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Hello forum,
I just sold my 997 and am now looking for my next 911 and would love to go back to my first car, a 964.
With a budget of £60K tops and only looking for a coupe (possibly a targa but no convertibles).........what will the market throw up?
Has to be RHD, C2 or C4, no aftermarket funny bits, black or grey interior preferred.........do I really stand a chance of buying a decent car in nowadays markets?
And also, from what I have seen, prices are a bit up from when I bought that first car (Hartech, 1989 C4, 80K miles @ £22.000 in 2001).............will prices continue to rise or is the opinion that they will drop at some point?
Many thanks for your help!!
Rgds, Martin
I just sold my 997 and am now looking for my next 911 and would love to go back to my first car, a 964.
With a budget of £60K tops and only looking for a coupe (possibly a targa but no convertibles).........what will the market throw up?
Has to be RHD, C2 or C4, no aftermarket funny bits, black or grey interior preferred.........do I really stand a chance of buying a decent car in nowadays markets?
And also, from what I have seen, prices are a bit up from when I bought that first car (Hartech, 1989 C4, 80K miles @ £22.000 in 2001).............will prices continue to rise or is the opinion that they will drop at some point?
Many thanks for your help!!
Rgds, Martin
I'm no expert, just an enthusiastic observer, but the best late aircooled 911s (3.2 G50s, 964s, 993s) are very sought after, although I think prices may have stabilised.
£60k should give you a good choice, but the 'holy grail' examples do seem very rare or sell very quickly - C2, Coupe, Manual, FSH, Low Mileage (under 70k mls), nice colour combination, excellent/original/unmolested condition - these seem to be the desirable criteria.
Cabs/Targas/Tips/High Miles/Mods - are all less favoured. And I think the 964 C4s are less popular than C2s, although 993 C4s much better.
However, an aircooled probably isn't a 'daily user' like a 997, more of a summer/weekend treat. Buy well and your money should be safe though.
£60k should give you a good choice, but the 'holy grail' examples do seem very rare or sell very quickly - C2, Coupe, Manual, FSH, Low Mileage (under 70k mls), nice colour combination, excellent/original/unmolested condition - these seem to be the desirable criteria.
Cabs/Targas/Tips/High Miles/Mods - are all less favoured. And I think the 964 C4s are less popular than C2s, although 993 C4s much better.
However, an aircooled probably isn't a 'daily user' like a 997, more of a summer/weekend treat. Buy well and your money should be safe though.
Martin,
How about this: http://www.williamscrawford.co.uk/vehicle/964-carr...
I visited Adrian Crawford's recently and gave a Carrera 3.2 an extensive test drive. Very good product knowledge. I was impressed by them. Decided to go for a 964 C4 Cab in the end (private sale). Love it! My daily drive is a 996 C4S. The 964 feels wonderfully 'analogue' by comparison.
Geoff
How about this: http://www.williamscrawford.co.uk/vehicle/964-carr...
I visited Adrian Crawford's recently and gave a Carrera 3.2 an extensive test drive. Very good product knowledge. I was impressed by them. Decided to go for a 964 C4 Cab in the end (private sale). Love it! My daily drive is a 996 C4S. The 964 feels wonderfully 'analogue' by comparison.
Geoff
KIPSTER said:
Thank you Geoff!
That looks nice - just like my first 911 back in 2001 which I bought from Hartech.
I am also eyeing up the cat D 993 C2S selling at Landbeasts in Essex..........anybody any thoughts on that one?
Martin
Well they're in a pretty pokey part of the world for starters - but theer's a Porsche specialist a stone's throw away from them. That looks nice - just like my first 911 back in 2001 which I bought from Hartech.
I am also eyeing up the cat D 993 C2S selling at Landbeasts in Essex..........anybody any thoughts on that one?
Martin
if you're not looking at the car as an investment then fine. If you are, the fact it's been retirmmed (why?) and is a Cat D will make it difficult to move on in the future. I find it hard to believe anyone would write a car like that of just because of front and rear PU damage. maybe the 'new suspension' might tell a tale...
the issue with the 964 is it's age.
a lot of £50k cars can eat a £15k body work bill these days.
add In an engine bill, etc ect and one might well be a full blown £60k restoration.
which was ok when the cars were £15k but at £50k you have got to really know what you are buying.
the market might catch you up at some point if you spend £90k in total, who knows.
Imo it's a risky buy.
I would love a 964 Project, but cannot see the value in it myself unless a keeper and you go in open eyes.
or do you by a blow over respray car with a top end engine rebuild for £50k and just drive it and not worry too much.
only you can decide that, but don't buy a £50k nail there are many about !
a lot of £50k cars can eat a £15k body work bill these days.
add In an engine bill, etc ect and one might well be a full blown £60k restoration.
which was ok when the cars were £15k but at £50k you have got to really know what you are buying.
the market might catch you up at some point if you spend £90k in total, who knows.
Imo it's a risky buy.
I would love a 964 Project, but cannot see the value in it myself unless a keeper and you go in open eyes.
or do you by a blow over respray car with a top end engine rebuild for £50k and just drive it and not worry too much.
only you can decide that, but don't buy a £50k nail there are many about !
id pay more for a 964 or 993 any day over a 997 because I prefer the drive of the aircooled cars, not for any 'fashion reasons' . I'm not after dynamic perfection or fastest lap times but wanting a car I have to physically drive and get satisfaction from when i get it right.. I enjoy the car moving about at low speeds etc .... Of course aircooled cars can be frustrating at times, but as an overall fun driving package , to me , they are preferable to the later stuff. I've just sold my M3 CSL .... again I prefer the drive of the aircooled cars
Money .... back in the day we used to throw money at our cars to keep them running , with no thought of being able to get it back at sale time. Whats the obsession these days of having to get back the cost of major work through resale ?
Money .... back in the day we used to throw money at our cars to keep them running , with no thought of being able to get it back at sale time. Whats the obsession these days of having to get back the cost of major work through resale ?
hot66 said:
id pay more for a 964 or 993 any day over a 997 because I prefer the drive of the aircooled cars, not for any 'fashion reasons' . I'm not after dynamic perfection or fastest lap times but wanting a car I have to physically drive and get satisfaction from when i get it right.. I enjoy the car moving about at low speeds etc .... Of course aircooled cars can be frustrating at times, but as an overall fun driving package , to me , they are preferable to the later stuff. I've just sold my M3 CSL .... again I prefer the drive of the aircooled cars
Money .... back in the day we used to throw money at our cars to keep them running , with no thought of being able to get it back at sale time. Whats the obsession these days of having to get back the cost of major work through resale ?
Okay hypothetical question. Lets say you do not have any cars and want a UK supplied 25000 miles, FPSH, no major accident, RHD 964 C2 (you may not want one but this is only hypothetical).Money .... back in the day we used to throw money at our cars to keep them running , with no thought of being able to get it back at sale time. Whats the obsession these days of having to get back the cost of major work through resale ?
Would you pay £85,000 to £100,000 for the above car?
Desert Dragon said:
Okay hypothetical question. Lets say you do not have any cars and want a UK supplied 25000 miles, FPSH, no major accident, RHD 964 C2 (you may not want one but this is only hypothetical).
Would you pay £85,000 to £100,000 for the above car?
No.Would you pay £85,000 to £100,000 for the above car?
because the 964 is just not special enough
because at that price you're taking a big risk on the car
because its perceived value is in its low mileage, which means everytime you add miles to it you reduce its perceived value and desirability to any 'collector'
Agree with Ruby
Reality .. spend £80 / 90K ? no, but my post was refering more to the £50K mark , which with some searching you can find decent cars at that price point, although they wont fit the criterea youve set
At £50K I'd choose a nice 964 / 993 over a nice 997
at £90K ... I agree, bone stock 964 C2 are currently not worth ( to me ) this much , mainly because I think they are over priced when you can find nice cars for less money ( not that it matters, but also I wouldnt buy RHD ) .
As soon as youre talking low mileage beauty queens .... this is away from the relms of normality.. they are collectors cars .
BUT .. if you looked at it this way :
£100K to spend on a fun car
1. Buy a 991 C2 for £100K , put 20K sunny weekend miles on it over 3 years ... whats it worth aftrer 3 years ? £70K .. cost £30K dep + running
2. Buy a 25k miles 964 C2 for £90K , put 20K sunny weekend miles on it over 3 years ( total 45K miles on clock ) ... whats it worth aftrer 3 years ? £75K ( ??? ) ... cost £25K dep + running
Some buyers might look at it this way ? So to them you could say from a £ point of view , if they love aircooled , a 964 is worth that kind of money
Its all man maths at the end of the day
Reality .. spend £80 / 90K ? no, but my post was refering more to the £50K mark , which with some searching you can find decent cars at that price point, although they wont fit the criterea youve set
At £50K I'd choose a nice 964 / 993 over a nice 997
at £90K ... I agree, bone stock 964 C2 are currently not worth ( to me ) this much , mainly because I think they are over priced when you can find nice cars for less money ( not that it matters, but also I wouldnt buy RHD ) .
As soon as youre talking low mileage beauty queens .... this is away from the relms of normality.. they are collectors cars .
BUT .. if you looked at it this way :
£100K to spend on a fun car
1. Buy a 991 C2 for £100K , put 20K sunny weekend miles on it over 3 years ... whats it worth aftrer 3 years ? £70K .. cost £30K dep + running
2. Buy a 25k miles 964 C2 for £90K , put 20K sunny weekend miles on it over 3 years ( total 45K miles on clock ) ... whats it worth aftrer 3 years ? £75K ( ??? ) ... cost £25K dep + running
Some buyers might look at it this way ? So to them you could say from a £ point of view , if they love aircooled , a 964 is worth that kind of money
Its all man maths at the end of the day
Edited by hot66 on Wednesday 21st June 11:07
although i do struggle to say a car isn't worth what the market decides when my own 2.4S is valued by the market so high 
I'd love a 356 cabrio ... can't afford one as they are £150K upwards .. are they worth the money ? To some yes
It is difficult / wrong to compare the 'value' of a modern sports car to a classic , wether 356 or 993 . Everyone has their own tastes. I know people who wouldnt be seen dead in a bright coloured GT3 but would give the world to be able to cruise around in a 356
I'd love a 356 cabrio ... can't afford one as they are £150K upwards .. are they worth the money ? To some yes
It is difficult / wrong to compare the 'value' of a modern sports car to a classic , wether 356 or 993 . Everyone has their own tastes. I know people who wouldnt be seen dead in a bright coloured GT3 but would give the world to be able to cruise around in a 356
hot66 said:
although i do struggle to say a car isn't worth what the market decides when my own 2.4S is valued by the market so high
Lovely u turn. Picking up on your earlier point I suppose everyone's definition of a nice car is different. Personally I think it's very difficult to buy a good 993 or 964 C2 for £50k.
The 964 C2 I describe earlier in the thread is not a collector car. They turn their noses up at anything with more than 10,000 miles.
You can however buy a collector quality 997 for £50k so that's where my money did go.
997 to me is of no interest though. I got bored with my 996turbo ( 28k mile stunner) ... I just don't bond with the watercooled cars as toys
Nice higher mileage ( if you're buying to drive condition is more important than mileage ) are out there... but there is a huge amount of tat also. When I was shopping a couple of years ago for my 964 I was amazed at some of the crap for sale .
50k 997 is never going to be a proper collectors car as it just doesnt have the desirability or rarity. Great as a daily or weekend toy, but lining up to be the next car in a Porsche collectors garage , no.
A low mileage all original aircooled car is effectively a unicorn and thus why to some , if they can find one, they Think its worth so much. I respect these cars but they are not for me.
Funny really, got a friend with a low mileage PTS 991 gt3 who hardly uses it as afraid to add miles ... where as his concours just out of resto 1973 2.4e will be driven at every opportunity as mileage has little Effect on its desirability or value. Due to this, the early car will be fun as its actually used
Nice higher mileage ( if you're buying to drive condition is more important than mileage ) are out there... but there is a huge amount of tat also. When I was shopping a couple of years ago for my 964 I was amazed at some of the crap for sale .
50k 997 is never going to be a proper collectors car as it just doesnt have the desirability or rarity. Great as a daily or weekend toy, but lining up to be the next car in a Porsche collectors garage , no.
A low mileage all original aircooled car is effectively a unicorn and thus why to some , if they can find one, they Think its worth so much. I respect these cars but they are not for me.
Funny really, got a friend with a low mileage PTS 991 gt3 who hardly uses it as afraid to add miles ... where as his concours just out of resto 1973 2.4e will be driven at every opportunity as mileage has little Effect on its desirability or value. Due to this, the early car will be fun as its actually used
Edited by hot66 on Wednesday 21st June 16:44
Edited by hot66 on Wednesday 21st June 16:46
Edited by hot66 on Wednesday 21st June 16:48
hot66 said:
Loads of edits due to crap spelling :lol:
Sorry I said collector quality not that a 997 is a collectors car. You should try a 997 GT3 I suspect you'll love it from the sort of car you like.
FWIW I don't think 964 C2 or 3.2 Carrera or 993 C2 are collectors cars either. Can't help thinking of them as anything other than £15k smokers
I agree , apart from the £15k bit .... £15k doesn't buy much outside of Porsche these days , even nice e46m3's are up there and I think a 964 / 993 is a better car so I see them as more like £30k cars ( which brings us back to the question of value :lol: )
But, as I said , I do agree .... I I see a 964 as a great base to modify and thrash the tits off on country lanes .... Which is also exactly the reason I love my 1973 car. Personally dislike the whole collector thing ... I try and view these things from a driving perspective .... Both. Y cars are modified .
Btw, yes I do like GT3's
But, as I said , I do agree .... I I see a 964 as a great base to modify and thrash the tits off on country lanes .... Which is also exactly the reason I love my 1973 car. Personally dislike the whole collector thing ... I try and view these things from a driving perspective .... Both. Y cars are modified .
Btw, yes I do like GT3's
Edited by hot66 on Wednesday 21st June 18:37
Edited by hot66 on Wednesday 21st June 18:38
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Don't think they're fashion items. They're investments really. A few years ago you could buy the very best concourse 3.2 C, 964 C2 and 993 C2 for under £50k. Those very same cars are now up to £100k. To be fair to them the way an air cooled delivers its experience is fairly unique even down to the smell when you enter the car to the heavy burble of a flat 6 in what feels like a very small car. They feel like hot rods and deliver a raw driving experience later water-cooled in all their guises fail to deliver in the same intoxicating way. If they were still £50k I'd buy the air cooled over the water cooled for weekend fun type use. 997 and 996 do a good impression apeing their earlier ancestor.
The best aircooled 911s are firmly established as desirable classics.
They come from a 'golden era' of Porsche history, when they were still a small, independent, sports car manufacturer, with close racing links. These cars were largely hand built in small numbers, and established Porsche's reputation, that has now burgeoned into a massive mainstream component in the VAG empire.
For me (and many others) if I only had one Porsche it would be an aircooled 911 - 2.2, 2.4, 2.7(RS), 3.2, 964, 993 all beautiful and all so engaging and rewarding to drive. Everyone has their preferences, but the best examples of the more modern iterations - the 3.2 G50, the 964s and the 993s are very sought after - perhaps kept in the garage, under a fitted cover, parked next to a contemporary iteration, to be taken out and savoured on the right road on the right day.
Porsche will never make anymore, production ceased 20 years ago, and the 996 onwards is a whole new world. There are a finite number of aircooled 911s, and those in original, unmolested, low mileage, condition will remain sought after, even if the market goes through a correction, because they still offer something unique.
If anyone doesn't 'get' that, they don't get Porsches.
They come from a 'golden era' of Porsche history, when they were still a small, independent, sports car manufacturer, with close racing links. These cars were largely hand built in small numbers, and established Porsche's reputation, that has now burgeoned into a massive mainstream component in the VAG empire.
For me (and many others) if I only had one Porsche it would be an aircooled 911 - 2.2, 2.4, 2.7(RS), 3.2, 964, 993 all beautiful and all so engaging and rewarding to drive. Everyone has their preferences, but the best examples of the more modern iterations - the 3.2 G50, the 964s and the 993s are very sought after - perhaps kept in the garage, under a fitted cover, parked next to a contemporary iteration, to be taken out and savoured on the right road on the right day.
Porsche will never make anymore, production ceased 20 years ago, and the 996 onwards is a whole new world. There are a finite number of aircooled 911s, and those in original, unmolested, low mileage, condition will remain sought after, even if the market goes through a correction, because they still offer something unique.
If anyone doesn't 'get' that, they don't get Porsches.
Geneve said:
The best aircooled 911s are firmly established as desirable classics.
They come from a 'golden era' of Porsche history, when they were still a small, independent, sports car manufacturer, with close racing links. These cars were largely hand built in small numbers, and established Porsche's reputation, that has now burgeoned into a massive mainstream component in the VAG empire.
For me (and many others) if I only had one Porsche it would be an aircooled 911 - 2.2, 2.4, 2.7(RS), 3.2, 964, 993 all beautiful and all so engaging and rewarding to drive. Everyone has their preferences, but the best examples of the more modern iterations - the 3.2 G50, the 964s and the 993s are very sought after - perhaps kept in the garage, under a fitted cover, parked next to a contemporary iteration, to be taken out and savoured on the right road on the right day.
Porsche will never make anymore, production ceased 20 years ago, and the 996 onwards is a whole new world. There are a finite number of aircooled 911s, and those in original, unmolested, low mileage, condition will remain sought after, even if the market goes through a correction, because they still offer something unique.
If anyone doesn't 'get' that, they don't get Porsches.
100% agree with all of this. Shame they're so expensive though. Perhaps deservedly so.They come from a 'golden era' of Porsche history, when they were still a small, independent, sports car manufacturer, with close racing links. These cars were largely hand built in small numbers, and established Porsche's reputation, that has now burgeoned into a massive mainstream component in the VAG empire.
For me (and many others) if I only had one Porsche it would be an aircooled 911 - 2.2, 2.4, 2.7(RS), 3.2, 964, 993 all beautiful and all so engaging and rewarding to drive. Everyone has their preferences, but the best examples of the more modern iterations - the 3.2 G50, the 964s and the 993s are very sought after - perhaps kept in the garage, under a fitted cover, parked next to a contemporary iteration, to be taken out and savoured on the right road on the right day.
Porsche will never make anymore, production ceased 20 years ago, and the 996 onwards is a whole new world. There are a finite number of aircooled 911s, and those in original, unmolested, low mileage, condition will remain sought after, even if the market goes through a correction, because they still offer something unique.
If anyone doesn't 'get' that, they don't get Porsches.
Geneve said:
The best aircooled 911s are firmly established as desirable classics.
They come from a 'golden era' of Porsche history, when they were still a small, independent, sports car manufacturer, with close racing links. These cars were largely hand built in small numbers, and established Porsche's reputation, that has now burgeoned into a massive mainstream component in the VAG empire.
For me (and many others) if I only had one Porsche it would be an aircooled 911 - 2.2, 2.4, 2.7(RS), 3.2, 964, 993 all beautiful and all so engaging and rewarding to drive. Everyone has their preferences, but the best examples of the more modern iterations - the 3.2 G50, the 964s and the 993s are very sought after - perhaps kept in the garage, under a fitted cover, parked next to a contemporary iteration, to be taken out and savoured on the right road on the right day.
Porsche will never make anymore, production ceased 20 years ago, and the 996 onwards is a whole new world. There are a finite number of aircooled 911s, and those in original, unmolested, low mileage, condition will remain sought after, even if the market goes through a correction, because they still offer something unique.
If anyone doesn't 'get' that, they don't get Porsches.
I get it, right up until 'low mileage'.They come from a 'golden era' of Porsche history, when they were still a small, independent, sports car manufacturer, with close racing links. These cars were largely hand built in small numbers, and established Porsche's reputation, that has now burgeoned into a massive mainstream component in the VAG empire.
For me (and many others) if I only had one Porsche it would be an aircooled 911 - 2.2, 2.4, 2.7(RS), 3.2, 964, 993 all beautiful and all so engaging and rewarding to drive. Everyone has their preferences, but the best examples of the more modern iterations - the 3.2 G50, the 964s and the 993s are very sought after - perhaps kept in the garage, under a fitted cover, parked next to a contemporary iteration, to be taken out and savoured on the right road on the right day.
Porsche will never make anymore, production ceased 20 years ago, and the 996 onwards is a whole new world. There are a finite number of aircooled 911s, and those in original, unmolested, low mileage, condition will remain sought after, even if the market goes through a correction, because they still offer something unique.
If anyone doesn't 'get' that, they don't get Porsches.
Original, unmolested and meticulously well maintained would be a much better way of thinking.
What's the point in having a car that's great to drive if its value is enhanced by not driving it?
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