Panamera 970 - PSM Failure & Auto Stop / Start Deactivated
Discussion
Hi all, seeking some advice.
I have a 2010 970 4.8s with 165k km on the clock as a project car. I've enjoyed the car much more than I initially expected so have been getting my hands dirty to keep it tip top.
I've spent a fair whack on the air suspension (all 4 corner), thermostat housing, bushes, tyres, wheels etc etc.
Of late I've noticed a bit of rough running on idle followed by slight engine knocking (used to called it pinking) under load between 1000-1500rpm.
Fast forward a 3 weeks back and I'm presented with a PSM failure & Auto Stop Start Deactivated warning on a morning start. A quick restart of the car cleared the error and nothing useful was shown on my cheap code reader.
After a couple of weeks of the same error each morning, it escalated and presented a transmission & engine failure notice. At this time it began to run rough. 3 restarts later is cleared and ran fine.
After this I set to and replaced the battery. The previous owner had some cheap crap fitted but I thought she deserved better and purchased an OEM spec AGM Varta battery. I knew that these motors were very sensitive to a dodgy battery so it felt like a good choice. Unfortunately no change after this, the error still snowed up every morning. Please note, I haven't yet coded this to the car so this might be part of the problem??
Undeterred, I started looking at the coils and immediately found two with cracks in them.....BINGO (or so I thought). I replaced both and whilst the car felt a bit smoother, it was not presenting the same errors on every start up. It never clears off.
Today I thought I'd bite the bullet and replace all plugs and coils. Yep you've guessed it, no change and arguably its running as ropey as it was at the start!!
So now I'm at a bit of a loss. I could take it to my regular garage but I feel that's giving in too early. The car is not needed on a daily basis so it's not big shakes if it's not running but I'm determined.
I definitely think I'll benefit from a better code reader.
As a side note, the plugs looked well ropey!!
Any advice welcome!
I have a 2010 970 4.8s with 165k km on the clock as a project car. I've enjoyed the car much more than I initially expected so have been getting my hands dirty to keep it tip top.
I've spent a fair whack on the air suspension (all 4 corner), thermostat housing, bushes, tyres, wheels etc etc.
Of late I've noticed a bit of rough running on idle followed by slight engine knocking (used to called it pinking) under load between 1000-1500rpm.
Fast forward a 3 weeks back and I'm presented with a PSM failure & Auto Stop Start Deactivated warning on a morning start. A quick restart of the car cleared the error and nothing useful was shown on my cheap code reader.
After a couple of weeks of the same error each morning, it escalated and presented a transmission & engine failure notice. At this time it began to run rough. 3 restarts later is cleared and ran fine.
After this I set to and replaced the battery. The previous owner had some cheap crap fitted but I thought she deserved better and purchased an OEM spec AGM Varta battery. I knew that these motors were very sensitive to a dodgy battery so it felt like a good choice. Unfortunately no change after this, the error still snowed up every morning. Please note, I haven't yet coded this to the car so this might be part of the problem??
Undeterred, I started looking at the coils and immediately found two with cracks in them.....BINGO (or so I thought). I replaced both and whilst the car felt a bit smoother, it was not presenting the same errors on every start up. It never clears off.
Today I thought I'd bite the bullet and replace all plugs and coils. Yep you've guessed it, no change and arguably its running as ropey as it was at the start!!
So now I'm at a bit of a loss. I could take it to my regular garage but I feel that's giving in too early. The car is not needed on a daily basis so it's not big shakes if it's not running but I'm determined.
I definitely think I'll benefit from a better code reader.
As a side note, the plugs looked well ropey!!
Any advice welcome!
The plugs don't look great. First off get the codes read; at least you have a snapshot of what the DME is warning about.
I would check the air filter if that is an unknown quantity - they have a habit of breaking up when aged or getting wet. While there, lift the intake off and check the intake ports - the DFI engines carbon up. There are options to clean the intakes 'in-situ'; depending on what you find.
I would check the air filter if that is an unknown quantity - they have a habit of breaking up when aged or getting wet. While there, lift the intake off and check the intake ports - the DFI engines carbon up. There are options to clean the intakes 'in-situ'; depending on what you find.
Thanks for the suggestions.
I've carried out a typical CRC clean previously (as some forums recommended) but this was before the errors occurred. However I've read about varying levels of success when doing that so I suspect a proper job is required.
The air filter was changed in November last year so can rule that out.
Checking the car this morning I'm actually now thinking it's a battery drain issue. It started fine but when I stuck it in reverse the camera didn't pop up, only distance control image. It did they with the old battery towards the end (every time) so I wonder if it's related. I've put it on the ctek and will check it out in a few hours.
If it's not the battery it could be the alternator. That's another thing I've suspected could be dodgy. Something in the aux belt system is noisy and various things have been replaced but the alternator.
Definitely need to purchase a more capable scanner!
Thanks again
I've carried out a typical CRC clean previously (as some forums recommended) but this was before the errors occurred. However I've read about varying levels of success when doing that so I suspect a proper job is required.
The air filter was changed in November last year so can rule that out.
Checking the car this morning I'm actually now thinking it's a battery drain issue. It started fine but when I stuck it in reverse the camera didn't pop up, only distance control image. It did they with the old battery towards the end (every time) so I wonder if it's related. I've put it on the ctek and will check it out in a few hours.
If it's not the battery it could be the alternator. That's another thing I've suspected could be dodgy. Something in the aux belt system is noisy and various things have been replaced but the alternator.
Definitely need to purchase a more capable scanner!
Thanks again
You can get this code with a faulty MAF by the way. The code is not a MAF code, but when the MAF starts to fail you can get this code come up.
Also, if it is anything like 911's, if you leave the MAF unplugged you get a PSM and ABS failure come up.
If not, swap the cam sensor on bank 1.
If it is neither of those then I would imagine it is the chain guides have broken up or starting to.
Also, if it is anything like 911's, if you leave the MAF unplugged you get a PSM and ABS failure come up.
If not, swap the cam sensor on bank 1.
If it is neither of those then I would imagine it is the chain guides have broken up or starting to.
To bring this up to date.
Further diagnosis has identified bank 2 has disintegrated chain guides as suggested above and common (ISH) on these engines.
Right now my mechanic doesn't think it's impacted anything else so he's sent me a fairly reasonable quote of £1300 to put it right (much of it labour). Interestingly he's not suggesting to replace the chain but will check it for stretching once in there.
Fingers crossed this sorts the issue because if not I might be looking at new cam phasers.
Further diagnosis has identified bank 2 has disintegrated chain guides as suggested above and common (ISH) on these engines.
Right now my mechanic doesn't think it's impacted anything else so he's sent me a fairly reasonable quote of £1300 to put it right (much of it labour). Interestingly he's not suggesting to replace the chain but will check it for stretching once in there.
Fingers crossed this sorts the issue because if not I might be looking at new cam phasers.
Ok, the old girl is back in action and she's running good.
Work was completed on the timing chain tensioner guides. Along with that (and for good measure) the sump was checked for debris and the oil changed out.
Inevitably (and thankfully) most of symptoms have now disappeared.
1. All dash board errors / codes have vanished
2. The idle is now rock solid and general running is head and shoulders better than it was. I would assume the car will perform much better now.
One thing which has annoyingly remained (and is clearly separate) is the knocking sound when under load (when warm) between 1-1.5k. So this is still to be investigated.
Work was completed on the timing chain tensioner guides. Along with that (and for good measure) the sump was checked for debris and the oil changed out.
Inevitably (and thankfully) most of symptoms have now disappeared.
1. All dash board errors / codes have vanished
2. The idle is now rock solid and general running is head and shoulders better than it was. I would assume the car will perform much better now.
One thing which has annoyingly remained (and is clearly separate) is the knocking sound when under load (when warm) between 1-1.5k. So this is still to be investigated.
Ed.Neumann said:
Glad you got that sorted.
I thought it would be chain guides pads.
Yep you were spot on. I thought it would be chain guides pads.
I have some videos the garage sent me. I may look at uploading them but it's exactly as seen in the link you've shared.
I had hoped it wasn't going to be that, but at least it didn't end up being too expensive.
As it's a bit of a project car / something to keep me out of trouble, it's easy for me to throw in the towel. However its an addictive hobby and it helps me learn a bit along the way. I do wish I had the time / tools to carry out more significant work as that's where the real reward will come!
Edited by MTK1919 on Friday 11th April 11:48
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