Looking at a 964 C2

[Jay..]

RT964 said:

Just tried to PM you, but got an error message saying you weren't allowing emails ?

Woops, I've updated that!


I'm not interested in the cab or Targa versions, the aesthetics are important to me and I love the coupe.

I would definitely consider a C4, I would be looking to upgrade the suspension anyway, so this might be a good solution as there is a lot around.

[roygarth]

Jay.. said:

I would definitely consider a C4, I would be looking to upgrade the suspension anyway, so this might be a good solution as there is a lot around.

Make sure you take any C4 out for a spirited test drive before buying. 15+ years ago I didn't. Within 1 day of buying it I knew I'd made a mistake, sold it and bought a C2 - which I still own today! I found the understeer really took away too much from the enjoyment that a rear engine rear wheel drive 911 offers.

[Jay..]

roygarth said:

Make sure you take any C4 out for a spirited test drive before buying. 15+ years ago I didn't. Within 1 day of buying it I knew I'd made a mistake, sold it and bought a C2 - which I still own today! I found the understeer really took away too much from the enjoyment that a rear engine rear wheel drive 911 offers.

I feel like I wouldn't be comfortable test driving a car to that limit, especially with a car dealer telling me to be 'sensible'... Can the understeer not be tuned out with some better suspension?

I'm so stuck on deciding between a c2 and a c4... The c2 is so much rarer and ill likely end up with a worse car for more money

[Koln-RS]

The 964 was very early 4WD technology and, although initially well received, it was eventually judged to be less nimble than the C2, which started the myth that even subsequent C2 variants were always better than C4s, even though the opposite was often true.

Nevertheless, there have been several articles about tuning the C4 suspension to reduce the understeer and improving the handling balance, so definitely worth talking to some of the renowned specialists, inc Chris at Centre Gravity.

[Jay..]

Koln-RS said:

The 964 was very early 4WD technology and, although initially well received, it was eventually judged to be less nimble than the C2, which started the myth that even subsequent C2 variants were always better than C4s, even though the opposite was often true.

Nevertheless, there have been several articles about tuning the C4 suspension to reduce the understeer and improving the handling balance, so definitely worth talking to some of the renowned specialists, inc Chris at Centre Gravity.

I think I'd end up going down that route, which will cost a few grand, in which I should probably just invest in the "right" car to begin with!

[m33ufo]

Personally....I'd hold out a little longer. As a few have said, prices generally do appear to be softening, and more cars should hit the market as the weather improves.

Don't rush.

[Wozy68]

Jay.. said:

Koln-RS said:

The 964 was very early 4WD technology and, although initially well received, it was eventually judged to be less nimble than the C2, which started the myth that even subsequent C2 variants were always better than C4s, even though the opposite was often true.

Nevertheless, there have been several articles about tuning the C4 suspension to reduce the understeer and improving the handling balance, so definitely worth talking to some of the renowned specialists, inc Chris at Centre Gravity.

I think I'd end up going down that route, which will cost a few grand, in which I should probably just invest in the "right" car to begin with!

I owned a 964 C2. I know nowadays history has kind of rewritten the book on the 964 C2/C4 ............. moving them (and especially the C2) from being one of the worse handling 911s (Way too much understeer for example dialled in from new) to being 'last of the analogue' 911s (Which is utter bkss IMO), so now are classed as a great drivers car, which back in the day, they just were not........ not by journos or even owners of previous 911 models.

I always vented anger at the 964, because I basically thought out of the box they were crap. However I'm the first to admit that with 25 years of third party supply of suspension upgrades, the 964 C2/C4 can now it seems, be a fabulous 911 to drive, which is great to hear.

Anyway. The one thing that always stood out for me with my then 30K miler 964 C2, and still would today, is that on an unknown road I just felt that the C4 would have been a better car.

For all the talk of the revisions to the 964 compared to earlier models (and there were a lot), the rear suspension basicaly was still the same set up as the earlier cars ... but by then, the cars weight had grown and the rear setup was basically ancient technology.

So if I was in the market for a 964 today, and I was going to drive her from here to the moon and back on fabulous unknown roads, I'd be heading for a C4, without an absolute doubt. If I was going to track it or just drive quickly on roads that I know like the back of my hand, I'd have a C2.

As I like finding new roads, and I never really trusted the back end of my C2, it would be a C4 for me.......

HTH

[ras62]

The rear suspension of a 964 was the last 911 to use a trailing arm system and the first not to use torsion bars but to call it ancient technology is way of base. It is a great system and offers the 964 a more involving drive than the later cars albeit at the expense of more NVH which these days is seen as a bonus!

[RT964]

Jay.. said:

I feel like I wouldn't be comfortable test driving a car to that limit, especially with a car dealer telling me to be 'sensible'... Can the understeer not be tuned out with some better suspension?

I'm so stuck on deciding between a c2 and a c4... The c2 is so much rarer and ill likely end up with a worse car for more money

Yes, it's easy to do and, as mentioned in some of the posts above, there is a lot of choice on what you do and how much you spend depending on what your goals are. I spent a few hundred quid on the thicker anti-roll bar and fast road geometry set up, but you can also spend a good chunk more by replacing all the springs and dampers if you so desire !! The car used to understeer, but the majority of that was dialled out by this simple update.

Also, last week in the snow, the car was absolutely perfect, with no dramas whatsoever on a 200 mile road trip.

[roygarth]

Jay.. said:

roygarth said:

Make sure you take any C4 out for a spirited test drive before buying. 15+ years ago I didn't. Within 1 day of buying it I knew I'd made a mistake, sold it and bought a C2 - which I still own today! I found the understeer really took away too much from the enjoyment that a rear engine rear wheel drive 911 offers.

I feel like I wouldn't be comfortable test driving a car to that limit, especially with a car dealer telling me to be 'sensible'... Can the understeer not be tuned out with some better suspension?

I'm so stuck on deciding between a c2 and a c4... The c2 is so much rarer and ill likely end up with a worse car for more money

As Steve Rance (who knows his onions much, much more than I do) said earlier - why not try a C2 Targa? Similar money to a C4 Coupe and perhaps more fun, esp. with the roof off!

[Steve Rance]

I think your point about the cars in standard guise is a good one. The damping control is so awful that i can see why the added security of 4wd was an attraction. I can only assume that back in the day, motoring Journo's knew even less about chassis dynamics than they do now. With decent damping the situation gets a lot better for both cars but - after damping - the second most important mod to make is a set of Tarrett rose jointed spring plates (or similar). Not an expensive upgrade but fundamental as it pretty much removes all bumpsteer at the rear of the car - originally and quaintly known as the 'weissach effect' I believe. Once these modifications have been made, the 964 is transformed from a fat vaigue 'Mystic Meg' kind of a car into the epitomy of everything that is special about the 911. Throw out some weight - the classic RS carpet set, door cards etc.. and pole positions - and it gets even better. Once you get to this end of the tuning spectrum, the C2 becomes the better drive but the C4 would still be very rewarding.

[Wozy68]

ras62 said:

The rear suspension of a 964 was the last 911 to use a trailing arm system and the first not to use torsion bars but to call it ancient technology is way of base. It is a great system and offers the 964 a more involving drive than the later cars albeit at the expense of more NVH which these days is seen as a bonus!

Well we all have our difference of opinions, but in the earlier 911s I owned I thought the cars mostly felt light on their feet (even the SSE) and you knew exactly what the rear end was doing, on the 964 (well at least mine in standard trim) I did not, and never felt comfortable with it. If it had been previously pranged then fair enough, but it hadn't.

The reason I called it ancient technology was purely Porsche had basically used the same setup though greatly improved since the begining of the 911. It was not meant as a derogatory term however.

I have always thought it interesting that only up to around 10-12 years ago the 964 was seen as a pretty awful car to drive fast in the twisities compared to ealier and later 911s, and there was never any mention of it being a more involving car to drive than earlier or especially the later 993. I can only assume this is down to upgraded modern adjustable suspension being available.

I realise the 964 has been turned around, and from being the unloved earlier brother to the 993, now to the more 'analogue feel' and more appreciated than the 993. But this was never the case up until the model was around 15 years old, but this has since changed, and its to me at least, interesting why this should be.

If the OP is after a 964 happy days. I just feel the C4 has had even more bad press over the years, and point to point on unknown roads (with modern suspension) would feel the better car and I'd bet just as quick. (As long as Steve Rance wasn't driving the C2 that is )

Edited by Wozy68 on Monday 5th March 16:37

[n12maser]

Wozy68 said:

Anyway. The one thing that always stood out for me with my then 30K miler 964 C2, and still would today, is that on an unknown road I just felt that the C4 would have been a better car.
.......
As I like finding new roads, and I never really trusted the back end of my C2, it would be a C4 for me.......

From the other side of the fence when I had a 964 C4 manual I wished I had held out for a C2!! The steering was way heavier and less telepathic than the rwd 993 cab I had previously and I had constant fear of the unpredictable understeer throwing me into a ditch...just a ditch in front of me It nearly happened a couple of times (in the dry) where the car ploughed straight on at a tight corner in a country lane..luckily no one coming the other way, another time at Coppice, Donnington. Granted I at this point had no idea what trail braking was. But the point is that I don't think the C4 is foolproof to the relatively inexperienced driver either.

[ras62]

Good point on the C4, once the various diffs lock they can be tricky. Wozy you must see the irony of saying your early 911's felt light on their feet and you would only trust a C4 after your bad C2 experience. The C4 was born in response to the tail happy reputation gained by those earlier cars!

[Wozy68]

ras62 said:

Good point on the C4, once the various diffs lock they can be tricky. Wozy you must see the irony of saying your early 911's felt light on their feet and you would only trust a C4 after your bad C2 experience. The C4 was born in response to the tail happy reputation gained by those earlier cars!

Lol RAS. Yes I see it.

The early cars They just felt more predictable or is that they seemed to have more feel from the back. I’m more opened minded to it these days, that a sorted 964 C2 is a great car.

I’d suppose the dialled in understeer with the four wheel drive (and later C2) was developed to open the market for those that had never driven a rear engined car before, plus of course they had the Quattro to at least seem to counter. Great for sales for the general public, , but maybe not for at the time the puriest ...... let’s be honest, the C4 is 30 years old now, and they moved on massively with the four wheel drive system on the 993 and later models.

[porkey]

Just my 2p for what it is worth...
I had a C4 many years ago and a chap I know had a C2 at the same time. The C2 felt much lighter to drive.
The C4 had heavier steering and just felt less nimble all round.
On a positive note there wasn't much to choose in outright straight line speed.
Although the C2 always felt quicker, there was very little to choose between them on the open road.

[hot66]

With stock suspension ( which was probabally at its point where it needed replacing ) my C2 felt fine until I started pushing ... At that point I hated it as it just seemed to have no control or predictability . Almost sold the car within the 1st month of ownership .

Then fitted PSS10's and had an RS set up ... Car was like night and day. It's now a fantastic B road blaster. 2nd most fun 911 I've driven ( 1st being my long term 2.4S)

[Steve Rance]

My 964 is my favourite road hooner and huge fun on circuit too but please don’t discount a C4. 100 964’s for sale on PH and about 7 C2 manuals, all at the top of the price range. You can get a lovely C4 for a lot less. If you buy a C2 and build it well, it will be a wonderful thing but you can build a C4 to be light, nimble and a lot of fun too..

[rlg43p]

roygarth said:

Make sure you take any C4 out for a spirited test drive before buying. 15+ years ago I didn't. Within 1 day of buying it I knew I'd made a mistake, sold it and bought a C2 - which I still own today! I found the understeer really took away too much from the enjoyment that a rear engine rear wheel drive 911 offers.

I can’t really agree with this advice. I had a C4 and understeer was never a problem for me, despite some very hard driving.

It did have some new springs/shocks but at JZM’s recommendation I stuck with factory spec shocks.

Whatever car you consider buying do test drive to see how it drives. There are very noticeable differences depending on the state of the car.

These cars are very sensitive to the 4 wheel alignment setup. Once properly sorted my car was great, but it took 3 attempts to get it right. Two well known specialists with electronic systems couldn’t get it right and it was only when Bob Watson’s Team used older more traditional techniques did it get sorted once and for all.

What it does mean is that you can’t judge all C4s based on one used example, because it could be setup like st.

[Wozy68]

Just out of interest and must be the first time I’ve looked at 964 prices in at least six years .......

I’m absolutely gobsmacked what they’re advertised for. Blimey they are now serious dosh, even the cabs and targa C4 (nothing wrong with a C4 targa, but they were always the cheapest) are fetching serious money.

I should have kept my C2 manual coupe, not driven her but had her serviced every year. I could have retired on its value now.

Edited by Wozy68 on Monday 5th March 21:24