Discussion
I had a AP four pot kit from Reyland Motorsport on my e36 M3, full floating with Pagid RS29 for circa £1850. They'll find a braking solution that won't break the bank. Even though I went for a cheaper caliper the performance is superb. Never warped, never faded and that's with some heavy abuse. They felt better than the PCCB I had on my 911 at the time tbh.definitely better than the brakes on my Cayman GTs.
Can’t comment on APs but I ran Alcons on my old CSL. Fantastic brakes performance wise but expensive to maintain as they don’t have any boots round the pistons meaning they are quick to pit and corrode. They’re not a brake for a daily driver IMO and the refurbishment costs are eye watering. I’d always keep this in mind when going for a brake upgrade.
Porsche911R said:
I am pretty much the master on braking on track even if I say so my self :-) one has to blow one's own trumpet, I am not good at much to be fair, but braking in my portfolio of driving skills must be up there at the top of my personal list of things I do well. while others relish in the perfect heal and toe shift, I tend to put it into auto blip mode (GT4 and GT3) after about 30 minutes, esp if hunting down PDK faster cars. Although I found the R to be very easy to heal and toe on steels, my PCCB car is much harder to master that skill set as the pedal again moves less than either of my R's did, the PCCB cars uses a MC which sits in between the oem steel size and the GT3 size. It makes we wonder why no one fits that one.
nothing cures the mushy feel sadly bar frequent re-bleeding , you can improve on it with nice pads, avoiding heat build up. etc etc
The word "performance" you bring up, again a misleading word as the MC offers zero performance gain in any area of the system, I mean ZERO extra performance gain.
ie no cure to heat fade, no cure to the end stop feel, no cure to a firm pedal , ZERO performance gain.
what you gain is a harder pedal to press, not to be confused with a firm pedal, and also much less pedal travel, for me a no no, but that's personal I guess, I am far happier with an extra 1" of travel for modulation and avoiding ABS cut in, a big no no in this car if it cuts in, adding meters to your braking distance or worse still ice mode where it feels nothing happens for a second ! I make all my time up vs faster cars under brakes, even 20+ yards or more, imo threshold braking is at the top of the skills list for hot lapping along with corner entry, the rest of a track is pretty straight forward to drive when you think about it.
I am talking 10th/10th on track of course, my last Cayman R was a 100% a road car in every way I did not change anything bar front camber on it ! although I did plan a big brake upgrade which I still have in box's lol.
the R is a amazing road car, it has 3 flawed areas for fast hot lapping. again why I always say GT4 for track R for road.
1: brakes unless you have upgraded or own a PCCB car.
2: PSM yaw control unit, what a pitter that is ! you can drive round it but ffs there is always 1 corner on every track where it pisses you off.
3: ABS unit, but if you are good on the brakes you can drive round or avoid ABS.
as a road car, you can discount 2 and 3, and 1 can be improved, either just by pads or by bigger disks, or buy going for a 6 pot caliper and 350mm disks all round, like Mr tippers Black R.
You never fail to amuse me David.... I don't know how you manage the contrary-ism nothing cures the mushy feel sadly bar frequent re-bleeding , you can improve on it with nice pads, avoiding heat build up. etc etc
The word "performance" you bring up, again a misleading word as the MC offers zero performance gain in any area of the system, I mean ZERO extra performance gain.
ie no cure to heat fade, no cure to the end stop feel, no cure to a firm pedal , ZERO performance gain.
what you gain is a harder pedal to press, not to be confused with a firm pedal, and also much less pedal travel, for me a no no, but that's personal I guess, I am far happier with an extra 1" of travel for modulation and avoiding ABS cut in, a big no no in this car if it cuts in, adding meters to your braking distance or worse still ice mode where it feels nothing happens for a second ! I make all my time up vs faster cars under brakes, even 20+ yards or more, imo threshold braking is at the top of the skills list for hot lapping along with corner entry, the rest of a track is pretty straight forward to drive when you think about it.
I am talking 10th/10th on track of course, my last Cayman R was a 100% a road car in every way I did not change anything bar front camber on it ! although I did plan a big brake upgrade which I still have in box's lol.
the R is a amazing road car, it has 3 flawed areas for fast hot lapping. again why I always say GT4 for track R for road.
1: brakes unless you have upgraded or own a PCCB car.
2: PSM yaw control unit, what a pitter that is ! you can drive round it but ffs there is always 1 corner on every track where it pisses you off.
3: ABS unit, but if you are good on the brakes you can drive round or avoid ABS.
as a road car, you can discount 2 and 3, and 1 can be improved, either just by pads or by bigger disks, or buy going for a 6 pot caliper and 350mm disks all round, like Mr tippers Black R.
There is also a Brembo GT kit, which is a plug and play solution for the 987 front end. It uses 2-piece 350mm (or is it 355mm ??) rotors, twinned with the 4-pot calipers form a Ferrari F50 (amongst other applications). In combination with the GT3 MC, RS29s and race-spec fluid, this works quite nicely.
The rear is a bit trickier, I have a 996 GT3 disc and caliper set up, but it required a specially machined hub spacer to put the disc in the right place relative to the caliper mounting points.
I suspect that the rear upgrade is uneconomic and probably overkill (was done by Autofarm for previous owner) - I suspect a nice balance could be achieved by using a different combination of pads between front and rear, retaining the stock rear discs and calipers.
Anyway, the end result is a truly confidence inspiring brake feel - the car will stand on its nose all day long without a hint of fade or a long pedal.
With the TC turned off (as off as it can be) and with the level of grip provided by running Cup 2s on 19s, I don't find the PSM intrudes, and will allow enough of a slip angle to be entertaining.
The rear is a bit trickier, I have a 996 GT3 disc and caliper set up, but it required a specially machined hub spacer to put the disc in the right place relative to the caliper mounting points.
I suspect that the rear upgrade is uneconomic and probably overkill (was done by Autofarm for previous owner) - I suspect a nice balance could be achieved by using a different combination of pads between front and rear, retaining the stock rear discs and calipers.
Anyway, the end result is a truly confidence inspiring brake feel - the car will stand on its nose all day long without a hint of fade or a long pedal.
With the TC turned off (as off as it can be) and with the level of grip provided by running Cup 2s on 19s, I don't find the PSM intrudes, and will allow enough of a slip angle to be entertaining.
Jamie Summers said:
There is also a Brembo GT kit, which is a plug and play solution for the 987 front end. It uses 2-piece 350mm (or is it 355mm ??) rotors, twinned with the 4-pot calipers form a Ferrari F50 (amongst other applications). In combination with the GT3 MC, RS29s and race-spec fluid, this works quite nicely.
The rear is a bit trickier, I have a 996 GT3 disc and caliper set up, but it required a specially machined hub spacer to put the disc in the right place relative to the caliper mounting points.
I suspect that the rear upgrade is uneconomic and probably overkill (was done by Autofarm for previous owner) - I suspect a nice balance could be achieved by using a different combination of pads between front and rear, retaining the stock rear discs and calipers.
Anyway, the end result is a truly confidence inspiring brake feel - the car will stand on its nose all day long without a hint of fade or a long pedal.
With the TC turned off (as off as it can be) and with the level of grip provided by running Cup 2s on 19s, I don't find the PSM intrudes, and will allow enough of a slip angle to be entertaining.
Thanks Jamie.The rear is a bit trickier, I have a 996 GT3 disc and caliper set up, but it required a specially machined hub spacer to put the disc in the right place relative to the caliper mounting points.
I suspect that the rear upgrade is uneconomic and probably overkill (was done by Autofarm for previous owner) - I suspect a nice balance could be achieved by using a different combination of pads between front and rear, retaining the stock rear discs and calipers.
Anyway, the end result is a truly confidence inspiring brake feel - the car will stand on its nose all day long without a hint of fade or a long pedal.
With the TC turned off (as off as it can be) and with the level of grip provided by running Cup 2s on 19s, I don't find the PSM intrudes, and will allow enough of a slip angle to be entertaining.
May I ask the ball park $$$ on what the front setup cost and where you sourced the parts please ?
I'll PM you if you don't want to put figures in the public forum.
Personally I think it’s irrellevant to get into the hard/firm blah blah debate. The GT3MC in the R works wonders as many have fitted and really like it.
So if you like it and it works for you then who really cares if someone else doesn’t?
My personal CR is fitted with:
Girodisc 2 piece discs all round
Titanium shims
Pagid RS29s all round
GT3 MC
GT3 brake ducts
PF fluid
Having driven it on road and track, I personally think this is a superb setup for the money and won’t beaten till you go for the full on AP monoblock caliper/disc route.
Even vs PCCBs, I prefer the way my brakes feel and perform. The only thing I prefer on the PCCB car is weight advantage from the lighter disc, however I guess most of that is offset by the bigger, heavier 6 pot calipers.
So if you like it and it works for you then who really cares if someone else doesn’t?
My personal CR is fitted with:
Girodisc 2 piece discs all round
Titanium shims
Pagid RS29s all round
GT3 MC
GT3 brake ducts
PF fluid
Having driven it on road and track, I personally think this is a superb setup for the money and won’t beaten till you go for the full on AP monoblock caliper/disc route.
Even vs PCCBs, I prefer the way my brakes feel and perform. The only thing I prefer on the PCCB car is weight advantage from the lighter disc, however I guess most of that is offset by the bigger, heavier 6 pot calipers.
Edited by frayz on Monday 28th January 05:37
frayz said:
Even vs PCCBs, I prefer the way my brakes feel and perform. The only thing I prefer on the PCCB car is weight advantage from the lighter disc, however I guess most of that is offset by the bigger, heavier 6 pot calipers.
Edited by frayz on Monday 28th January 05:37
frayz said:
Personally I think it’s irrellevant to get into the hard/firm blah blah debate. The GT3MC in the R works wonders as many have fitted and really like it.
So if you like it and it works for you then who really cares if someone else doesn’t?
My personal CR is fitted with:
Girodisc 2 piece discs all round
Titanium shims
Pagid RS29s all round
GT3 MC
GT3 brake ducts
PF fluid
Having driven it on road and track, I personally think this is a superb setup for the money and won’t beaten till you go for the full on AP monoblock caliper/disc route.
Even vs PCCBs, I prefer the way my brakes feel and perform. The only thing I prefer on the PCCB car is weight advantage from the lighter disc, however I guess most of that is offset by the bigger, heavier 6 pot calipers.
I really don't think it's the "likers" that have an issue to be brutally honest ... as you've pointed out, many have done the mod and liked the results.So if you like it and it works for you then who really cares if someone else doesn’t?
My personal CR is fitted with:
Girodisc 2 piece discs all round
Titanium shims
Pagid RS29s all round
GT3 MC
GT3 brake ducts
PF fluid
Having driven it on road and track, I personally think this is a superb setup for the money and won’t beaten till you go for the full on AP monoblock caliper/disc route.
Even vs PCCBs, I prefer the way my brakes feel and perform. The only thing I prefer on the PCCB car is weight advantage from the lighter disc, however I guess most of that is offset by the bigger, heavier 6 pot calipers.
I ran AP's on my M3 CSL and a 1M Coupe, they were by far, waaay way better than ANY of the 996/997 GT3/GT3 RS/GT2 steel brakes (and Gen 1 997 PCCB's) I've owned (one you'd learnt how to modulate them) They also tend to be considerably lighter than pretty much any Porsche OE steel brakes, and as for the difference in weight over the hopeless boat anchors BMW elected to foist upon unwitting 1M Coupe and M3 CSL owners ....
ClioTrophy55 said:
Picked up my new R yesterday. Loving it so far. Here's a picture of it from above!
That looks amazing! The correct colour and with the red harness... perfect. Wish mine had harnesses, I know they are probably more bother than they are worth but they are also massively cool. Enjoy the car man!Rsx Boy said:
Thanks Jamie.
May I ask the ball park $$$ on what the front setup cost and where you sourced the parts please ?
I'll PM you if you don't want to put figures in the public forum.
Hi,May I ask the ball park $$$ on what the front setup cost and where you sourced the parts please ?
I'll PM you if you don't want to put figures in the public forum.
Not sure I'm afraid - it was already on the car when I bought it - but I seem to recall seeing the kit offered for c.£1,800 a few years back. I replaced the rotors which were about £250 each from memory....
Slippydiff said:
I really don't think it's the "likers" that have an issue to be brutally honest ... as you've pointed out, many have done the mod and liked the results.
I ran AP's on my M3 CSL and a 1M Coupe, they were by far, waaay way better than ANY of the 996/997 GT3/GT3 RS/GT2 steel brakes (and Gen 1 997 PCCB's) I've owned (one you'd learnt how to modulate them) They also tend to be considerably lighter than pretty much any Porsche OE steel brakes, and as for the difference in weight over the hopeless boat anchors BMW elected to foist upon unwitting 1M Coupe and M3 CSL owners ....
Funny you say that, i ran full set of APs on both my Impreza and Mini GP. Nothing but great feedback for all of the AP kit ive owned in the past.I ran AP's on my M3 CSL and a 1M Coupe, they were by far, waaay way better than ANY of the 996/997 GT3/GT3 RS/GT2 steel brakes (and Gen 1 997 PCCB's) I've owned (one you'd learnt how to modulate them) They also tend to be considerably lighter than pretty much any Porsche OE steel brakes, and as for the difference in weight over the hopeless boat anchors BMW elected to foist upon unwitting 1M Coupe and M3 CSL owners ....
If i wasnt happy with the Rs braking performance, i wouldnt hesitate at fitting AP kit all round to that too
fray said:
The only thing I prefer on the PCCB car is weight advantage from the lighter disc, however I guess most of that is offset by the bigger, heavier 6 pot calipers.
Someone on Rennlist performed a very detailed weight comparison when converting a steel equipped car to PCCB and you are right. The weight savings of the PCCB disks are largely offset by the larger calipers to the point where the difference is measured in grams, not kilograms.Edited by frayz on Monday 28th January 05:37
I have to laugh when people state that the difference in un-sprung mass transforms the steering of these cars. Smoke and mirrors comes to mind.
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