Max power in various modes

[bcr5784]

Porsche911R said:

stability controls cannot defy the laws of physics

My GF spun my car twice on round abouts !

7[/footnote]

Of course not - but by differential braking as they do get pretty close. I do wonder if your GF could get out of the drive in a Peugeot 205GTI - they are vastly less forgiving than the latest hot Fiestas or Meganes (but don't let her see this post!).

[PhantomPH]

Evolved said:

at some of the comments.

Oh, I'm in a Porsche, I simply don't need to race to prove I'm superior.
If I wanted to race, I'd have bought a GTR.

Wow, talk about badge snobbery!

You didn't read my post properly or appreciate the emojis that showed I was aware of trying to make myself feel better somehow.

Not badge snobbery - more like fake badge snobbery to try and make myself feel better! (As I already said in my post)

[Slippydiff]

996GT2 said:

My thoughts exactly. Unless you're trying to pull away from a Daewoo Matiz the reality is you'll need to be going very fast for a long time to put a decent distance between you and someone who's trying to keep up.


So, the moral is, race Matizs all day long, anything else, don't bother.

Oooooooooh, I had lots of fun in both GT2's Gav, well certainly on the straight bits in the Midnight blue car your's was excellent around the twisty bits too mind)

Don't care how quick some chavved up, chipped, turbo mega-nutter bd hot hatch (or van) is, once the afterburners were lit it was arrivederci suckers

Bikes ? well they were a sterner challenge (but soooo slooooow through the twisty bits ) lights blue touch paper and retires ........

But there was a time when I was embarrassed by a Montego Turbo in my first 964 RS

On to other topics. I have to say the Cayman R is proving to be rather entertaining, and certainly more usable, more of the time than the GT2 ever was. It's sheer breadth of usability on any road is proving quite an eye opener. Look forward to seeing you back in one soon .....
Must meet up, not a million miles from you now (not as close as Digs mind ! !)

Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 24th May 20:54

[Beknown]

Never been troubled by a hot hatch but I recently got smoked by the last generation C63 from a rolling start at 70mph, fared even worse against an M4. I was in a 981 S PDK.

That said in both cases I did eventually get past when they hit their limiters

[bcr5784]

Slippydiff said:

Bikes ? well they were a sterner challenge (but soooo slooooow through the twisty bits ) lights blue touch paper and retires ........

Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 24th May 20:54

It depends.... Ultimately grip of bikes is lower, but on narrower windy roads the fact that they NEED much less grip because they can take a greater radius round bends can make the difference. And when it comes to overtaking - completely different league.....

[v8ksn]

bcr5784 said:

Slippydiff said:

Bikes ? well they were a sterner challenge (but soooo slooooow through the twisty bits ) lights blue touch paper and retires ........

Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 24th May 20:54

It depends.... Ultimately grip of bikes is lower, but on narrower windy roads the fact that they NEED much less grip because they can take a greater radius round bends can make the difference. And when it comes to overtaking - completely different league.....

I HATE catching up with a bunch of bikers on a nice twisty road, many a nice drive has been ruined on European trips.

I'm my experience, most bikers fall into the 'foot-on-the-floor-on-the-straights-then-5mph-in-the-corners' category. Massively frustrating!

Sometimes though....sometimes, you catch up with a biker who REALLY knows what they are doing and then it's GREAT fun!

[Slippydiff]

bcr5784 said:

It depends.... Ultimately grip of bikes is lower, but on narrower windy roads the fact that they NEED much less grip because they can take a greater radius round bends can make the difference. And when it comes to overtaking - completely different league.....

Ahhh, didn't take long for us to enter the murky world of semantics along with numerous if's, but's and can's
My days of "racing" with bikes on the road are long since past, but when I was young (er) and reckless, I had many a good-natured dice with out leather-clad friends on two wheels. I think the GT2 surprised quite a few of them

As for experiencing lift-off oversteer in a 1.6 205 GTi. Bin there, done that ..... Using my vast reserves of skill and ability (yeh right) at the tender age of 24 I survived, as did the car, with nothing more than a dent in the bonnet courtesy of a branch sticking out into it (when the car rolled onto its side) a snapped drivers door mirror and a crease in the drivers door) Pure skill that

[v8ksn]

Porsche911R said:

FWD is a skill on it's own most under steer then people lift and you get crazy lift off over steer.

Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 24th May 19:27

In my experience, once a FWD car is understeering a simple lift of the throttle will return traction to the wheels.

If a FWD car is gripping and the outside front tyre is loaded up, if you lift off abruptly then there is a chance the rear will step out but it's easily catchable.

This is all in my own personal experience.

[Slippydiff]

v8ksn said:

I HATE catching up with a bunch of bikers on a nice twisty road, many a nice drive has been ruined on European trips.

I'm my experience, most bikers fall into the 'foot-on-the-floor-on-the-straights-then-5mph-in-the-corners' category. Massively frustrating!

Shsssss, you can't say that !!!

v8ksn said:

Sometimes though....sometimes, you catch up with a biker who REALLY knows what they are doing and then it's GREAT fun!

And when you do, that really is a sight to behold

[pete.g]

Porsche911R said:

bcr5784 said:

I don't think that's true of modern hot hatches - stability controls have put paid to that. Certainly was true of early Golf GTis and Peugeot 205GTIs I know for a fact...

stability controls cannot defy the laws of physics if you lift off mid bend at speed, because racing was where this was coming from ! it's not going to end well if you do nothing.

My GF spun my car twice on round abouts !

The modern hot hatch is very playfull. I am not talking a 118D or basic cars here.

FWD is a skill on it's own most under steer then people lift and you get crazy lift off over steer.

https://youtu.be/yLffeOpQTjg

my post was really in reply to the Cayman who stated he gets GTi the on the bends, when really the GTi is prob faster and has bigger better brakes.

Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 24th May 19:27

And many of the drivers of GTIs use these bigger better brakes to brake too hard, too early and then coast round corners like grannies or ease off at the slightest squirm from either end and let the electronics sort it out. They are nice transport for every day, but don't hold a candle to a Porsche.

[LiamH66]

bcr5784 said:

It depends.... Ultimately grip of bikes is lower, but on narrower windy roads the fact that they NEED much less grip because they can take a greater radius round bends can make the difference. And when it comes to overtaking - completely different league.....

Ultimately, a well ridden bike doesn't hold a candle to a well driven car round a corner, even with the bigger corner radius and even if it's twisty. But like you say, sub-100mph overtaking, not so many cars can compete. Everyone, please try ever so hard not to knock any of them off. I rode them for a very long time, and might do again, and you can feel pretty exposed when you're sitting on the machine rather than sitting in it. Agree with previous posters, the majority of road riders all but stop to go around corners. Finding the limit when you're in unstable equilibrium involves experience and balance if you're going to do it more than once or twice, so you can't blame them.

[bcr5784]

LiamH66 said:

Ultimately, a well ridden bike doesn't hold a candle to a well driven car round a corner, even with the bigger corner radius and even if it's twisty. But like you say, sub-100mph overtaking, not so many cars can compete. Everyone, please try ever so hard not to knock any of them off. I rode them for a very long time, and might do again, and you can feel pretty exposed when you're sitting on the machine rather than sitting in it. Agree with previous posters, the majority of road riders all but stop to go around corners. Finding the limit when you're in unstable equilibrium involves experience and balance if you're going to do it more than once or twice, so you can't blame them.

Debatable. There are any number of videos track battles between cars and bikes (with top class riders on board) - corner speeds of superbikes are often very similar to those of supercars for the reason I state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HXVQoB2caIis one example. On the road you (well at least I) have to leave a much bigger margin because the consequences of hitting a patch of gravel or oil - people who really know what they are doing (and a bit mad) drive much closer to the absolute limit. A ride round the TT circuit on mad Sunday is a bit of an eye opener.

In the wet it's a different story - cars leave bikes for dead.

Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th May 08:57

[Porsche911R]

pete.g said:

And many of the drivers of GTIs use these bigger better brakes to brake too hard, too early and then coast round corners like grannies or ease off at the slightest squirm from either end and let the electronics sort it out. They are nice transport for every day, but don't hold a candle to a Porsche.

that's a driver issue not a Golf issue though, Porsche are trading on their Badge atm imo and shifting Mancans.

[pete.g]

Porsche911R said:

pete.g said:

And many of the drivers of GTIs use these bigger better brakes to brake too hard, too early and then coast round corners like grannies or ease off at the slightest squirm from either end and let the electronics sort it out. They are nice transport for every day, but don't hold a candle to a Porsche.

that's a driver issue not a Golf issue though, Porsche are trading on their Badge atm imo and shifting Mancans.

That's how the VW group works - trading on the badge - Bugatti for the billionaires, Bentley and Lamborghini for the mere millionaires, Porsche for the affluent, then Audi, then VW, then Skoda and Seat.

The Audi S3, Golf R and Seat Cupra 300 are essentially the same car, but badge snobbery allows a hierarchy of pricing, which gullible consumers buy into, thus reinforcing and perpetuating the way the market operates.

When the Boxster was released in the 90s, purists bemoaned the dilution of the brand, the Cayenne was viewed as even worse, and now the diversified range is a source of irritation to some. If Porsche did not sell Macans, they probably wouldn't be able to make many of the other much more driver focussed cars.

The new RS3 has 4wd and 400hp - it will keep up with more or less any car on the road, especially in the wet and if one tailgated me as described by the OP, then I'd be a fool not to just get out of the way and let him get on with it. My first post pointed out that while remaining more or less within the legal limits that I consistently get ahead of hot hatch drivers who don't corner quickly. I have nothing to prove on the road and if someone in a works van is going to be quicker than me, well what of it?

[Porsche911R]

pete.g said:

That's how the VW group works - trading on the badge - Bugatti for the billionaires, Bentley and Lamborghini for the mere millionaires, Porsche for the affluent, then Audi, then VW, then Skoda and Seat.

The Audi S3, Golf R and Seat Cupra 300 are essentially the same car, but badge snobbery allows a hierarchy of pricing, which gullible consumers buy into, thus reinforcing and perpetuating the way the market operates.

When the Boxster was released in the 90s, purists bemoaned the dilution of the brand, the Cayenne was viewed as even worse, and now the diversified range is a source of irritation to some. If Porsche did not sell Macans, they probably wouldn't be able to make many of the other much more driver focussed cars.

The new RS3 has 4wd and 400hp - it will keep up with more or less any car on the road, especially in the wet and if one tailgated me as described by the OP, then I'd be a fool not to just get out of the way and let him get on with it. My first post pointed out that while remaining more or less within the legal limits that I consistently get ahead of hot hatch drivers who don't corner quickly. I have nothing to prove on the road and if someone in a works van is going to be quicker than me, well what of it?

The issue is bar the GT range Porsche don't make drivers car any more, hence selling on Badge alone, you stated a Golf cannot hold a candle to a Porsche, but I disagree, the Golf has better steering than the 981, better brakes, better seats, better build, better DAB, less understeer etc etc I could go on.

I would rather buy another brand prob Audi R8 over any non GT Porsche.

Hence I said Porsche are trading on the Badge to sell cars, they have not been selling SUV long but they outsell 911's.

Have you bought into the Badge and not the drive now ?

The 981 gen 1 EPS is dire, ruins the car for me, the worse feeling Porsche for Steering they have ever made I would say.

you stated you can get by a Golf, now you are saying you have nothing to prove on the road and if someone in a works van is going to be quicker than me, well what of it?

I would say the 987/2 cars punched well above the price and weight and now the 718 range feel entry level and the 911 is king again ;-(

The Cayman was once a good choice, now it feels a cheap choice (even though it's bloody expensive for a 4 pot)

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 25th May 10:51

[PhantomPH]

Porsche911R said:

The issue is bar the GT range Porsche don't make drivers car any more, hence selling on Badge alone, you stated a Golf cannot hold a candle to a Porsche, but I disagree, the Golf has better steering than the 981, better brakes, better seats, better build, better DAB, less understeer etc etc I could go on.
The 981 gen 1 EPS is dire, ruins the car for me, the worse feeling Porsche for Steering they have ever made I would say.

I'm inclined to disagree with some of this, having owned a Mk5 and Mk6 Golf GTI and now a CGTS. (And a 2015 S3 saloon as well, as it happens - for the poster above who says they are the same as the Golf R, so fair for inclusion when comparing Golfs to Caymans).

Golf has better steering: I disagree. My Golfs (and S3) would wash wide with a bucket of understeer if you pushed on and leaned on the chassis. My CGTS just points and goes (my car has PTV which perhaps helps, but the steering feel is great). CGTS wins.

Golf has better brakes: My DSG GTI's brakes seemed to bite really well and haul the car up brilliantly but faded a lot after a couple of heavy uses. The CGTS seems to bite in the same way, but I haven't noticed the fade happening as quickly as I remember in the Golf. Probably evens for me on that one.

Golf has better seats: Nope! All personal preference, but the seats in both of my GTIs gave me chronic back ache and a dose of 'Golf Ball' on many an occasion. The CGTS seats feel great, but take a stload of messing around with to get there. My S3 was probably the nicest seats out of this comparison (with my Merc AMG Line seats being the best I've ever had) S3 wins.

Golf has better build: I'm yet to notice any difference. All cars have had the odd rattle and squeak. All feel much of a muchness...which is to say pretty solid so far! Dead heat on that one again.

Golf has better DAB: Cannot speak for the GTIs, but it's one of the things I miss the most from my S3. The DAB was spot on in that car...and completely missing from my CGTS! Damn you, original owner!! S3 wins.

Golf has less understeer: See above. CGTS wins. Golf understeers like a tt.

Last steering point - I have not driven a standard or S Cayman 981, but the steering in my car feels a million times better than the EPS in the 991 I test drove. The steering in the 991 put me off the car completely (which is why I don't own it!). Try a Gen 1 991 and then you really will see what st steering feels like.

Trading on the badge? I don't disagree when it comes to the Cayenne and Macan, but I think the 718 and 911 are a little more immune from that....for now.

Edited by PhantomPH on Thursday 25th May 11:26

[v8ksn]

Porsche911R said:

Porsche are trading on their Badge atm imo and shifting Mancans

Brilliant typo

[WCZ]

part ex for a gtr or a turbo s if you want to keep it porsche

[Porsche911R]

mk5 and 6 golfs were st also lol

I am hot hatch fan, but I got out of them when nothing could match the Clio Trophy I had,

All Hot hatch's went all a bit to st, ie the mk5 and 6 golfs !!! along with Renult, Ford etc
Audi are a bit poor for the driver, I just Sold my S1 only had it 2 months, more a milfs car.

but the new bread of Hatch is king again and I am back In a Hot hatch, all be it a Golf ClubSport.

It has 340MM brakes, a real diff, Recaro buckets, better build, better steering feel, etc etc. prob laps quicker than any non GT 981.

you cannot really put a mk5 golf vs a 981 GTS, but you can a Golf Clubsport and it's still 1/2 the price.

[PhantomPH]

The Mk6 was a bit better than the Mk5, but I agree that the HH game has moved on quite a bit since then.

I'm really not a 'hot hatch' guy, is the truth. I think I owned them for the power/practicality ratio more than the desire to own them...if that makes sense?

My CGTS is the first time I've been back in a used car for a long time and I feel like my money has gone a lot further than it would have if I had bought a new TTRS or RS3 Saloon, like I was considering. (Actually, I had an order in for a new Range Rover Sport, but that's a whole other lifestyle choice, ha ha! Cancelled that order and had made the conscious decision to get the CGTS by the next morning).

If I was working to a smaller budget, I would love to see Mazda do another RX8 - and a few other manufacturers to follow suit. I'd choose a 'slower' modern RX8 over any hot hatch, tbh.

I desperately try and tell myself I've grown out of the 'my car is faster than your car' antics as described in this thread (and that was part of the motivation for the RRS order - be a little more sensible), but like most people I do lapse from time to time..and I certainly don't drive the fastest car on the road these days so it's always going to be a bit ego-checking.