GT4 RS/ Spyder RS Experiences, Driving and Technical
Discussion
A few minor tweaks applied:
Braided Lines,
Pagid RSL29 Pads and uprated Brake fluid.
Switched from Dunlop Race Maxx 2 (which i think were finished) to Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2.
Really good to fully stretch the legs of the 4RS on this big boy circuit. This is where the extra powertrain performance makes itself very apparent.
On a smooth circuit the stock suspension works well enough - certainly I didn’t think it was a hinderance on that particular day - due the nature of the day (general pace, experience level and traffic).
Maybe could have a touch more spring rate in the front for balance but as there are no bumps or undulations to contend with - ride quality is not an issue - PASM in Sport chassis mode.
But what DO you need there is more geometry adjustment range to get more camber and cornering grip from the tyre.
I tend to try to drive to what I have and not over drive the car or tyres, as it’s just wasteful and there are no prizes - but its very clear for a GP circuit my current geo isn’t enough. I already know this as I’m running a far less aggressive setup than my previous car - but it’s good to go through the process of learning.
Minor update to my Garmin Catalyst mounting position and also a revision to the Go Pro setup to give a rear view and make the videos a bit more interesting.
PRO5T said:
Really interesting watch T, I didn't watch all the way but you seem to wind off a bit of lock just before/at corner apex-does it have a bit more front end than you expect or does the rear unsettle requiring a little correction?
Car sounds amazing!
Car sounds amazing!
jackwood said:
Thanks for posting, T! Nice laps!
As Prost said, quite a bit of steering adjustment on turn in. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
As Prost said, quite a bit of steering adjustment on turn in. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
ChrisW. said:
Very good to see this and great to see your pace 
You were around 5mph faster than I was at the braking point at the end of the three main straights ... in my 991.2 GT3RS with passenger ... I was pulling around 0.1g more in the corners without but not looking at the speedo !!
A very useful video My question is this. There are places where you could take a slightly wider smoother line and hustle the car less ... but you would be travelling a little further and would this ultimately save you time ... or not ? Might it save you tyres ??
Thanks for the comments and feedback gents. Definitely a bit of reacquaintance going on with respect to finding my way around Silverstone again after not driving there for a couple of years. Not much intensity in these laps - quite a lot of one-handed steering, waiting nicely to go through.You were around 5mph faster than I was at the braking point at the end of the three main straights ... in my 991.2 GT3RS with passenger ... I was pulling around 0.1g more in the corners without but not looking at the speedo !!
A very useful video
My question is this. There are places where you could take a slightly wider smoother line and hustle the car less ... but you would be travelling a little further and would this ultimately save you time ... or not ? Might it save you tyres ??For the adjustment of the steering on turn-in - I think I'm just trying to feel the front end and also trying to get turn in without just leaning on and over the shoulder of the tyre when I know I don't have enough camber on to really support what I want to do. I don't want to just hold on stubbornly with an arm full of lock and just plough on into understeer, so I do some turning and then opening to just gain grip back. No point killing tyres fits it just not there.
The other thing I might be thinking of is getting the lock off quicker so that I can get back on the power sooner - as with the current setup I know I am down on corner speed vs what it really should be with a proper set up.
Either way this trait should probably disappear over time either as I get more used to the car or circuit.
For the line - I have become quite the fan of the tight line where I can carry speed and save meters - it works well at many of the tighter courses that I usually do - but its definitely true that for somewhere like Silverstone or Spa I could open up some of the corners some more and gain a lot more speed - I'm due another visit soon - so will be able to explore and experiment with this a bit more.
jackwood said:
How were the RSL29 s and fluid etc? Mine are ordered and booked in for fitting and geo.
Yep braking was great - everything working well. No issues - although I wasn't hammering it as it wasn't full kill pace.
My other solution is in final stage - but with the current set up, I quite like the feel and it's robust and worry free.
LiamH66 said:
Great video Tyrone, really enjoyed what I've watched so far. I find it a little surreal to think the latest GT3 RS has similar power and weight to our cars, and then see how they just pull away from us into and out of corners. Glad it's not just me, although I'd be pretty proud of myself if I'm driving anything like as tidily as you.
Thanks Liam. A well driven 992 3RS is a really different category of performance. So much more tyre contact patch and mechanical grip and then they have the massive downforce in the high speed. If you try to chase a well driven one into corner you may well find yourself in very deep water without a lifejacket or whistle! unless you quickly recognise your entry speeds. Very easy to get drawn in, as on the straights 4RS can keep them more than honest - but 992 3RS can really haul down on the braking.
Fun fact - that particular car also had the new Manthey Semi Active Dampers on it.
LiamH66 said:
Whose braided brake lines did you go for? I've discussed with Matt at Suspension Secrets, who initially said Manthey do a good braided line kit. I don't think I'm being tight in thinking £534 for a set of brake hoses is a bit excessive.
I managed to get a set of the Pre-Porsche Tequipment Tax Manthey sets for something like £175 + VAT - 718/991 compatible.PM me if you want to know where from.
For 992 GT I think it is actually a different part that attaches differently to the chassis mounted hard lines? - but now Porsche charge the same amount for both the 992 and 718/991 versions even though they are different? - I wouldn't be surprised - Profit!
cdixon said:
Nice video T, Great to meet you also. Was a great day, and really enjoyed it. The new geo on my car has made a massive difference, car feels more pointy, and I can lean on it harder. As Liam mentioned, brakes feel a bit spongy with hard left foot braking, so next job is lines and fluid, maybe pads.
Lovely to meet you also.Pads and Lines are a must IMO - especially if doing any track work.
I saw this when it came out last week.
He migrated from 'maybe 5% different' to '10-15% different' lol. The technical spec suggests the difference is actually greater - but this maybe translates different in real life - at least at the speeds they were doing anyway - that is to say - road legal speeds.
But there isn't anything here that we don't already know:
GT4 RS is factory balanced towards track work but can do fun roads with the right set up.
Spyder RS is factory balanced towards for road work but could do some fun track with the right set up.
He migrated from 'maybe 5% different' to '10-15% different' lol. The technical spec suggests the difference is actually greater - but this maybe translates different in real life - at least at the speeds they were doing anyway - that is to say - road legal speeds.
But there isn't anything here that we don't already know:
GT4 RS is factory balanced towards track work but can do fun roads with the right set up.
Spyder RS is factory balanced towards for road work but could do some fun track with the right set up.
Stiff is just a general simple word that people use - but digging deep it's much more nuanced than that.
The issue from the factory with the 4RS down a bumpy road is really down to front-rear ride frequency and the damping particularly at the rear (As a side effect of the spring rate choosen to support df and tyre grip - Cup 2 R)
The car isn't stiff per se - but the responses can be quite sharp - so you need to be focused on a quick paced drive to catch the car if/when it skips or bucks.
It can be toned down with geo and also with correct tyre choice and also it mellows with miles - But whilst you have that standard hardware in there, its not going to flow at high speed like a GT4/718 Spyder would if you are expecting that.
Contributing to that is also the drivetrain and delivery of power... the 9A2EVO from the GT4/Spyder does have a more immediate initial pull from low revs and noise.. like a good road car engine should - and it pulls well to the redline without a crazy amount of fuss.
The 4RS/SRS drivetrain is a much more excitable and really has multiple distinct characters between sane and bats
t lol.
It's definitely a sense of occasion car - you need to be in the mood for it - where as a 718 GT4 just molds around you with minimal fuss... impressively going about its business without too much drama. 718 GT4/Spyder really are an under-appreciated sweet spot.
The 4RS pushes the boundaries further - so you move out of a sweet spot of all parameters and more into the extremes - but if you want more drama and sense of occasion and theatrics and ultimate performance - 4RS delivers in bucket loads.
The issue from the factory with the 4RS down a bumpy road is really down to front-rear ride frequency and the damping particularly at the rear (As a side effect of the spring rate choosen to support df and tyre grip - Cup 2 R)
The car isn't stiff per se - but the responses can be quite sharp - so you need to be focused on a quick paced drive to catch the car if/when it skips or bucks.
It can be toned down with geo and also with correct tyre choice and also it mellows with miles - But whilst you have that standard hardware in there, its not going to flow at high speed like a GT4/718 Spyder would if you are expecting that.
Contributing to that is also the drivetrain and delivery of power... the 9A2EVO from the GT4/Spyder does have a more immediate initial pull from low revs and noise.. like a good road car engine should - and it pulls well to the redline without a crazy amount of fuss.
The 4RS/SRS drivetrain is a much more excitable and really has multiple distinct characters between sane and bats
t lol. It's definitely a sense of occasion car - you need to be in the mood for it - where as a 718 GT4 just molds around you with minimal fuss... impressively going about its business without too much drama. 718 GT4/Spyder really are an under-appreciated sweet spot.
The 4RS pushes the boundaries further - so you move out of a sweet spot of all parameters and more into the extremes - but if you want more drama and sense of occasion and theatrics and ultimate performance - 4RS delivers in bucket loads.
GTRene said:
How about a 718 Spyder with the 'better' roof that can stay on say in Germany top speed autobahn?
then you also can choose for the Manual... the 420ps engine you can tune for around 6k which includes filters and exhaust parts etc and then you have 460ps and 450nm I saw this afternoon.
If you want more interior sound... you can set up with the SRS sort intake, but I think with the tuning pack to 460ps you already get more sound by intake and exhaust which could be perfectly right? no idea though, but I guess so.
so just 40hp shy from the automatic blip blip strange sound, way different sound then shifting with a manual and going a gear higher! when I hear those automatics I think, ow... fun for a day/week tops when you can drive on unlimited roads... but for the rest to own, I would like a manual, makes a way better sound when upshifting (engine sound) ok, not faster but slower, but who really cares most of the time.
and ow, you can also change the diff/gears to get shorter/faster gears, I forgot how much that is, I guess also a few thousands, but then you almost have a ideal Spyder.
I would say - for a rounded do it all road car.. - Regular duties, long drives, fun drives, alpine passes, track capable, and go to dinner without looking like an idiot... 718 Spyder is the one.then you also can choose for the Manual... the 420ps engine you can tune for around 6k which includes filters and exhaust parts etc and then you have 460ps and 450nm I saw this afternoon.
If you want more interior sound... you can set up with the SRS sort intake, but I think with the tuning pack to 460ps you already get more sound by intake and exhaust which could be perfectly right? no idea though, but I guess so.
so just 40hp shy from the automatic blip blip strange sound, way different sound then shifting with a manual and going a gear higher! when I hear those automatics I think, ow... fun for a day/week tops when you can drive on unlimited roads... but for the rest to own, I would like a manual, makes a way better sound when upshifting (engine sound) ok, not faster but slower, but who really cares most of the time.
and ow, you can also change the diff/gears to get shorter/faster gears, I forgot how much that is, I guess also a few thousands, but then you almost have a ideal Spyder.
Leave a long USB cable plugged in wrapped up in the frunk so that you dont have to pull the carpet every time and feel around to plug the cable in.
You can read the currently running map into the software and save it essentially creating a backup that you can reload anytime. You are then free to fool around with it to your hearts content and you can always revert to the original map.
You need Windows OS for the DSC controller software.
I learnt alot playing about with mine back in 2020.
You can read the currently running map into the software and save it essentially creating a backup that you can reload anytime. You are then free to fool around with it to your hearts content and you can always revert to the original map.
You need Windows OS for the DSC controller software.
I learnt alot playing about with mine back in 2020.
Slippydiff said:
Have been watching this thread with interest.
It's all well and good having multi-way adjustable dampers, but if the rate of the spring you're trying to control is too high, you're on a hiding to nothing if the damper's adjustment (or in this instance, it's control mapping) falls outside the parameters needed to effect the change you want, you then have an issue.
In this case, it sounds like an issue that the DSC controller has expanded the parameters sufficiently to work with the overly stiff spring rate.
The real issue is of course, why did Porsche specify that spring rate in the first place ?
Granted it could have been because a test driver felt the rear end was undersprung on a certain part of a test track/circuit or road test route, or it could have been an attempt to limit suspension travel under full compression, either to avoid a problematic kinematic change or another issue.
Or, it could be as simple as the development engineers got it wrong but they managed to get it signed off. It's happened before Gen 1 996 GT2, 964 RS, 996 GT3 RS, 997.1 PASM mapping in Sport etc. Though I'm doubtful of that in this day and age.
I've no doubt the DSC ECU is an excellent piece of kit, I certainly hope so, I'm planning to use one in the not too distant future, but it's always worthwhile asking why the factory got their maps settings and spring rates so "wrong" having spent many hundreds of hours and many €Ms developing them, only for someone to design a plug in box that on the face of it "solves" the "problem" for £1500.
Don't think I'm saying the DSC box is not fit for purpose, I'm not. Rather perhaps think outside the box as to why Porsche specified the spring rates and damper control mapping they did.
It's certainly something I'd be discussing with SS before automatically assuming a £1500 ECU is the answer to the "problem" that may have been engineered in for a reason/s that aren't obvious.
Brilliant perspective H - WHEN will this forum be updated with a like button!It's all well and good having multi-way adjustable dampers, but if the rate of the spring you're trying to control is too high, you're on a hiding to nothing if the damper's adjustment (or in this instance, it's control mapping) falls outside the parameters needed to effect the change you want, you then have an issue.
In this case, it sounds like an issue that the DSC controller has expanded the parameters sufficiently to work with the overly stiff spring rate.
The real issue is of course, why did Porsche specify that spring rate in the first place ?
Granted it could have been because a test driver felt the rear end was undersprung on a certain part of a test track/circuit or road test route, or it could have been an attempt to limit suspension travel under full compression, either to avoid a problematic kinematic change or another issue.
Or, it could be as simple as the development engineers got it wrong but they managed to get it signed off. It's happened before Gen 1 996 GT2, 964 RS, 996 GT3 RS, 997.1 PASM mapping in Sport etc. Though I'm doubtful of that in this day and age.
I've no doubt the DSC ECU is an excellent piece of kit, I certainly hope so, I'm planning to use one in the not too distant future, but it's always worthwhile asking why the factory got their maps settings and spring rates so "wrong" having spent many hundreds of hours and many €Ms developing them, only for someone to design a plug in box that on the face of it "solves" the "problem" for £1500.
Don't think I'm saying the DSC box is not fit for purpose, I'm not. Rather perhaps think outside the box as to why Porsche specified the spring rates and damper control mapping they did.
It's certainly something I'd be discussing with SS before automatically assuming a £1500 ECU is the answer to the "problem" that may have been engineered in for a reason/s that aren't obvious.
These points are extremely valid - and this rationale has guided my decision making.
I believe - the uprated rates chosen primarily to support Cup2 R tyres as an OEM optional tyres and to a lesser extent any additional Df.
If you look through recent GT car history... since the introduction of Cup2 R.... the spring/damping rates have all taken a big jump - starting with 991.2 3RS.
Spyder RS however does not support Cup2 R - but is otherwise the same car...(roofless) - and that has regular GT4/Spyder Spring/Damper rates.
Edited by TDT on Tuesday 12th August 11:19
fridaypassion said:
TDT said:
I'm 99% sure the part numbers are the same as the GT4 At the end of the day not sure it really matters? - The implementation and the net result is totally different than GT4.
Slippydiff said:
TDT said:
So are you saying they just put a stiffer spring set on and revised the software and called it a day? - no internal changes?
At the end of the day not sure it really matters? - The implementation and the net result is totally different than GT4.
Hi T, I think on the basis they did precisely that on the ST, it's a very likely scenario.At the end of the day not sure it really matters? - The implementation and the net result is totally different than GT4.
They did not go this far this 4RS... so maybe all the more justification for a properly developed solution... - or they left that development budget on the table for the customer to choose to spend - rather than it resulting in a more expensive RRP (although they chose to do cars and coffee cosmetic WP instead! - speaks to the how they view customers these days! 'style' over substance)
Good of you to contribute Jamie.
Ohlins TTX will compliment the investment you’ve already made in top mounts front and rear - as they don’t come with their own… so you can use your parts.
Other thing is no OEM FAL support so you may lose that functionality or have to use a piggy back system - all of which signposts the final point… loss of warranty backing for suspension - but for some that might not be a worry or the benefit on performance and cost is worth it - of course Ohlins are top notch and they have a couple of spring options for GT4/RS.
Love seeing your laps. Hopefully we’ll met up somewhere.
Ohlins TTX will compliment the investment you’ve already made in top mounts front and rear - as they don’t come with their own… so you can use your parts.
Other thing is no OEM FAL support so you may lose that functionality or have to use a piggy back system - all of which signposts the final point… loss of warranty backing for suspension - but for some that might not be a worry or the benefit on performance and cost is worth it - of course Ohlins are top notch and they have a couple of spring options for GT4/RS.
Love seeing your laps. Hopefully we’ll met up somewhere.
Max geo on standard parts + shims is in the region of
-2.5° Front
-2.2° Rear
Depending on ride height. With lower than factory ride height you may be able to get a touch more. But then the rear will be limited by the rear toe which as standard is only adjustable via eccentric bolt.
Units - Degrees Decimal
-2.5° Front
-2.2° Rear
Depending on ride height. With lower than factory ride height you may be able to get a touch more. But then the rear will be limited by the rear toe which as standard is only adjustable via eccentric bolt.
Units - Degrees Decimal
ricky_rkt said:
TDT said:
Max geo on standard parts + shims is in the region of
-2.5° Front
-2.2° Rear
Depending on ride height. With lower than factory ride height you may be able to get a touch more. But then the rear will be limited by the rear toe which as standard is only adjustable via eccentric bolt.
Units - Degrees Decimal
Thanks TDT.-2.5° Front
-2.2° Rear
Depending on ride height. With lower than factory ride height you may be able to get a touch more. But then the rear will be limited by the rear toe which as standard is only adjustable via eccentric bolt.
Units - Degrees Decimal
Interesting, never thought about this option.
Shims + new alignment + DSC
Top mount would be maybe for a more aggressive camber not achievable with shims and not needed for main road use and some track days?, what about adjustable rear toe links?.
Please, correct me if I am wrong.
This can be done easily without changing parts and does not affect warranty. Additional benefit of using shims is that you also gain track width.
With shims alone you can get to the range I mentioned before.
Jimbo_vx said:
Well after 3 years of lust after a GT4RS, I've just committed to one of the last new ones available.
Thank you Tyrone for your advice, this is almost the same spec as yours but in blue. I specifically wanted a non Weissach pack car. The only thing I would have added on a new factory order is probably ceramics.
This has got:
Front lift
Racetec interior in grey
PLDS (LEDs)
Chrono
Black calibers
Bose
Nice one James, happy to help anytime. Congrats and I look forward to seeing what you think about it.Thank you Tyrone for your advice, this is almost the same spec as yours but in blue. I specifically wanted a non Weissach pack car. The only thing I would have added on a new factory order is probably ceramics.
This has got:
Front lift
Racetec interior in grey
PLDS (LEDs)
Chrono
Black calibers
Bose
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