Discussion
I assume you mean some other user. But whatever, I don't get the sense of your posting in good faith. Were that the case, you'd have just listed the relevant bits instead of this weird internet-troll-dance thing where you don't just explain yourself and instead start invoking third parties?
That's why I think your list is likely wrong. The best way to avoid being caught out accusing someone of not knowing the facts while you yourself may not actually know them is obviously to avoid posting them and getting them wrong. Which is what appears to be your point - not being caught out - as opposed to a good faith discussion about the car.
That's why I think your list is likely wrong. The best way to avoid being caught out accusing someone of not knowing the facts while you yourself may not actually know them is obviously to avoid posting them and getting them wrong. Which is what appears to be your point - not being caught out - as opposed to a good faith discussion about the car.
housemouse said:
Jones the cat said:
The R seems far more revered and desired for than the ten-a-penny GT4.
Can't see how that can realistically be true. There are fewer Rs than GT4s, I think that's an objective fact. Combine that fact with Rs being "far more revered and desired" as you say and they'd be worth dramatically more. But they're actually worth less.Given the smaller supply of the R, the lower market value must mean demand / desire for them is substantially lower than the GT4. Again, none of this has anything to do with actual merit.
Reverence can be niche and philosophical; market value is driven by widespread, high-intensity demand.
ChrisW. said:
The European 964RS was massively different from the 964 C2.
There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
In 1991 I was trying to persuade my father to get himself on the list for a new 964 RS. He had a 1989 Carrera 4 at the time, that I'm guessing he must have paid about £40k for. The 964 RS was more like £70k on the road with necessary extras, so it was a big jump up in new price. I failed to persuade...There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
LiamH66 said:
ChrisW. said:
The European 964RS was massively different from the 964 C2.
There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
In 1991 I was trying to persuade my father to get himself on the list for a new 964 RS. He had a 1989 Carrera 4 at the time, that I'm guessing he must have paid about £40k for. The 964 RS was more like £70k on the road with necessary extras, so it was a big jump up in new price. I failed to persuade...There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
Vee12V said:
Not saying which will be worth more. But considering the CR not being that different. Nor was the 964 RS, yet prices of those tell a different story.
Oh gosh, that's a bad comparison to have made. The list of modifications made to the 964 RS over a C2, is far, far greater than those Porsche made to the Cayman R over a 987.2 3.4 S.Mr Demon went on record on here as saying that with the Cayman R, Porsche had engineered one of biggest weight loss programs ever in one of their cars.
I pointed out that a "wrongly" specced Cayman R - Comfort seats, xenon's, AC and some ICE, made for a car that weighed approx 20kg less than the S it was based on...
Spec a PDK version (as many did) and there's little or no weight loss.
Meanwhile a 964 RS weighed 130kg less than the equivalent C2 ...
BMW E46 M3 CSL ? That'll be 110kg lighter than the equivalent E46 M3.
Put bluntly, the Cayman R was Porsche's marketing department using the R monika (get it ?) on a car which had no right to use it.
When however they used it on the 2016 911R (at 1370 kg the lightest 991.1 produced) it found a car worthy of the R badge once again.
None of the above is a slight on the Cayman R, it is a great package, and almost certainly the most analogue drivers car in the Cayman lineup, but lightweight it isn't, nor is it truly special in the manner of either of the 911Rs Porsche has produced.
And just to really put the cat amongst the pigeons, nor is a 981 GT4 ...
Had the 981 GT4 shed 100kg, used the X51 Powerkit engine along with a nice close ratio gearbox and a suitably short final drive ratio, it could/would be lauded as the finest sub £100K mid-engined car Porsche have ever produced, but Porsche knew they would have been treading on the toes of 911 had they produced such a car.
Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 18th February 22:50
POORCARDEALER said:
They were very hard sells back in the day , got panned by the motoring press - you could buy an RS for under £25k
All the best cars were hard sells "back in the day".E46 M3 CSL
Clio 182 Trophy
Megan R26 R
964 RS
Convincing buyers to pay "more for less" 30 years ago was a tough gig.
My CSL cost me £28k at 5 years old, my 964 RS just over £23K at 11 years old. My 993 RS £34K at 9 years old ...
ChrisW. said:
The European 964RS was massively different from the 964 C2.
There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
The Service Information Technik bulletin for the 964 RS ran to 23 pages Chris (about twenty two and a half pages longer than the Cayman R item ...) There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
https://pca.st/episode/583a9c18-314a-402d-bbc6-e9c...
Cayman R chat on this weeks EVO Podcast....... someone in a Peridot was spotted by the journos while on a photoshoot !!!
16 minutes 20 seconds in the cast....
Must be a poster on here surely ?
Unfortunately James does not know the name of the colour.... tut tut tut.... more homework for the youngsters required
Cayman R chat on this weeks EVO Podcast....... someone in a Peridot was spotted by the journos while on a photoshoot !!!
16 minutes 20 seconds in the cast....
Must be a poster on here surely ?
Unfortunately James does not know the name of the colour.... tut tut tut.... more homework for the youngsters required
Edited by Rsx Boy on Saturday 21st February 03:33
Slippydiff said:
ChrisW. said:
The European 964RS was massively different from the 964 C2.
There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
The Service Information Technik bulletin for the 964 RS ran to 23 pages Chris (about twenty two and a half pages longer than the Cayman R item ...) There was a printed manual from Porsche detailing all the differences that ran to 50 pages ?? Same for the 993RS ...
Accepted that the American 964RS was only a little different from the C2 ....
Was there an equivalent document for the Cayman R ? I think the wider exhaust manifold was the most interesting difference but it doesn't alter the fact that there were far more differences than Porsche publicised ...
Slippydiff said:
POORCARDEALER said:
They were very hard sells back in the day , got panned by the motoring press - you could buy an RS for under £25k
All the best cars were hard sells "back in the day".E46 M3 CSL
Clio 182 Trophy
Megan R26 R
964 RS
Convincing buyers to pay "more for less" 30 years ago was a tough gig.
My CSL cost me £28k at 5 years old, my 964 RS just over £23K at 11 years old. My 993 RS £34K at 9 years old ...
But I have a real soft spot for the Renault Cup class of 2010 .... Renaultsport (now gone !) Twingo 133Cup / Clio 200Cup / Megan 265 Trophy ... what will replace them ?
ChrisW. said:
My Clio 182 Trophy was bought from a chap who had won "the last one" in an Autocar competition ... he really wanted a Subaru Impreza which he intended to switch into. They couldn't give them away ?
But I have a real soft spot for the Renault Cup class of 2010 .... Renaultsport (now gone !) Twingo 133Cup / Clio 200Cup / Megan 265 Trophy ... what will replace them ?
I had a Renault 5 GT Turbo ... but I digress ... although still relevant because ...But I have a real soft spot for the Renault Cup class of 2010 .... Renaultsport (now gone !) Twingo 133Cup / Clio 200Cup / Megan 265 Trophy ... what will replace them ?
The cars you mentioned were only fun due to being lower weight
Cars now are getting heavier and heavier which kills their fun
You can counter this with more power but it's not the same
I think a 1995 era fiat cinquecento weighs 700ish kg but 40 or 50 bhp only - great little fun car but lacking power
Compare that to a
Renault 5 GT Turbo which is quite a bit bigger and around 850ish kg but over twice the power deffo over 100 bhp
Twingo 133 is about 1050 kg
You see?
ATM said:
I had a Renault 5 GT Turbo ... but I digress ... although still relevant because ...
The cars you mentioned were only fun due to being lower weight
Cars now are getting heavier and heavier which kills their fun
You can counter this with more power but it's not the same
I think a 1995 era fiat cinquecento weighs 700ish kg but 40 or 50 bhp only - great little fun car but lacking power
Compare that to a
Renault 5 GT Turbo which is quite a bit bigger and around 850ish kg but over twice the power deffo over 100 bhp
Twingo 133 is about 1050 kg
You see?
Colour me less than convinced, don't get me wrong, weight is definitely a large part of it, but so is size. All the cars Chris mentions are small, which in turn makes the roads effectively wider, which means you have more options when it comes cornering lines, and when the roads get narrow, you can still press on, because if you meet a wide car, van, lorry or tractor, you're still in the safe confines of "your side of the road".The cars you mentioned were only fun due to being lower weight
Cars now are getting heavier and heavier which kills their fun
You can counter this with more power but it's not the same
I think a 1995 era fiat cinquecento weighs 700ish kg but 40 or 50 bhp only - great little fun car but lacking power
Compare that to a
Renault 5 GT Turbo which is quite a bit bigger and around 850ish kg but over twice the power deffo over 100 bhp
Twingo 133 is about 1050 kg
You see?
I did the hot hatch thing years ago and got it out of my system, so they hold little appeal these days.
Now I'd take an Alpine A110 at 1100kg and 250-300hp. Granted the DCT 'box is sub optimal, but I'd take the mid-engined French car over any 986/987 Cayman or Boxster, as it makes them all look like bloated overweight behemoths.
Slippydiff said:
Had the 981 GT4 shed 100kg, used the X51 Powerkit engine along with a nice close ratio gearbox and a suitably short final drive ratio, it could/would be lauded as the finest sub £100K mid-engined car Porsche have ever produced, but Porsche knew they would have been treading on the toes of 911 had they produced such a car.
I think this has always been a mistake from Porsche. Not sure why the seem so scared of having a car that can be better than the 911? For many, it is the 4 seats or the 911 badge they want, so will always buy the 911 anyway.
I always find it weird, why not have a few really, really desirable sports cars in your range. Better than pumping money into Taycans and bloody EV sports cars surely?
Slippydiff said:
Colour me less than convinced, don't get me wrong, weight is definitely a large part of it, but so is size. All the cars Chris mentions are small, which in turn makes the roads effectively wider, which means you have more options when it comes cornering lines, and when the roads get narrow, you can still press on, because if you meet a wide car, van, lorry or tractor, you're still in the safe confines of "your side of the road".
I did the hot hatch thing years ago and got it out of my system, so they hold little appeal these days.
Now I'd take an Alpine A110 at 1100kg and 250-300hp. Granted the DCT 'box is sub optimal, but I'd take the mid-engined French car over any 986/987 Cayman or Boxster, as it makes them all look like bloated overweight behemoths.
Cars are getting heavier and bigger. That's obvious. I did the hot hatch thing years ago and got it out of my system, so they hold little appeal these days.
Now I'd take an Alpine A110 at 1100kg and 250-300hp. Granted the DCT 'box is sub optimal, but I'd take the mid-engined French car over any 986/987 Cayman or Boxster, as it makes them all look like bloated overweight behemoths.
So yes size is a factor. But even a modern small car is heavier than the same sized older car because of safety stuff which means stiffer shells or bodywork. The doors on my Renault 5 felt like they'd dent if you pressed too hard when waxing. Thin metal doesn't exist on cars now. Yes they're safer but less fun.
Then we have emissions stuff which is probably why cars are all Turbo and DCT.
So an A110 is a great option built to be fun and light.
ATM said:
Cars are getting heavier and bigger. That's obvious.
So yes size is a factor. But even a modern small car is heavier than the same sized older car because of safety stuff which means stiffer shells or bodywork. The doors on my Renault 5 felt like they'd dent if you pressed too hard when waxing. Thin metal doesn't exist on cars now. Yes they're safer but less fun.
Then we have emissions stuff which is probably why cars are all Turbo and DCT.
So an A110 is a great option built to be fun and light.
I dented the rear quarter panel on my 205GTi by leaning on it whilst filling it with fuel "back in the day", I'm guessing the French car manufacturers used the same steel supplier ...So yes size is a factor. But even a modern small car is heavier than the same sized older car because of safety stuff which means stiffer shells or bodywork. The doors on my Renault 5 felt like they'd dent if you pressed too hard when waxing. Thin metal doesn't exist on cars now. Yes they're safer but less fun.
Then we have emissions stuff which is probably why cars are all Turbo and DCT.
So an A110 is a great option built to be fun and light.
Gassing Station | Boxster/Cayman | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff