991.1 GT3-RS: GOOD TIME TO BUY...??

[Swimfinz]

Hi all..... As a current owner of a GT4, I’ve been watching the market closely over the past couple of years with a view to moving up the “Porsche GT ladder”.... As I’ve never been fortunate/butt sucking enough, I very much doubt a spanky new GT car allocation will come my way anytime soon, so I’ve resigned myself to the “used” GT car buying experience.... My GT4 was a used purchase, bought at at a time when I felt these beauties were “plateauing out” a little at not hugely over list, and the right car came along at the right time....

Now I find myself in much the same position regarding the 991.1 GT3 & 3RS..... With the recent releases of the 2nd Gen models of both GT cars, I’ve been watching the market closely and deciding when best to “make the jump”..... I’m not willing to pay £40k overs for the new GT3, so am looking primarily at both the 1st Gen GT3 and the 3RS.... My question to all of you forum experts— who generally seem to have a close finger on the pulse of all things Porsche, and whom I have huge respect for in terms of both passion and knowledge— is twofold....

First— Do you think either car (GT3 or GT3RS) has much further to fall, especially with summer just around the corner...!!

Second— Which would be the better long-term investment....?? I know that these cars are there to be “driven” and— 25k heavenly miles into my GT4— I’m most certainly a proponent of this philosophy.....!! But.... I’m also not made of money (I know, I know: 1st World problems..!!), and would like the best “return” for my investment a few years down the line, when my children will most likely inherit the car themselves....!!

To those who say “get the car you enjoy the most”, I would answer that I have driven both, and completely fallen for both during my time behind the wheel....!! This makes the decision that bit more difficult.... I also can— just about— afford either, despite the RS being a bit of a “push”.....!! I drive on both track and road 50:50, so that also doesn’t make the decision any easier...!! Ultimately, I’m looking for views as to which car— in the current market— is the best “value for money”......

Apologies for the mega-long post— but it’s been a mega-long decision making process...!! And I feel it’s time I heard some well respected views of owners/experts, other than those spouted by the motoring press...!!

Opinions on a postcard please...?!?

Dave

[Mitch911]

I would go for the RS. More smiles and more special. The PDK-only, Gen 1 GT3 will not be loved in the future; PDK only, iffy engine reputation, not as special as what came before or after. Unless you want it as a daily, in which case its perfect.

Of course you should buy a 997 or 996 variant but that is another can of worms

[Porsche911R]

I would avoid the 991.1 GT3, even at the RS day , 2 991.1 GT3 had engine issues I saw.

the cars 3 years old and still at overs, they seem poor value to me, try selling those closer to the 10 years engine warranty limit and lower miles ones are still £140k !!

RS def a shout if you will not miss the manual , or a 997.2 GT3 RS now they have dropped a bit.

Not a new RS fan really as they are a bit daft for road use and PDK ! I only buy manuals, but look nice in the garage and at meets :-)

I would be more tempted in a 430BHP GT4 with a few mods.

as for investments (as you dare to say that word) they will all go down, so not good investments bar maybe the 997.2 RS.

I think if I were willing to pay overs for a RS why not look at clubsports 991.2 GT3's at £40k over ! it's a better car at the same overs as a RS and more usable on the road, plus you get last of the Manual NA GT3's(we think) so might keep better value than the 991.1 RS and 991.1 GT3 cost to own.

prices are about cost to own not cost to buy and you end up with a brand new car with 3 years warranty and lets hope less engine issues.

Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 13th March 09:14

[Cheib]

Swimfinz said:

First— Do you think either car (GT3 or GT3RS) has much further to fall, especially with summer just around the corner...!!

I spent some time at one of the Porsche specialist dealers last week who said the .1 RS is "falling week by week" at the moment. They'd just sold one and admitted they were lucky to have sold it at the price they got.

The fact 4 of the 5 cheapest cars (i.e. the ones listed under £190k on PH) are with OPC's would in my mind indicate they're all looking to sell their cars pronto. OPC's regardless of mileage are not normally the cheapest for any car.

Oh and if you put 25k miles on an RS you'll get a proper kick in the balls when you come to sell it. On a GT4 that might cost you £10k or £15k in terms of a lower selling price ? I think on a GT3 RS it would sadly cost you a lot more than that.

Edited by Cheib on Tuesday 13th March 09:44

[r1flyguy1]

Swimfinz said:

I’m not willing to pay £40k overs for the new GT3, so am looking primarily at both the 1st Gen GT3 and the 3RS....
Dave

Isnt this what you will be doing for a ‘used RS’ though? I specced a 991.2 GT3RS and with everything i wanted it was £160k. Used ones on the OPC website are £30-£50k over that.

If i had a chance of a new RS I would certainly buy one but as I’m like you and the £230k ive spent over last 4 years (albeit on 3 used OPC cars) is not good enough for them, then i’ll stick with my current 991.1 TurboS which may well be the last Porsche I ever buy.

[Swimfinz]

Cheers for the replies thus far guys.....

Yes— I’m put off the 991.1 GT3 because of the engine “issues” and, like 911R says, when the 10 yr engine warranty comes to an end these cars may be a hard sell....!!

I’m also a manual guy, and will miss this the most I think on a PDK car— however slick the new auto box may be..... I’ve loooked at paying overs for a 2nd Gen manual GT3, but the least I’m going to be paying is around £40k overs atm.... In contrast, there are 2 pretty highly specced 3RSs currently on Pistonheads (one even at an OPC...!!) currently going for around the £180k mark— a lot closer to original list price.... It wasn’t long ago that these would have been priced nearer the £200k mark....!!

And yes 911R, you’re totally right regarding the “investment” side of things— they will all fall— in fact, I NEVER buy cars as investments because I love to drive them too much, so rack up the miles far too much to be a successful “speculator”.... However, I guess I just want to put my money where it’s likely to lose the least in the future, especially as it’s most likely my children who will eventually “inherit” my cars...!!

[Swimfinz]

Porsche911R said:

I would be more tempted in a 430BHP GT4 with a few mods.

Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 13th March 09:14

This may well be the route i go down tbh.... My biggest concern with this one is losing the Porsche Warranty, which is defo one of the better Warranty packages out there....!! Hence trying to find a “stock” GT Porsche with the high-revving, shorter gearing set-up that the GT4 should have always had from the outset....!! Both the GT3 and GT3RS seem to fit the bill, although at great cost...!!

[Purple Man]

I was at the RS track day and did not see any GT3 gen 1 cars with engine trouble?
They are both good cars and you will enjoy going on the track in either.
The engine problems that the Gen 1 GT3 had, have been resolved and your engine is under warranty for ten years, which includes a new engine being fitted. GT3 RS cars do not have a ten year engine warranty, so this is a plus for the GT3!
When your car is out of warranty it will be silly not to pay for a Porsche Warranty approx £1'400 per year.
My opinion is that Gen 1 GT3 cars at the 125K mark are good value for money. I feel the GT3RS cars will come down a bit more in price and should be around the 175K mark.
I have driven them both and they are two great cars, there is no wrong decision to be made with these two.
Get it bought and enjoy the summer!!

[Purple Man]

I was at the RS track day and did not see any GT3 gen 1 cars with engine trouble?
They are both good cars and you will enjoy going on the track in either.
The engine problems that the Gen 1 GT3 had, have been resolved and your engine is under warranty for ten years, which includes a new engine being fitted. GT3 RS cars do not have a ten year engine warranty, so this is a plus for the GT3!
When your car is out of warranty it will be silly not to pay for a Porsche Warranty approx £1'400 per year.
My opinion is that Gen 1 GT3 cars at the 125K mark are good value for money. I feel the GT3RS cars will come down a bit more in price and should be around the 175K mark.
I have driven them both and they are two great cars, there is no wrong decision to be made with these two.
Get it bought and enjoy the summer!!

[v8ksn]

991.1 GT3 has engine issues. Even though you can now get an extended warranty, the worry is still there. If it was below list with a new engine it would be a better bet.

991.1 RS Great car but it has been superseded by the 991.2 RS. By that I mean that I cant see anything on the .1 RS that appeals to me over the .2 RS.

If your budget stretches to a 991.1 RS get a 991.2 GT3 Touring (with the manual gearbox) Not only is it a more involving car to drive (subjective opinion of course) it will retain a greater portion of its value that either of the 991.1 variants for the reasons stated above.

[Swimfinz]

v8ksn said:

If your budget stretches to a 991.1 RS get a 991.2 GT3 Touring (with the manual gearbox) Not only is it a more involving car to drive (subjective opinion of course) it will retain a greater portion of its value that either of the 991.1 variants for the reasons stated above.

^^^ Yes— I tend to agree with this, and am on the lookout....!! Trouble is finding one...!! I guess the “Touring Pack” will make up only a small percentage of the Gen2 GT3s, and then finding one with manual transmission as well feels like searching for the proverbial “needle in a haystack”....!! Hopefully something will pop up soon, preferably before winter hits...!!

[v8ksn]

Swimfinz said:

^^^ Yes— I tend to agree with this, and am on the lookout....!! Trouble is finding one...!! I guess the “Touring Pack” will make up only a small percentage of the Gen2 GT3s, and then finding one with manual transmission as well feels like searching for the proverbial “needle in a haystack”....!! Hopefully something will pop up soon, preferably before winter hits...!!

If I were you I would give JZM Porsche a ring and ask them to source you one. They WILL be able to find you one i'm sure.

Also, it would be a good idea to spend a morning ringing round the OPC dealerships and telling them you are looking for one and what your budget is.

You are in an enviable position, I wouldnt settle for anything less that the actual car you want.

[Porsche911R]

Purple Man said:

I was at the RS track day and did not see any GT3 gen 1 cars with engine trouble?

I did., so it is what it is.

[RT964]

v8ksn said:

991.1 GT3 has engine issues. Even though you can now get an extended warranty, the worry is still there. If it was below list with a new engine it would be a better bet.

991.1 RS Great car but it has been superseded by the 991.2 RS. By that I mean that I cant see anything on the .1 RS that appeals to me over the .2 RS.

If your budget stretches to a 991.1 RS get a 991.2 GT3 Touring (with the manual gearbox) Not only is it a more involving car to drive (subjective opinion of course) it will retain a greater portion of its value that either of the 991.1 variants for the reasons stated above.

Yes, the Gen 1 has "engine issues" however it's a case of asking the question to the seller on what the situation is with the engine. I know of at least one Gen 1 GT3 that's at an OPC that has already got the new engine in it, so you have the benefit of the balance of the 10 year warranty and a new engine !

Having said that, only you can make a decision on whether you want manual or PDK, as that will have the most influence on which cars fit the bill.

[v8ksn]

RT964 said:

Yes, the Gen 1 has "engine issues" however it's a case of asking the question to the seller on what the situation is with the engine. I know of at least one Gen 1 GT3 that's at an OPC that has already got the new engine in it, so you have the benefit of the balance of the 10 year warranty and a new engine !

Having said that, only you can make a decision on whether you want manual or PDK, as that will have the most influence on which cars fit the bill.

The issue is that the replacement engines are also prone to failure. There are some people who have posted on this forum that they are on their 2nd or 3rd replacement engine

10 year warranty or not, why take the risk when you dont have to?

[hornbaek]

[quote=v8ksn]


991.1 RS Great car but it has been superseded by the 991.2 RS. By that I mean that I cant see anything on the .1 RS that appeals to me over the .2 RS.

You would kind of expect that of a newer model would you not ? The only appeal is availability and price.

I have a couple of RS' both manual and PDK and if I went manual I would always go for the 997 GT3 RS. I would not wtite off the PDK on the newer car. It suits the car and it is a magnifcient piece of kit.

The only advice i would give to the poster is, that if he intends to use the car on both street and track then the GT3 is the more allround car. The GT3 RS is too hardcore as an everyday car in my opinion ( and the wing makes you look like a nob).

[RT964]

v8ksn said:

The issue is that the replacement engines are also prone to failure. There are some people who have posted on this forum that they are on their 2nd or 3rd replacement engine

10 year warranty or not, why take the risk when you dont have to?

That's a very fair point. I saw that too whilst I've been considering a GT3 and my follow on question that I never got a straight answer to was what percentage of the market is actually represented by these 2nd/3rd replacement engine scenarios ? Of the research I did, I think there were only a couple of people that were affected out of all the market (in the main, it seemed to be someone had heard from someone who had read about someone who had had multiple replacement engines) so it was very difficult to get an accurate answer.

Mind you, if engine risk is key, then probably paying overs for a Gen 2 GT3 or Gen 1 GT3 RS would be a "safer" bet (ignoring the depreciation risk). Such first world problems we have to grapple with

[seawise]

Swimfinz said:

^^^ Yes— I tend to agree with this, and am on the lookout....!! Trouble is finding one...!! I guess the “Touring Pack” will make up only a small percentage of the Gen2 GT3s, and then finding one with manual transmission as well feels like searching for the proverbial “needle in a haystack”....!! Hopefully something will pop up soon, preferably before winter hits...!!

991.2 GT3 with 'touring package' is only available with the 6 speed manual transmission. mine is being built this week (actually came forward, which is nice). I believe Tom Hartley junior might have a car to sell, but goodness knows how much of a premium will be required.

[blackmamba]

Certainly feels like 991.1 GT cars of all types are coming down in price. My OPC said they have had a few cars coming in regularly as people p/x into 991.2 versions. I suspect that this will continue into the summer when U.K. deliveries slow down and people are (hopefully) our driving them.

The 991.2 GT3s feel expensive at £175k which is where they seem too be selling. I am sure these will settle by the end of the year once the novelty has worn off. Tom Hartley had a Touring for sale at close to £200k and it has been sold. They said they have a couple more cars coming in this month and potentially another Touring.

Question is - do you want to pay up for one now so you can use over the summer? I wouldn’t. Plenty of fun to be had with other cars at more sensible money and look again in 6 months when I think prices will be usefully lower.

[Cheib]

I think the 991.1 GT3 is possibly already pricing in the engine issues...I think it's quite reasonably priced compared to other 911's you can buy. 997.2 GT3 CS pretty much the same price as a 991.1 pretty much now. Although a lot less 997's made.