Looking to get an air cooled 911

Looking to get an air cooled 911

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Discussion

evodarren

Original Poster:

428 posts

134 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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Geneve said:
No, not in my opinion. If you try to compare any of the aircooled 911s with the contemporary models you are likely to be disappointed.

And I say that having had 11 aircooled Porsches (6 bought brand new and used as my only everyday transport in London), plus several collectables. I love them dearly, they are part of the golden era of Porsche history, the best ones are truly rewarding and so intimate to drive, and I would always want one in my garage - but alongside a modern variant..

Not everyone 'gets' the aircooled 911s, and many go that route only to be disappointed because they have been brought up only ever understanding the latest water-cooled iterations. It's not really about the performance of the car, it's to do with the interaction between the driver, the car and the road.

And, it's impossible to say which is the best aircooled. The 'best' examples I ever drove were all standard 993 C4 6-spd Varioram Coupes, but a 2.2'S' is probably more fun on the right day on the right road. And, yes, a 3.2 G50 or a 964 C2 certainly hit a lot of sweet spots.

Of course there's the 'modifieds', but that's an endless road.........
I understand what you mean. Only been in one air cooled before a lightly modified 964.I guess if i wasnt going from a GT3 it would be an easier change. Or keep mine for another 10 years and it will reach classic status.

SignalGruen

630 posts

200 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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No idea what this is up for, probably lots, but sell the GT3 and get it smile

https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/8698...

EGTE

996 posts

182 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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Oof, that looks lovely (and will be, if made by Tuthills).

Most likely on Exe-TC suspension, too.

Interesting caliper shot - those are cooling fins?

RSVP911

8,192 posts

133 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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BertBert said:
Steve Rance said:
Upon reflection, I'd just advise you to look for a good air cooled car. Any air cooled car, but a good one.
That's advice that I wouldn't agree with. I agree with the 'get a good one' part of course. But there is a huge difference in driving from a SWB car to a 993, so it's def not what I would do. I haven't driven all models (by a long, long way) but some I've liked, some I've been indifferent to and some I've hated. I hated my 930 turbo (gone), love my 69T, was indifferent to my 993 (gone)! All personal choice of course, but they are different that's for sure.
Bert
Hi Bert - always loved the look of the 930 Turbo and quite fancy one - I had a 3.2 Carerra (G50) and really liked it - what didn’t you like about the Turbo ? smile

Slippydiff

14,830 posts

223 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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EGTE said:
Oof, that looks lovely (and will be, if made by Tuthills).

Most likely on Exe-TC suspension, too.

Interesting caliper shot - those are cooling fins?
They're 917 calipers, and yes, they're cooling fins.

Slippydiff

14,830 posts

223 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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isaldiri said:
Interesting that cheers. I'd always hankered after a good 993 (pretty much the only air cooled car I wanted but in RS ie lighter weight form) I have to say over a 964 especially with what I had thought were better dynamics.
Well it's that old chestnut again, what's better ? I've owned 4 964 RS's over the past 15 years and a 993 RS. Scroll down this page to see them in all their glory.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

As with any Porsche, the newer one is allegedly "better" than the old iteration it replaces. But the improvements to the 964/993 aren't so clearcut as most would have you believe. Certainly in RS form the "improvements" served to detract from it as a drivers car, not by a massive margin, merely a few percentage points, but those points were tangible.

All the aircooled RS cars I owned were left hand drive, which in the case of the 964 meant no power assistance for the steering. Let me say here and now I rarely used my aircooled cars as daily drivers, on the contrary, they were Summer early Sunday morning cars, when the mood and conditions were right, that often meant 5-6 hours behind the wheel on the deserted roads of Central and North Wales.

There's no doubt a daily driven 964 RS used in urban conditions would be hard work, limited steering lock, no aircon, suspension that's challenging on our now parlous roads, and an engine that can (and does) get uppity if allowed to cook in hot, stop start conditions (and rest assured the driver will cook too ! !) makes for a tiresome steer.

But drive a 964 RS on the right empty, smooth. twisty and fast roads, and all those bugbears pale into insignificance. Here's my summation :

0-60 ? Quite frankly if that's your benchmark for what makes a car great (or not great) you most likely won't get the 964 RS.

Overly stiff ride ? Grow a f*ckin pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find them an absolute blast for A & B road hooning.

Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, course it can be done, but it's the little things that make them. Take the ali bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to help you) prop it up using the ali strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount).

Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.

Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.

Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.

Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.

Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......

Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.

Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.

Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......

From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.

At 6,800 rpm in third the gamee's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.

A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.

Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.

It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seat.

On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.

And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.

Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out.When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :

Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.

And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...... wink

Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........








After my second 964 RS, I figured that I HAD to try 993 RS ownership. And whilst the 911 DNA was still there in spades, something had been lost in the search for improved NVH or as it's called now, refinement. And yes you could sit for hours under a baking sun on the M25 without ANY histrionics from the 3.8 litre engine, and for sure driving around town was a cinch with the PAS, and when you ran out of talent behind the wheel, all those clever linkages and bushings that the rear suspension comprised of, would save your bacon, I know, as I tried very hard to drive it like a 964 RS, and it/I failed miserably.

But that 3.8 Varioram engine sounded like a Hoover, and whilst it had more torque under the curve than any 964 RS, so do most diesels, and there's little or no pleasure in driving a diesel ..... The 964's engine always felt more "honest", sure it was less refined and more gutteral, but that added to the experience, not detracted from it.

Likewise the 993's steering had lost it's immediacy, and with it went the feedback that made the 964 such a physical and joyful car to drive on technical twisty roads.

And whilst the 993's rear suspension was a quantum leap over that of the 964, I never truly got to grips with (or trusted) it. GIve me a 964 RS in the wet every day and twice on Sunday, because crude though the 964's trailing arm suspension is, it's honest, it relies on stiff bushes and the use of some additional washers against them to ensure the bushes don't deflect under heavy load. Sure, driving over cat's eyes on the motorway is purgatory in the 964, but the dividends are there to be enjoyed when you need to feel as connected as possible (ie in wet conditions).

The 993 RS wasn't what I'd hoped it would be, and when I moved on to a Mk1 996 GT3, the 993's flaws were ruthlessly exposed, the 996 GT3 was from a different epoch, and oh how it showed.

Yet three weeks ago a friend offered me his near 120k mile 993 C2 for a couple of days, and I jumped at the opportunity.
The car was an early pre-Varioram example, well maintained but cosmetically it was redolent of Hank Moody's 964 in Californication :



Whilst both headlamps were intact and functioning on the 993, the front end had assaulted a badger, and whilst the badger paid the ultimate price, the front valance of the 993 bore the full brunt of the impact, and looked very much the worse for wear.
Wander around the back, and this car bore an uncanny resemblance to a 964, because 23 years of British weather had taken it toll on the 993's exhaust system, and the N/S tailpipe and trim assembly had parted company with the silencer box, leaving a bumper cutout, but nothing to fill it.

It's been far too long since I last experienced the floor hinged pedals of an aircooled car, but after the reassuring clunk of the door closing and the initial shock of the how close the windscreen was to my face (and the diminutive size of the windscreen pillars themselves) everything felt reassuringly familiar.

A quick twist of the ignition key and the engine turns over with that familiar mechanical sound that's been engineered out of most modern cars. And the engine settles into a bassy and well regulated idle (unlike a 964...)
The gearshift on this example feels tight and precise, even with nearly 120k miles worth of changes under its belt. The clutch too is an ally, though the floor hinged pedal makes things "trickier" initially than more modern machinery.

I play myself in gently, but soon all the old memories and sensations come flooding back, these cars are such FUN to drive ! ! ! They require more thought, more concentration and a better understanding of the vehicle's dynamics than any other modern car. Which in turn means the process is SO involving, and extracting speed from them is reliant on your ability, rather than that of a micrroprocessor.

But they're also incredibly cool. I drive a modern, amorphous 3 Series BMW on a daily basis, so when I arrive and meet people at my destination, the car rarely garners any comments whatsoever, Not so in an aircooled 911 !! Suddenly everyone is your friend, and everyone wants to chat about "The car". All of a sudden you're part of a very select club.

Sure the 993 has some foibles, those headlamps for instance, they may be xenon (Or Litronic in Porsche speak ?) but they're worse than hopeless, and if there was one thing that marked the car out as 23 years old, it was the dire performance of the headlamps. I'm 54 and my night vision is deteriorating with every passing year, my pace in the 993 at night was quite frankly nothing short of "embarrassing". The lack of bluetooth connection for modern Smartphones was annoying, but these cars are for driving, and that pleasure shouldn't be interrupted by having to answer the phone mid way through a fast left/right kink followed by a tight off camber left hander ......

I handed the keys back to the car's owner with a great deal of reluctance two days later, and knew that it wouldn't be too long before I once again experienced the charms of aircooled ownership.... and far from continuing the search for a suitable Mk1 996 GT3 to Mantheysize, my attention has now turned to sourcing a manual, 993 C2.

Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 6th December 21:11


Edited by Slippydiff on Thursday 7th December 10:36

RSVP911

8,192 posts

133 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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H You’re back !

That’s quite some post !!

I am currently suffering from sellers remorse - the 964 3.6 Turbo has gone (I really hope hope to someone on here ?)
I miss it very much already ! But true to my tartish form , I’m looking at your old yellow 964 RS and thinking - bugger timings a bh !

However the air cooled magic is still alive in my 73 RS (ish) - & that puppy is going nowhere - ever.

Keep well H and good luck with the search smile

Slippydiff

14,830 posts

223 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
quotequote all
RSVP911 said:
H You’re back !

That’s quite some post (you may want to edit it as you’ve doubled up on a large part of it)

I am currently suffering from sellers remorse - the 964 3.6 Turbo has gone (I really hope hope to someone on here ?)
I miss it very much already ! But true to my tartish form , I’m looking at your old yellow 964 RS and thinking - bugger timings a bh !

However the air cooled magic is still alive in my 73 RS (ish) - & that puppy is going nowhere - ever.

Keep well H and good luck with the search smile
Hi Rich, hope you're well ? Many thanks for the heads up on the contrived post.
Regrettably not here to stay, merely a cathartic post to while away some time this evening after the the worst two and half weeks of my life frown

Apologies to all, the posts are now out of order due to my somewhat befuddled mindset.

stigmeister

70 posts

168 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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@Slippy - great post and summation on the 64RS (and 93RS to a degree) - you sum up the cars "raison d'être" perfectly. You have written a good 'feel' of the car for anyone out there that is interested but who hasn't maybe had the opportunity (or luck) to drive one.

@RSVP - been there with sellers remorse (as i guess many have) and it can be painful - so try not look back, forwards is the only way!

O.P. - i think you have to try as many genres as you can of the a/c's and try and see which fits you best - they all have their foibles but find the right one and it will be 'magic'.

Bieldside

583 posts

199 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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I have had my 9934s for 16 years
60000 miles
Costs about £3000 to fix and service
Do I ever resent the bill
Do I ever think of selling
Is it better than my 991.1 GT3
To each the answer is no !
Simply the best drive
But it’s now 20 years old so it’s hard to adjust to if you want gizmos
I don’t so I’m happy

RSVP911

8,192 posts

133 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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stigmeister said:
@Slippy - great post and summation on the 64RS (and 93RS to a degree) - you sum up the cars "raison d'être" perfectly. You have written a good 'feel' of the car for anyone out there that is interested but who hasn't maybe had the opportunity (or luck) to drive one.

@RSVP - been there with sellers remorse (as i guess many have) and it can be painful - so try not look back, forwards is the only way!

O.P. - i think you have to try as many genres as you can of the a/c's and try and see which fits you best - they all have their foibles but find the right one and it will be 'magic'.
Good advice - thanks smile

hunter 66

3,905 posts

220 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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Yes SLippy .... loved my 64 RS as daily and track toy did about 80k miles in it ... but for me the air cooled car I like to drive is the 993 GT2 ......

SRT Hellcat

7,031 posts

217 months

Thursday 7th December 2017
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hunter 66 said:
Yes SLippy .... loved my 64 RS as daily and track toy did about 80k miles in it ... but for me the air cooled car I like to drive is the 993 GT2 ......
On the track I would agree but not on the road. You have been around them for a long time. I am sure you will agree that a K16 car is somewhat anaemic. The evo with K24's cams etc is a real weapon. I loved it to bits but it always felt like a coiled up spring just waiting to be unleashed and at some point on your journey you would have to oblige. Rev limiter in 3rd was 100mph in pretty much 7 seconds. If you exercised the gears a little you know what territory you are in. I honestly would love to own and race one. The sweet spot I guess. 956/962 just to damn quick and that aero stuff really takes some getting your head around. That sounds a little daft as quick is good. But watch a Spa in car and the only place you can overtake is on the kemmel straight after being very brave through eau rouge.

n12maser

580 posts

92 months

Thursday 7th December 2017
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@slippy considering your Porsche history that is quite the complement regarding 993 Carrera pre-vario manual. absolutely love mine!!!

cableguy

2,284 posts

209 months

Thursday 7th December 2017
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n12maser said:
@slippy considering your Porsche history that is quite the complement regarding 993 Carrera pre-vario manual. absolutely love mine!!!
Ditto and like slippy I've got great memories of my previous pork, GT2 included.

I'm currently running a pre-vario 993 C2 Manual Coupe with a recent full suspension refresh and I couldn't think of a more intoxicating and more analogue sports car.

C.

Steve Rance

5,446 posts

231 months

Thursday 7th December 2017
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evodarren said:
If i got a 964 Carrea 2 and spent some money modifing it, would it be fun enough to replace my 997.1 Gt3. Can you get the performance upgraded so its simular. Obviously the 964 will be lighter.
I think that you need to view a modified air cooled as a different proposition. In the GT3 you have one of the very best engines ever built. But a well modified air cooled will engage and reward at slower speeds. It will bob and snuffle along Just like your GT3 and can be set up to reward in exactly the same way - just at slower speeds. It will fit around you and not intimidate the roads around you like the GT3 if that makes sense? It won’t be brutal like the GT3 but it will stop and handle similarly but shrink around you in a way that the GT3 won’t. It will be a more delicate machine and will definitely reward you for more of the time on the road. On the track it will not be - or will it ever be - a GT3, but as a combination of cars to own, they really do compliment each other perfectly and owning them will give you the best of both worlds. I opted for a 964 because I wanted a cat that retained the classic 911 silhouette whilst benefiting from relatively modern underpinnings which made it easy to create exactly what I wanted from it. I’ve driven several 964 RS’s and am happy that my car pushes the boundary of sharpness even further. With careful planning and modern hardware, almost anything is possible - but I’d steer clear of engine mods as the produce a poor rerun pound for pound. A 993 would be just as rewarding. You can create almost anything from either. It just comes down to silhouette choice. Whatever car you choose, there will be
a wealth of experience on this forum to help you should you need it.

FarQue

2,336 posts

198 months

Friday 8th December 2017
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I post on PH very seldomly these days, and this may be a little off-topic but I thought I'd share:

My wife and I recently inherited a '90 964 Carrera 2 in a friend's will (we've owned a 997 Carrera S for many years). The car had been stood for 3 years and has just undergone a degree of recommisioning - service, replacement of leaky fuel pipes etc and has just gone through its MOT. We picked the car up last night from the workshop and I drove it home: it was dark, wet and the temperature was hovering around 3C. My wife (whose daily car is a very late mk3.5 MX5) followed in my '16 Octavia vRS.

Once we got home I encouraged her to take the 964 for a short spin around the block...

"Jesus, the steering's heavy" was the first comment, followed by "the brakes are terrible". After a mile or so she added "I can't see a thing. Why is it misting up in here". We fiddled with the heater controls and achieved a bit o' demisting effect which eased her lack of vision. She relaxed into the experience and finished with "I love the seat" (the car has the big side bolster 'sports seats' fitted).

I think she's gonna love the old 911!


Gary C

12,431 posts

179 months

Friday 8th December 2017
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FarQue said:
I post on PH very seldomly these days, and this may be a little off-topic but I thought I'd share:

My wife and I recently inherited a '90 964 Carrera 2 in a friend's will (we've owned a 997 Carrera S for many years). The car had been stood for 3 years and has just undergone a degree of recommisioning - service, replacement of leaky fuel pipes etc and has just gone through its MOT. We picked the car up last night from the workshop and I drove it home: it was dark, wet and the temperature was hovering around 3C. My wife (whose daily car is a very late mk3.5 MX5) followed in my '16 Octavia vRS.

Once we got home I encouraged her to take the 964 for a short spin around the block...

"Jesus, the steering's heavy" was the first comment, followed by "the brakes are terrible". After a mile or so she added "I can't see a thing. Why is it misting up in here". We fiddled with the heater controls and achieved a bit o' demisting effect which eased her lack of vision. She relaxed into the experience and finished with "I love the seat" (the car has the big side bolster 'sports seats' fitted).

I think she's gonna love the old 911!
smile

ooid

4,088 posts

100 months

Friday 8th December 2017
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Another hi-jack attempt than.. So what everyone think of this yellow birdie at design911? smile






911S 1976 COUPE 2.7 ENGINE, MANUAL (LHD) - £39,500.00

- Light yellow/tan

- 64,000K miles

- optional chrome package (all window trim)

- optional chrome package level 2- chrome rocker panels and wheel arch trim

- optional pop-out rear quarter windows

- runs and drives great

- always serviced and maintained by previous owner

- Warm up regulator just replaced last month for $1k

- idles great, runs strong

- all new shift bushings

- new fuel lines

- new tires all around

- new pedal bushings within the last year

- 0.0 rust

- paint is 8/10

- original paint in jambs, trunk, engine compartment

- brakes great

- driver's door pocket off, but is included

- front seats re-upholstered in leather

Koln-RS

3,864 posts

212 months

Friday 8th December 2017
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Pretty, but I don't think the '76 2.7S was one of Porsche's finest 911s, especially in US Spec.