The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!

The 718 GT4 might be arriving sooner than you think!

Author
Discussion

av185

18,433 posts

126 months

Monday 10th June 2019
quotequote all
Taffy66 said:
av185 said:
Ceramics unecessary on the GT4 and Spyder imo.

Expensive at c£6500 relative to otr cost and same price as GT3 brakes.

That is why the market values a ceramic braked 981 same as steels.

May be possible to get slight uplift on the residual value over the costed option for the first flipped 718 cars but after that price parity is likely once more.
I has the full fat 410mm/390mm F/R on my GT4 and they cost me a bargain £4970 not the £6.5K as on the GT3.On my Spyder i have the steels which are the upgraded 991 Carrera big reds and are plenty for the car..The PCCBs on the Spyder were not the full fat GT3 ones.
Neither car needs the PCCBs however they were awesome on the GT4..Will i spec them on the 718 GT4/Spyder depends on the price basically as they're not a 'must have' but a 'nice to have'.
It's interesting how the market changed from the 991.1 GT3 to the 991.2 GT3 for brakes.

My gen 1 had steels which I liked and whilst ceramics braked cars made a premium over steels this was nowhere near the huge premium the gens 2 make over the equivalent steel braked cars similar to the RS which is obviously down to the performance gains of the car and greater advantages of less unsprung weight etc. A steel braked gen 2 GT3 is a hard sell and is worth considerably less than the equivalent ceramic braked car.

This aspect MAY filter down to the 718 GT4 especially IF it has the 4.0 albeit detuned and strangled heavily promoted GT3 engine as opposed to the powerkitted 3.8. So in some ways ceramics may be seen as a better spec choice and less of an.overpriced extra on the 718 as compared to the 981.

My only other reservation with ceramics on a GT4 is that Caymans seem more prone to stone trapping between disc and caliper than 911s which as we all know can be terminal for rotors and at £4k a pop bloody expensive too. This happened to me three times and the same wheel...nearside rear but as my GT4 has steels it was not an issue.

Edited by av185 on Monday 10th June 22:25


Edited by av185 on Monday 10th June 22:27

isaldiri

18,412 posts

167 months

Monday 10th June 2019
quotequote all
Taffy66 said:
I has the full fat 410mm/390mm F/R on my GT4 and they cost me a bargain £4970 not the £6.5K as on the GT3.

The PCCBs on the Spyder were not the full fat GT3 ones.
Taffy, I don't believe that's the case. Ceramics on the entire Porsche range in the 9X1 and later are the same whether it's a c2, gt4, 2rs or even 918 afaik.

Twinfan

10,125 posts

103 months

Monday 10th June 2019
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
Taffy, I don't believe that's the case. Ceramics on the entire Porsche range in the 9X1 and later are the same whether it's a c2, gt4, 2rs or even 918 afaik.
My understanding is that you're both right. Caysters get smaller PCCBs than 911s unless it's a 981 GT4, at least I think that's right...

isaldiri

18,412 posts

167 months

Monday 10th June 2019
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
My understanding is that you're both right. Caysters get smaller PCCBs than 911s unless it's a 981 GT4, at least I think that's right...
Ah ok I didn't realise that. Oops. I am reasonably certain the 991s have the 410/390 ceramics but didn't realise the 981 in non gt4 form had something different. paperbag

Taffy66

5,964 posts

101 months

Monday 10th June 2019
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
Ah ok I didn't realise that. Oops. I am reasonably certain the 991s have the 410/390 ceramics but didn't realise the 981 in non gt4 form had something different. paperbag
IIRC the GT4 was the only Cayster to have the big 918 PCCBs and the others including the 981 Spyder had the smaller ones..The 991.1 non GT models had the same smaller PCCBs as the Caysters..Things changed with the introduction of the 991.2 where all 991s were offered with the 918s..

TDT

4,910 posts

118 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
gtsralph said:
rkwm1 said:
Folding mirrors?
The Sports Design Mirrors can be folded up manually by hand.

TDT

4,910 posts

118 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
av185 said:
This aspect MAY filter down to the 718 GT4 especially IF it has the 4.0 albeit detuned and strangled heavily promoted GT3 engine as opposed to the powerkitted 3.8. So in some ways ceramics may be seen as a better spec choice and less of an.overpriced extra on the 718 as compared to the 981.
Like i said - PCCB will be essential for flipper spec.

GT4RS

4,395 posts

196 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
TDT said:
av185 said:
This aspect MAY filter down to the 718 GT4 especially IF it has the 4.0 albeit detuned and strangled heavily promoted GT3 engine as opposed to the powerkitted 3.8. So in some ways ceramics may be seen as a better spec choice and less of an.overpriced extra on the 718 as compared to the 981.
Like i said - PCCB will be essential for flipper spec.
Porsche pccb brakes are a big no no in my mind, far to expensive to change when things go wrong. The used market premium they used to carry on both a used gt3 and a used gt4 is slowly drifting away as well.

GT4RS

4,395 posts

196 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
TDT said:
gtsralph said:
rkwm1 said:
Folding mirrors?
The Sports Design Mirrors can be folded up manually by hand.
From memory sports design mirrors can’t fold up electrically.

Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
GT4RS said:
Porsche pccb brakes are a big no no in my mind, far to expensive to change when things go wrong. The used market premium they used to carry on both a used gt3 and a used gt4 is slowly drifting away as well.
seems the same gap to me on Gt3's but really you need PCCB on the GT3 to even sell it.

hunter 66

3,888 posts

219 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
Haha , but not to use it hard ...where steels are preferred

Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
hunter 66 said:
Haha , but not to use it hard ...where steels are preferred
why not, they take it no issue ? Apollo uses his car hard on track no issues with 40 days track use.

It's not like the 997 items. as the new OEM steels are SO expensive to replace, unlike the 997 steels, the cost to use as the steels wear much fast is not that far a part as the oem steels are made of cheese.

After market steels are the cheapest use option I would say, but PCCB may be the new cheapest now Sitcom are back working no issue for refurbs after past issues.

So all the cost might be about the same, but you get all the plus points with ceramic.

for road use PCCB will be ok for the life of the car.

hunter 66

3,888 posts

219 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
Agree they are fine ,and Apollo as well as 993rsr use them a lot on track , in fact they are great. I have now driven both on track and do prefer the feel of the steel , so just a personal preference .. and happy to have specced them .
Yes in the UK though it is expected ( not in Eu ) and most RS will never do much milage anyway ... so steels will last as well ..

Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
hunter 66 said:
Agree they are fine ,and Apollo as well as 993rsr use them a lot on track , in fact they are great. I have now driven both on track and do prefer the feel of the steel , so just a personal preference .. and happy to have specced them .
Yes in the UK though it is expected ( not in Eu ) and most RS will never do much milage anyway ... so steels will last as well ..
I just like the upsides as my car lives outside my hubs and disks never go rusty, zero pad stick and they never look bad.

I am a steel fan for track I would say, but not with the cost of oem units now. 997 disks were £100 new GT3 steels are eye watering costs.

I think now you can refurb CCD again, PPCB is the best choice as it's £4k for 4 to be done.

av185

18,433 posts

126 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
GT4RS said:
Porsche pccb brakes are a big no no in my mind, far to expensive to change when things go wrong. The used market premium they used to carry on both a used gt3 and a used gt4 is slowly drifting away as well.
Incorrect.

As I said in my previous post ceramic braked GT4s do not carry a premium over steel braked cars so anyone desperate for ceramics can get a bargain.

Used 991.1 GT3s generally sell ok with steels and the ceramic braked cars generally make slightly excess of the option cost £ new compared to steels plus a clubsport premium £.

The market is totally different for the 991.2 GT3 due principally due to the RS performance and as 911R correctly points most buyers want ceramics and steel braked cars are both a hard sell and command significantly less money as is also the case with the 991 GT3 RS.

jcosh

1,172 posts

231 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
This is by no means scientific but here goes. By GT4 has ceramics and I love them. My friends 991.2 has steels. Both cars have done a very similar mileage and we have both driven on the same driving tours and track days. In other words the cars have been subjected to pretty much the same usage. Looking at both cars post Silverstone track day last week and we noted that his front pads are almost fully worn whereas mine are hardly worn at all. The last time my GT4 was in for service work they reported that the brakes were less than 5% worn at 9000 miles.

I realise that are not the same cars and one is more powerful but it's an interesting observation.

However, there is only one down side to PCCB's on 991 GT3, 991 GT2RS and GT4, they are too big! Due to the front disc size the calliper sits only a couple of millimetres from the inside face of the wheel. This means it is very easy for sone to get trapped between the calliper and the wheel, which can then score the wheel. It virtually impossible to avoid unless you only drive on clean roads etc. I once saw and brand new 991 GT3RS at my OPC, which hadn't even been delivered to its owner and was sat in the show room on magnesium wheels. One of the front wheels was scored and it was yet to be driven on the road by the owner. Whilst at Silverstone last week, a chap had new GT3RS, I explained the problem, which he hadn't considered previously, and then he looked around his car and discovered wheel scoring on his near side front wheel. He had just taken delivery a few days before.

I have tried to mention this to my OPC as a design fault, but they pretty much laughed me out of the door. Saying it is a wear and tare situation. I don't agree.

993rsr

3,424 posts

248 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
hunter 66 said:
Haha , but not to use it hard ...where steels are preferred
why not, they take it no issue ? Apollo uses his car hard on track no issues with 40 days track use.

It's not like the 997 items. as the new OEM steels are SO expensive to replace, unlike the 997 steels, the cost to use as the steels wear much fast is not that far a part as the oem steels are made of cheese.

After market steels are the cheapest use option I would say, but PCCB may be the new cheapest now Sitcom are back working no issue for refurbs after past issues.

So all the cost might be about the same, but you get all the plus points with ceramic.

for road use PCCB will be ok for the life of the car.
Road use is fine, even the original iteration of SGL rotors from the 996GT2 /Turbo S/GT3 will be no issue for the road.

If you look at some users who really, really use their cars (like Trakcar/Peter on Rennlist) their OEM steel rotors are very durable even compared to PCCB (and these guys are doing 30-40 days a year) in his 991 GT3 RS 1 maybe 120+ days total.

My 991 PCCB were significantly worn after about 35 track days, the reality is with extensive use even the new versions will wear out. Mine were replaced under warranty due to noisy bobbins (you'll see the disc/bell mounting fittings has changed from Gen 1 991 GT3 to Gen 2) and exhibited notable wear at that point. I ran Endless Pads (endless pads still had plenty of go in them).

Now if all you are worried about is not having rusty rotors like you prefer, that's fine (big cost for this benefit ).

For extensive use they are still an expensive wear item, and whilst the current refurb company appears to be able to do them, it's not a turn key rapid solution and people still have issues with Rebrake.

Obviously you can go for System ST which are a much more durable product and excellent reputation(I dipped my toe in the water with them early on and they had big issues with pad bedding) and if you want the advantages of the reduction in unsprung weight and do lots of track days this is the most cost effective option.

There are lots of facts out there for one to find, especially on Rennlist where there is the empirical data out there if one looks:

Here's some data on the current variant PCCB wear:



Edited by 993rsr on Tuesday 11th June 11:35

nudgerwilliams

247 posts

180 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
My GT4 has just had new front steel discs at 9.5k miles, 7 or 8 track days, and about 15 laps of the Ring. £2.2k. I steered clear of ceramics when I specced the car because of worries about replacement costs given I was intending to use it on track, but the steels aren't working out to be cheap.

I suspect aftermarket steels are the most cost-effective option, but then that gives all the warranty issues.

David

993rsr

3,424 posts

248 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
nudgerwilliams said:
My GT4 has just had new front steel discs at 9.5k miles, 7 or 8 track days, and about 15 laps of the Ring. £2.2k. I steered clear of ceramics when I specced the car because of worries about replacement costs given I was intending to use it on track, but the steels aren't working out to be cheap.

I suspect aftermarket steels are the most cost-effective option, but then that gives all the warranty issues.

David
Was that at an OPC and what was the reason for changing ie length of cracks propagating from the holes?

Cheers

nudgerwilliams

247 posts

180 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
993rsr said:
nudgerwilliams said:
My GT4 has just had new front steel discs at 9.5k miles, 7 or 8 track days, and about 15 laps of the Ring. £2.2k. I steered clear of ceramics when I specced the car because of worries about replacement costs given I was intending to use it on track, but the steels aren't working out to be cheap.

I suspect aftermarket steels are the most cost-effective option, but then that gives all the warranty issues.

David
Was that at an OPC and what was the reason for changing ie length of cracks propagating from the holes?

Cheers
OPC. Reason was crack length from the cooling holes. Indy said I could run them a bit longer, and their cost to replace was £2k. I decided to replace so I could get the extended warranty. Whether that turns out to be a good trade, time will tell.