity. Personally, I don't think the R has sufficient hardware differences from the S to end up worth more than a 981 GT4. It's dampers, springs, one roll bar and the doors. That's it. The aerokit was an option on any 987.2C. I can't see that being enough to elevate it above the 981 GT4, which has the 3.8 lump, entire front axle, including dampers springs, arms, hubs, brakes, the works, off a 991.1 GT3, plus a bespoke rear axle and aero unique to the model.

I think the 987 Spyder is a bit more likely to scale up just based on the bespoke bodywork that's unique to the model and makes it look pretty different from the standard 987.2 BS.

None of this is to comment on the driving experience. It's quite possible to prefer the drive of a 987R to a 981 GT4. But for collectible status, I don't think the R is bespoke enough to end up more valuable than any GT4, regardless of the prod numbers.

Maybe if they'd only built 150 987R. But it's not that rare.

[LiamH66]

115 Cayman 987 R manual registered in the UK.
141 Cayman 987 R S-A registered in the UK
598 Cayman GT4 (981) registered in the UK

Cayman R is much rarer, especially manual.

[Jones the cat]

I go by the amount of manual ones that are for sale at any given time.
Since an owner of 5 years, its never more than around 10 a year that come up for sale.....whereas 10 GT4's can easily come up for sale per month.

The R seems far more revered and desired for than the ten-a-penny GT4.

[PaulD86]

housemouse said:

There's more to it than rarity. Personally, I don't think the R has sufficient hardware differences from the S to end up worth more than a 981 GT4. It's dampers, springs, one roll bar and the doors. That's it.

Whilst I understand the point you're making, those were not the only changes.

[PaulD86]

ChrisW. said:

I'm not so sure but it is fair to say that Porsche can't build cars like this any more ...

Can't? I'm going to say they can, but choose not to. Is there any legal reason why they couldn’t make a car with hydraulic steering? No. Is there any reason why they could not make smaller cars? No. Is there any reason why they could not make lighter cars? No. Now I will accept that emission regs mean they might need to slap a PPF on the exhaust, or whatever, but having recently driven a 718 GT4, I'm really not sure that the PPF is the destroyer of noise that some make it out to be. So I'd suggest that Porsche absolutely could build cars like they used to and that what they are doing is a choice. Imagine if they built the next Cayman using Alpine A110 size and weight ethos with hydraulic steering and a manual box. There is nothing stopping them. Though they do at least seem to have done a U turn on the nexy Cayman being an EV. So that's something.

[housemouse]

Jones the cat said:

The R seems far more revered and desired for than the ten-a-penny GT4.

Can't see how that can realistically be true. There are fewer Rs than GT4s, I think that's an objective fact. Combine that fact with Rs being "far more revered and desired" as you say and they'd be worth dramatically more. But they're actually worth less.

Given the smaller supply of the R, the lower market value must mean demand / desire for them is substantially lower than the GT4. Again, none of this has anything to do with actual merit.

[housemouse]

PaulD86 said:

Whilst I understand the point you're making, those were not the only changes.

Exhaust. Anything else?

[housemouse]

PaulD86 said:

So I'd suggest that Porsche absolutely could build cars like they used to and that what they are doing is a choice.

They strictly could. However, in Europe at least, there would be things like fleet emissions fines to factor in. Then there's also overall financial viability.

The 987R was actually substantially the same car as a 997 of the era with fairly dramatic (and fully intended) positive cost implications. To do something really close to a 987R today in terms of size and purity re the hydraulic steering, NA engine etc, you arguably couldn't base it on the latest 992 platform (or next-gen 911 platform) and likewise 992 engines. The whole thing would need to be far more bespoke with its own platform and to make money on it you might well end up having to charge more for it than a 911. And then the whole endeavour is a total non starter.

To do an R today and make it viable at a comparable point in the market as the 987R, they'd probably have to be making a smaller, more analogue 911 with which to share the core platform and engines etc. Sounds nice, but can't see it happening!

[CanAm]

Jones the cat said:

The R seems far more revered and desired for than the ten-a-penny GT4.

The Ford Edsel is also "revered" and collectible these days, due to its rarity. In the Edsel's case, however, the rarity is due to the fact that it was st

[bigmowley]

It is a bit of a moot point but the values of CR and 981GT4 are almost inevitably going to continue the current trend of closing together. In numerical terms the CR has held its value remarkably well over the 12 years or so which in real terms, inflation adjusted, has meant very slow gradual depreciation. The more common GT4 has drifted downwards, also slowly, but a little quicker than the CR. We do not see many high mileage poor condition CR coming up for sale so the headline number for the CR usually reflects a low mileage well cherished example. Whereas the bigger population of GT4 throws up more well tracked, higher mileage examples which creates an image of “lower price”. Compare like with like and there is still a big delta between the CR and the GT4. One of my local indies here on the IoM had a stupidly low miles 981GT4 sell recently. I do not know the selling price but the asking was over £70K, good luck getting that for a CR.

[PaulD86]

housemouse said:

PaulD86 said:

Whilst I understand the point you're making, those were not the only changes.

Exhaust. Anything else?

Yes.

[PaulD86]

housemouse said:

PaulD86 said:

So I'd suggest that Porsche absolutely could build cars like they used to and that what they are doing is a choice.

They strictly could. However, in Europe at least, there would be things like fleet emissions fines to factor in. Then there's also overall financial viability.

The 987R was actually substantially the same car as a 997 of the era with fairly dramatic (and fully intended) positive cost implications. To do something really close to a 987R today in terms of size and purity re the hydraulic steering, NA engine etc, you arguably couldn't base it on the latest 992 platform (or next-gen 911 platform) and likewise 992 engines. The whole thing would need to be far more bespoke with its own platform and to make money on it you might well end up having to charge more for it than a 911. And then the whole endeavour is a total non starter.

To do an R today and make it viable at a comparable point in the market as the 987R, they'd probably have to be making a smaller, more analogue 911 with which to share the core platform and engines etc. Sounds nice, but can't see it happening!

As I said, they could and it's a choice. A smaller, lighter car would help re emissions and would be more of a gain than using EPAS, for example. And yes, component sharing with the 911 saved a lot, but the current 911 is also too big and heavy so really they could solve the problem by making both cars smaller. Ultimately Porsche have elected to make bigger and heavier cars, not due to regs but, I would suspect, as this is what sells them the most cars. It's a business, that's fair enough. My point was only that if they wanted to, they could make smaller lighter cars - the current Boxster, Cayman and 911 are not much bigger than their predecessors as this makes them cheaper to make.

[housemouse]

PaulD86 said:

Yes.

What are the other things?

[housemouse]

PaulD86 said:

As I said, they could and it's a choice.

The point is that it may not be. While there are exceptions, generally it's not a realistically available "choice" for a business to "choose" to knowingly produce a product line with a very high probability of catastrophic losses and no probability of spectacular profits. If that is the case for the smaller, analogue style car we're talking about here, it's not really a choice.

[PaulD86]

housemouse said:

PaulD86 said:

Yes.

What are the other things?

This confirms the point I was making - best not to state things as fact if you don't know the facts. If your opinion is that the R wasn't far enough removed from the S, that's fair enough. But best not making a list of the changes and saying "that's it" when it wasn't. If you are interested in knowing the other differences, they are well documented. 30 seconds with Google should suffice.

[housemouse]

PaulD86 said:

This confirms the point I was making - best not to state things as fact if you don't know the facts. If your opinion is that the R wasn't far enough removed from the S, that's fair enough. But best not making a list of the changes and saying "that's it" when it wasn't. If you are interested in knowing the other differences, they are well documented. 30 seconds with Google should suffice.

No it does not. I was not asking out of ignorance. If you listed the other items, it might. Without them, you haven't made any point at all. 30 seconds in Google also does not suffice given there is misinformation on the subject that has been propagated from the launch of the car onwards.

Given your assertion here is that you are in possession of the facts, but I am not, go ahead and state what those facts are. We can then identify which of them, if any, are misapprehensions and we'll come to a conclusion about what the facts are and who is actually in possession of them.

[PaulD86]

housemouse said:

Stuff

You remind me a lot of someone who used to post on here...

Anyway, to confirm. Your list was incomplete.